• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Israel runs away from nuclear summit

'Fairly good idea' doesn't equate to ambiguity to a degree? Also to the number?

If thats the case both britian and france have a nucelar ambiguity policy.

That's the point of the ambiguity and the low-profile of the program itself, to conceal capabilities.

Britian has created a fraudulent H-Bomb detonation.

No parades no. No nuclear missile bases either, which most of the nuclear power with active nuclear weapons are known to have.

Britian has no nuclear missile bases

So guilt before innocence, that's how it works in your corner of the world?

Ambiguity before innocence.
 
This is not an illustrious nor respectable group to plead special exemptions on behalf of.
Protip: All the signatories to the NPT are ignoble douchebags as well.

Although if your argument is that Israel should be more like the US and less like India, I'm open to the possibility that the US is better than other nations in some respects.
 
If thats the case both britian and france have a nucelar ambiguity policy.
Could very well be since there's different levels of ambiguity, ie public knowledge of their capabilities. Yet both the UK and France had conducted tests and have more than a general idea (compared to Israel) of the number and the capabilities of their nuclear arsenal.

Britian has created a fraudulent H-Bomb detonation.
Relevance? Especially since the UK has actually conducted tests.

Britian has no nuclear missile bases
Nope, just at least one Trident equipped sub roaming the sea with 48 nuclear warheads :)
 
Haven't you heard? There's lots of Jeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwssssss in Israel...

Uh oh...Wildcat has played the Jew Card!!

Everyone take a step back now, we don't wanna be called anti-Semites. This topic might get reported to the ADL internet Blitz squad.
 
Last edited:
And Israel? What do you personally think Israel's reasoning is to have a nuclear program?

A good question. I have no idea why Israel wants or needs nuclear weapons, if anything they are generally a liability, militarily and politically, for them.
I can see how they might have seemed a necessary deterrent balancing conventional military inequities perceived in the '60s and '70s, but this ain't then, and their current conventional military capabilities make them more than equal to any combination of potential enemies and coalitions.

The last decade or two, Israeli nuclear capability seems to have been used more to intimidate regional and global political issues than as a purely defensive deterrent to annhilation. I certainly don't believe that Israel is a rogue nation, but within the larger international community of nations they are much more shifted to that end of the spectrum than most major nuclear powers, and in my opinion the situation has worsened over the last couple of decades rather than improved.

>Bit more to India's and N. Korea's nuclear stance than what you stated, although it does cover the brunt of its motivations.

Actually, there's a lot more to it, but without going back to look at the results of all the UK colonial empire mistakes and problems of the last century that have little to do with nuclear weapons, I'm not sure detailing them will help to clarify the issue with regards to India and Pakistan, and in the case of NK, it really doesn't get a whole lot more complicated than what I stated. If it helps, I don't consider any of these nations to have valid and reasonable reasons to be non-signatories to the NPT, or to be excluded from international law, treaties and standards, nor with regards to US policy toward nations in violation of these laws treaties and standards. Of course, we've got a lot of hypocrisy to get rid of if we are going to achieve any consistency with regards to this type of stance.


I'm not sure that this article adds much to the discussion, especially with regards to the Israeli weapons program, but would be interested in how you link the two.
 
And Israel? What do you personally think Israel's reasoning is to have a nuclear program?

well, early on, Israel could legitimately argue that they needed nukes to protect their very survival.

but now, I have no doubt that Israel would use them in any war where they felt they might lose the Golan or even 50% of the West Bank.

nukes have gone from a weapon of survival..to a weapon of intimidation..for Israel.

for the most part, Israel can do whatever it wants, without fear is any serious consequences from its Muslim neighbors. they could deport 20,000 Palestinians to the Sinai Desert, and fear no strong military response from the Arabs.

nukes are a great weapon of intimidation for Israel. I hope Pakistan helps Egypt or Jordan get the bomb.
 
Last edited:
The last decade or two, Israeli nuclear capability seems to have been used more to intimidate regional and global political issues than as a purely defensive deterrent to annhilation.

I'm curious, can you think of examples of Israel using its nuclear capability to "intimidate regional and global political issues" in the last decade or two? I can't remember anything...
 
i think the Middle East could profit from "mutually assured destruction".

And MAD works when people aren't religous fanatics.

An atheistic USSR could be disuaded from launching attacks that would be suicidal as they had no delusions of floating up to join Marx in the afterlife. Are we so sure that will hold true for the Middle East?
 
If thats the case both britian and france have a nucelar ambiguity policy.
Well, yes. Only Britain and France don't seem to have their nuclear research scientists losing their US visas recently.

Britian has created a fraudulent H-Bomb detonation.
And yet Britain doesn't seem to be on Obama's nuclear diss-list at the moment.


Britian has no nuclear missile bases
Neither does Israel.

Ambiguity before innocence.
So after going to all this trouble to establish a moral equivalence between Israel, Britain, and France, do you care to explain why Israel is singled out for special abuse, when it is--according to you--no less innocent than these other two nations?
 
Your solution to prevent proliferation is....proliferation?

That's good proliferation. It puts the uppity Jews, who were intimidating their neighbors, back in their place.

Of course the theory is nonsense because if Israel has a bomb the theory was not intimidation -- Israel never "intimidated" anybody with its nukes, indeed it never recognized it has nukes -- but as a last-ditch insurance policy against the Arab plan to destroy it.
 
i think the Middle East could profit from "mutually assured destruction".

I'm sure that if the situation were reversed -- if the Arab world had the bomb first, and Israel were trying to catch up and develop one too -- you'd be all enthusiastic about it and supportive of the Israeli nuclear project, to make sure "MAD" is possible.
 
A good question. I have no idea why Israel wants or needs nuclear weapons, if anything they are generally a liability, militarily and politically, for them.
I can see how they might have seemed a necessary deterrent balancing conventional military inequities perceived in the '60s and '70s, but this ain't then, and their current conventional military capabilities make them more than equal to any combination of potential enemies and coalitions.
So you're stating that all the regional countries don't have conventional military advantages over Israel? Its readily apparent that the combined forces of the regional powers will always have a conventional advantage over Israel and since there continue to exist hostile elements within these countries that hold sway over the populace, ie voting power, there will always be this threat. If the regional powers and their constituents do a complete 180, then I would see where this need for nuclear ambiguity and power overall would be declared pointless and an unneccesary liability.

Nuclear power always carries liabilities, whether in the UK, US, India, Pakistan or Israel (albeit more with Pakistan than any other country). As things stand currently, removing the nuclear power capabilities of Israel would prove to be less beneficial and more of a liability to Israel than actually having them.

Personally, I believe the UK has a significantly less justification for its nuclear program and to have a nuclear sub running around the sea with 48 nuclear warheads, than Israel to have an ambiguous stance when it comes to its nuclear weapons capability. And contrary to NPT standards, the UK is improving its nuclear weapons capabilties.

The last decade or two, Israeli nuclear capability seems to have been used more to intimidate regional and global political issues than as a purely defensive deterrent to annhilation. I certainly don't believe that Israel is a rogue nation, but within the larger international community of nations they are much more shifted to that end of the spectrum than most major nuclear powers, and in my opinion the situation has worsened over the last couple of decades rather than improved.
As Giz already asked, where does this intimidation lie? And what political issues are you referring to? Iran? I'm sure Iran is not complaining after the Osirak reactor was destroyed in 1980 (after Iran tried and failed months before) of their loving neighbor Iraq. But then again, this was more of an actual and immediate threat since it dealt with Saddam who has quite the extensive history of threatening its neighbors, actually using non-conventional weaponry against his neighbors and his own people, and financing and proliferation to terrorist groups.

This ties in with the above as well, since the need for a deterrance still exists even if proxy warfare is the centerpiece of countries like Iran and Syria more so than the threat of a (yet another) massive invasion by Israel's neighbors. Removing Israel's nuclear capabilities would do next to nothing in deterring Iran's and Syria's pursuit of nuclear power. Israel's position of nuclear ambiguity has not forced countries like Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia to pursue a nuclear program either, since, and correct me if I'm wrong, these countries don't see Israel's nuclear power as a threat to their country's security for the last 40+ years. Iran and Syria, on the other hand, do, hence the aforementioned countries desire to develop their own nuclear programs. No coincidence there.

If it helps, I don't consider any of these nations to have valid and reasonable reasons to be non-signatories to the NPT, or to be excluded from international law, treaties and standards, nor with regards to US policy toward nations in violation of these laws treaties and standards. Of course, we've got a lot of hypocrisy to get rid of if we are going to achieve any consistency with regards to this type of stance.
Signatories of NPT hold little sway over non-NPT countries like India and Israel in terms of their arguments against non-NPT countries (except Pakistan to a degree) for not joining the NPT community. NPT countries have not abided or solved the same issues that were brought up when NPT was first put together in the 1970s, apart from decreasing the nuclear warheads stored from several thousand to a few thousand, and yes, ceasing with physical testing (which Israel doesn't do either), rather opting for virtual, supercomputer testing of its nuclear weapons and tweaking their physical weapons from these results. An additional issue with NPT signatories are presented with recently is the issue of security over their existing nuclear materials, which Israel doesn't have an issue with. US has several hundred nuclear weapons and storage facilities in EU countries as well.

US's arguments against non-NPT countries like Israel would thus seem to be a futile practice in hypocrisy which I would guess is one of the reasons why the US refuses to do so.

I'm not sure that this article adds much to the discussion, especially with regards to the Israeli weapons program, but would be interested in how you link the two.
Pretty straightforward. The threats presented in that article as perceived by India are the same threats that Israel sees as a justification for its nuclear program. Short of a public display of power by detonating nukes by Israel, the threat of Iran and Syria (to which Pakistan, China, and North Korea have been willing benefactors to, from providing nuclear warhead capable ballistic missiles, crude nuclear weapon designs, nuclear material refining/weaponizing technology, etc.) can be roughly equated to the threats China and Pakistan posed to India in the non-conventional sense.

Judging by the fact that India is almost 160 times larger than Israel, non-conventional threats, predominantly with irradiated (dirty) and biological bombs, would do significantly more damage to Israel compared to India. The nuclear deterrance of Israel against Iranian/Syrian funded/trained/financed proxy terrorist groups crossing the threshold from conventional to non-conventional is enough just cause in Israel keeping this deterrance and thus its position of nuclear ambiguity.
 
Last edited:
TShaitanaku and Bigjelmapro:

You obviously disagree, but the disagreement is about facts. So the discussion is for a change actually polite and to the point which each person presenting arguments.

Stop this at once or both of you will be banned! This is the Politics section!
 
Then reread Skeptic. I make the effort of reading through your diatribes that often don't fit in to many of the threads you post in. These are facts, respond to those, or just play the role of observer, as in don't post this pointless BS of yours.
 
Its readily apparent that the combined forces of the regional powers will always have a conventional advantage over Israel

readily apparent to who? Every time fighting has broken out in the past Israel has kicked their arses. Why do you imagine it would change?

It often amazes me how the far right in Israel are such defeatists, always spreading the opinion that Israel would be wiped out.
 
I'm curious, can you think of examples of Israel using its nuclear capability to "intimidate regional and global political issues" in the last decade or two? I can't remember anything...

Well, history and geopolitical influence aren't restricted to the last decade or two (which takes us all the way back to 1990!), nor to the limits of your personal memory or knowledge.

"Samson Option," by Seymor Hersh is one good reference on the issue.
U.S. Army Lt. Col. Warner D. Farr's "The Third Temple Holy of Holies; Israel's Nuclear Weapons" is a handy supplemental.

But we don't have to go to investigative journalists or military analysts and their compilations for evidences and supports of their interpretations, when many israeli leaders and diplomats have actually stated all on their own. Former Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres has admitted that nuclear weapons are used by Israel for non-conventional compellance.

"acquiring a superior weapons system would mean the possibility of using it for compellent purposes - that is, forcing the other side to accept Israeli political demands" (http://books.google.com/books?id=3ManhNWW7AIC&pg=PA241&lpg=PA241&dq=%22acquiring+a+superior+weapons+system+would+mean+the+possibility+of+using+it+for+compellent+purposes+%22&source=bl&ots=LGszHrw2ik&sig=IJrkhIL99g7UE93JFGYlY6ueDPk&hl=en&ei=pdfXS9TZOJSGswOev8SnBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CA8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22acquiring%20a%20superior%20weapons%20system%20would%20mean%20the%20possibility%20of%20using%20it%20for%20compellent%20purposes%20%22&f=false)
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom