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The Deluge

David Henson said:
Up to 15 cubits (22 ft / 6.5 m) of water overwhelmed them. (Genesis 7:20)

It was a global deluge.
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Are you familiar with marine geologist Robert Ballard's work on the flooding of the Black Sea at the end of the last ice age?

We know how legends and mythology are born and there is no geological evidence of a global deluge.
 
Parent Isotope Stable Daughter Product Currently Accepted Half-Life Values

Uranium-238 Lead-206 4.5 billion years
Uranium-235 Lead-207 704 million years
Thorium-232 Lead-208 14.0 billion years
Rubidium-87 Strontium-87 48.8 billion years
Potassium-40 Argon-40 1.25 billion years
Samarium-147 Neodymium-143 106 billion years

Paul

:) :) :)
 
David Henson said:
What evidence do you have that the Bible flood was a fictional event?
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The complete lack of geological evidence for a global deluge, the multiple contradictory accounts in the book of Genesis, the claim that a bronze age family built a vessel that modern naval architects say is impossible. The fact that you couldn't fit two of every species in a vessel of the described size even if, as Trick once remarked, you froze them and stacked them...

I believe that there is no possible way you and most of this forum will take a discussion of the flood seriously because you already have uninformed preconceived notions that are not dependent upon anything remotely resembling appropriate evidence because "credible sources" are the dogmatic propositions from science that confirms your preconceived notions. If, and I mean if, science has anything at all to say about it. If I am wrong show me the evidence that science has accumulated regarding the Biblical deluge.
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The evidence is not there. There is literally zero geological evidence of a global flood. Period. Your only evidence is a bronze age myth. Where is the actual physical evidence of the flood?
 
David Henson said:
According to Bible chronology the flood took place in 2370 B.C.E.

How accurate is the measuring of millions of years ago which you bolded?

What do you think they use to determine millions of years? The Uranium-Lead clock? The rock has to be free from lead at the beginning, which is usually not the case. We have to assume that it was sealed, which is sometimes not the case. Lead or uranium can seep into groundwater. Sedementary rock can absorb more. Thorium can slowly disintegrate into lead. Then there is the second isotope which decays at a different rate, also forming lead.

The Potassium-Argon Clock, you say? The potassium must be free of argon when the mineral is formed. The system must be sealed for the duration, as with the Uranium-Lead clock.

The Rubidium-Strontium Clock? The decay of rubidium is so incredibly slow that its half-life can't be measured with accuracy from counting beta rays from its decay. Not a completey indipendent method.

When measuring occurs under ideal conditions these tests compare with one another but that is usually not the case.
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Is it your contention that absolutely every dating measurement made for any geological event has been off by a magnitude of millions of years? We can talk about various method's accuracy, but for your flood to be accurate, absolutely every measurement we have ever made of any geological activity, or biological finds, or anthroplogy needs to be wrong. Not just inaccurate but vastly and profoundly wrong.

That is a very bold claim.

The possible inaccuracies that you've lifted from some critique of dating methods (ignoring for the moment, the reliability of those claims), if you understood them, you would know that they wouldn't account for the difference in time scale that your claim requires, and errors due to the factors you cite would have made it impossible for different dating methods of the same sample to be so much in agreement.

Essentially, your critique is sort of like saying that since home thermometers are not all terribly accurate and it's easy to misuse them, then when I thought I was running a temperature of 102 last winter, it is very possible that I was actually running 200 million degrees.
 
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David Henson said:
Sedimentary rock can absorb more. Thorium can slowly disintegrate into lead. Then there is the second isotope which decays at a different rate, also forming lead.
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Such dating techniques are not used on large pieces of sedimentary rock, but on individual bits of rock.

The Potassium-Argon Clock, you say? The potassium must be free of argon when the mineral is formed. The system must be sealed for the duration, as with the Uranium-Lead clock.
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Rocks do not absorb argon. The only possible source of argon in a rock is radioactive decay, as argon is not water-soluble, magma-soluble, absorbable, nor adsorbable. It does not form compounds which can contaminate minerals, and it does not stick to anything.

If you want evidence, I can guide you to several books on chemistry, which contain a great deal of information about the noble gases, of which argon is one. I've worked with it quite a bit, simply because it does not react with anything.
 
paximperium said:
How high is Colorado?
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6,800 ft. In the central east west valley of Jezreel it starts at about 300 and goes to 390 ft. Are you suggesting a flood needed to be 300 - to 6,800 ft in order to be possible? What evidence is there that those elevations might have been much lower in ancient times?
 
David Henson said:
6,800 ft. In the central east west valley of Jezreel it starts at about 300 and goes to 390 ft. Are you suggesting a flood needed to be 300 - to 6,800 ft in order to be possible? What evidence is there that those elevations might have been much lower in ancient times?
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2370 B.C.E. is anything but ancient times.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
David Henson said:
6,800 ft. In the central east west valley of Jezreel it starts at about 300 and goes to 390 ft. Are you suggesting a flood needed to be 300 - to 6,800 ft in order to be possible? What evidence is there that those elevations might have been much lower in ancient times?
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Isn't 300 feet much much higher than 22 feet?

Anything yet on biblical passages specifying a canopy of water vapour or thorium?
 
David Henson said:
6,800 ft. In the central east west valley of Jezreel it starts at about 300 and goes to 390 ft. Are you suggesting a flood needed to be 300 - to 6,800 ft in order to be possible? What evidence is there that those elevations might have been much lower in ancient times?
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None

http://www.mountainnature.com/geology/platetectonics.htm

The Rocky mountains were formed over a period of millions of years starting about 175 million years ago.

You will not find a single geologist with any real understanding of plate tectonics who believes it is possible for these elevations to have formed within the past 5,000 years.
 
David Henson said:
God being infinite is not particularly relevant. Does science support the possiblity of there being a time in earth's history when the earth was flater with mountians that were not as tall?

"Where the mountains of the world now tower to dizzy heights, oceans and plains once, millions of years ago, stretched out in flat monotony. .*.*. The movements of the continental plates cause the land both to rear up to heights where only the hardiest of animals and plants can survive and, at the other extreme, to plunge and lie in hidden splendor deep beneath the surface of the sea." - The Neck of the Giraffe, by Francis Hitching, 1982, p.*19.
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Hitching is a crackpot and a liar. He is, however, correct when he states that present day mountains often rose from once flat plains. But this doesn't mean that the entire surface of the earth was once flat. The Appalachian Mountains were as tall as the Rockies millions of years prior to the claimed global flood.
 
stilicho said:
Isn't 300 feet much much higher than 22 feet?

Anything yet on biblical passages specifying a canopy of water vapour or thorium?
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Are you suggesting that at an elevation of 300 ft there has to be a 300 foot wall of water to categorize a flood?

Genesis 1:6-7 / 2 Peter 3:5-6
 
David Henson said:
what?!
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Enki was a Sumerian god. The question was referencing the Epic of Gilgamesh which contains a story of a great flood similar to that in Genesis. A story that the exiled Hebrews would have been exposed to around the time that the Tanakh was most likely compiled/composed.
 
MarekM said:
How did host-specific diseases survive the flood?
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David Henson said:
How would they normally survive?
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Wow! Deluded, cowardly, AND has the vocabulary of a rock.

I'll try to use small words to explain: host-specific diseases affect only certain types of lifeforms. The germs that cause those disease needs those lifeforms to live and reproduce. If the lifeforms were all killed in your flood, how did these diesases survive?

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html#survival

Unless you want to claim that the clean-living Noah and his family were acting as biological arks and carrying gonorrhea, chlamydia, HPV, and trichomoniasis, and syphilis.
 
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Cavemonster said:
You will not find a single geologist with any real understanding of plate tectonics who believes it is possible for these elevations to have formed within the past 5,000 years.
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I am kind of a n00b to this thread but I don't understand the back-and-forth references between scripture and science textbooks.

I see references to thorium, a magnificently dense canopy of water vapour, and now plate tectonics, as though these things are actually written out in somewhere in the Old Testament.

Are all the religion threads as silly as this one is becoming?
 
stilicho said:
Are all the religion threads as silly as this one is becoming?
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Most of them.

There is actually a better quality of apologist out there who are actually worth debating, but most people who come here to defend religion are the cranks.
 
David Henson said:
Are you suggesting that at an elevation of 300 ft there has to be a 300 foot wall of water to categorize a flood?

Genesis 1:6-7 / 2 Peter 3:5-6
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He's suggesting that, if at 300 feet, there is a flood with the waters 22 feet high, then at 6800 feet, there will be no flood.

If you're flooding Colorado at 6800 feet, then the 300-foot elevation parts of the world will be 6500 feet under water.

Unless you're suggesting that the water stacks up on the mountains instead of flowing, so everything has an even 22 feet of water on it.
 
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