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Derren Brown Show

arthwollipot said:
If the audience is yourself, then the goal can be improvement of skills. But if there's an audience at all, what is the purpose of doing magic?
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In the broad sense, and the sense to which I really adhere: it is to entertain the audience. But there are some points to consider.

1. To be pedantic, the purpose may, in fact, be to sell products, either the performer's products or a company's products. Some of the most financially successful magicians don't primarily perform for audiences in the sense you are used to but instead make very lucrative livings performing almost exclusively at trade shows. In those venues, the entertainment is secondary to succesfully pitching the trademark.

2. Even if the purpose is to entertain, that only applies externally and only because one wants to assure a next audience. There may be, in fact, magicians who perform because it pleases them (one hopes most are like this) and that entertainment of the audience is secondary. Actually, I think it is a sad fact that, in my experience, the majority of amateur performers fit in this category in a bad way. Look what I can do! as opposed to Are you having fun?

3. Again, even if entertainment is the purpose, Chris H's point is not entirely incorrect in that there are better (presentations of) effects than others. I liken it to productions on Broadway. "Seussical" is an entertaining little play, even a good one, but it's no "Phantom" or "Les Miserables" or even "Noises Off!"
 
I wish...
I could have been around to hear Charlie Parker play 27 choruses on "how high the moon" changes, see Ben Hogan swing a golf club, or even When JFK was Shot. But I'm too young for that.

I'm also equally too young to have seen Dai Vernon, or Slydini, or Cardini.

Where are my modern icons? Tiger Woods is a good start, for the golfer, but who next?

If a DB sort of character fills the void, then at some level I so want to welcome the arrival that I may fail to check my wallet and my watch, and not "look sharp" ala Joe Jackson.
 
I think DB does fill the void, though I'm less certain about some of his latest stuff, and if you stay in the Mentalism realm, it's easy to find a few others. Max Maven is considered top of the art (though personally-while I love his ideas and effects-I find his performance persona offputting), as is Banachek. Richard Osterlind, for my money, is as good a thinker in the field as anyone, and as good a performer, too, except in metal bending where Banachek is untouchable.

The interesting bit about those four is that they all have bodies of published work that are classics, or should be. Banacheck's first book ranks up there with Corrinda, though in a different sense; his third book received the same great reviews but is not a classic, imo. Maven wrote more than one classic. Everything Derren Brown has written has been a classic, and a first edition of his first book will fetch you more than a first edition of any of the others.

I'm on less sure footing when discussing traditional magic, but there are living legends out there whom it is still possible to see perform. Lorayne, McBride (in his younger days; I don't care for his more recent performance pieces), Paul Harris, Marty Polio (as much or more a comedian as a magician, but excellent at both). Others.

Of those, I only possess manuscripts by Lorayne and Harris, but they both produced classics. No one, and I do mean no one, writes more clearly--and yet interestingly--than Harry Lorayne when it comes to describing magic, and he always presents only the central issues. Paul Harris' three volume opus is spectacular.

Ah, well. Now I'm rambling. The point is, there are masters out there, sometimes where you don't expect them. My single favorite magical moment remains one I have described on these fora before and involves watching a countertop demonstration of Chameleon Coins by the owner of Zeezo's in Colorado Springs. It was astonishing in its brazen simplicity and devastating impact.
 
Forgot to mention Cyril. My only knowledge of him is through Youtube, but man I would pay a lot to see him in person.

Other icons abound: Tamariz, Riggs, Maue (I'd pay a lot to see him, too). There are more.
 
I'm going to mention someone who had influenced me at a young age to study what was and what was not possible. He has had an overall beneficial affect on my life. I've seen him perform at least 7 times and never felt cheated. He is an excellent entertainer in that he gives everything he has at every performance. He also was very nice to me the couple of times I met him (I have a photo of him with his arm around me when I was 11 and he was pretty honest when I asked him questions). He was a favorite of Johnny Carson. Randi mentioned in his book about Geller that this guy wasn't someone who cheated people. He only performs for large paying audiences and never does "readings" or any stealing money woo. Half his show is a fairly typical hypnosis act yet he unfailing states there is no such thing as hypnosis and it is all suggestion. He has written a number of books (his first book which I have a signed copy is only 6 feet from where I write this) that does indeed contain misleading statements about ESP but very informative information about the nature of suggestion.

No cheating. Guess the mentalist before looking below....















The Amazing Kreskin!

Yeah, I know he has lost a step after he turned 70 and he did make me believe in woo when I was young but he made me believe I could perform woo myself and when i went to Lou Tannen's magic shop and purchased an encyclopedia of mentalism I learned how even a sharp 13 year old like myself got tricked.

The brilliance of Kreskin is he can do a show for thousands without a single stooge. He only needs his clipboard. The paper, pencils, plastic bags the audience uses can be bought by the theatre before he gets off the plane with his small suitcase.

His show is an amazing demonstration of minimalism and suggestion. No one can perform hellstronism like Kreskin. When Kreskin does his suggestion (hypnosis) part of the show he really makes it fun because of his personality. The guy is as professional as they come.
 
I barely remember as a little kid in the 70s seeing Kreskin on something like the Merv Griffin or Michael Douglas network talkshows. His overall look, with the big glasses as I recall, remains in my mind. Randi mentions him in the books I have, and doesn't seem to "out" him as a fraud, which seems to me high praise coming from the Amazing Randi at that time. All that makes me think you're right, Kreskin must have been pretty darn good.
 
BPScooter said:
I barely remember as a little kid in the 70s seeing Kreskin on something like the Merv Griffin or Michael Douglas network talkshows. His overall look, with the big glasses as I recall, remains in my mind. Randi mentions him in the books I have, and doesn't seem to "out" him as a fraud, which seems to me high praise coming from the Amazing Randi at that time. All that makes me think you're right, Kreskin must have been pretty darn good.
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Kreskin was a regular on the Douglas and Merv shows not because he was a cold reader but because he was menatalist -- not a woo. He did the equivalent of magic tricks. Penn Jillette has admitted to being caught up with Kreskin's ability when he was young and Penn states he has a low opinion of Kreskin because he was fooled as a youngster. I think that Penn and I have something in common -- we both knew Kreskin stated his show was plain magic and suggestion and when we researched mentalism we learned what really was possible. Kreskin did us a favor. We both wanted to be him and learned through research he was just an entertainer.

Kreskin has actually gone woo in his old age. Look back and look at Kreskin thirty five years ago to see how he was a positive in his glory days.
 
Garrette said:
In the broad sense, and the sense to which I really adhere: it is to entertain the audience. But there are some points to consider.

1. To be pedantic, the purpose may, in fact, be to sell products, either the performer's products or a company's products. Some of the most financially successful magicians don't primarily perform for audiences in the sense you are used to but instead make very lucrative livings performing almost exclusively at trade shows. In those venues, the entertainment is secondary to succesfully pitching the trademark.

2. Even if the purpose is to entertain, that only applies externally and only because one wants to assure a next audience. There may be, in fact, magicians who perform because it pleases them (one hopes most are like this) and that entertainment of the audience is secondary. Actually, I think it is a sad fact that, in my experience, the majority of amateur performers fit in this category in a bad way. Look what I can do! as opposed to Are you having fun?

3. Again, even if entertainment is the purpose, Chris H's point is not entirely incorrect in that there are better (presentations of) effects than others. I liken it to productions on Broadway. "Seussical" is an entertaining little play, even a good one, but it's no "Phantom" or "Les Miserables" or even "Noises Off!"
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Actually, the worst magicians of all are saying "Hey ladies! I'm a really interesting, yet mysterious guy! Please go home with me!"

I think all of the males in here are guilty of this at least once, I'm afraid.
 
littlehulkster said:
Actually, the worst magicians of all are saying "Hey ladies! I'm a really interesting, yet mysterious guy! Please go home with me!"

I think all of the males in here are guilty of this at least once, I'm afraid.
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Once? That's the opening line of my act... :-D
 
littlehulkster said:
Actually, the worst magicians of all are saying "Hey ladies! I'm a really interesting, yet mysterious guy! Please go home with me!"

I think all of the males in here are guilty of this at least once, I'm afraid.
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vIQleS said:
Once? That's the opening line of my act... :-D
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That may not exactly be what Derren Brown thinks but that is why I hoped to become a magician at 7 years old. Ironically the few long term girlfriends I have had did not like magic.

That doesn't mean I ever go to a bar without at least being armed with a thumb tip.
 
Senex said:
That may not exactly be what Derren Brown thinks but that is why I hoped to become a magician at 7 years old. Ironically the few long term girlfriends I have had did not like magic.

That doesn't mean I ever go to a bar without at least being armed with a thumb tip.
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Pfft - Amateur...

If you can't walk into a bar completely unarmed and be able to do at least 5 or 6 good magic tricks, then I'm sorry but I'm going to have to revoke your sleazy magician membership card...

:-P
 
Senex said:
I look forward to seeing your unarmed bare-handed cigarette vanish that I can do anytime a cigarette is offending me. :D
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Please, if you can't get at least a very shallow lady, you're a bad magician! Packs of cards aren't much bigger than cigarettes, so they don't expect much until the hammer of incredibility strikes.

At the very least, I've broken the ice with a few ladies using tricks. After that point, even being Criss Angel won't help you, it's all on your charisma.

That said, a good magician has charisma in spades. That's how you make a regular trick into something special.
 
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Senex said:
I look forward to seeing your unarmed bare-handed cigarette vanish that I can do anytime a cigarette is offending me. :D
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I can put a cigarette out on my tongue... Does that count?

:-D

I'm sure girls would be impressed by that - right?
 
I agree DBs farcical lottery 'prediction (presumably using a split camera) was a change from his usual routine, although perhaps some diversion of attention was used. What annoyed me, is that he then claimed that the wisdom of the crowd can be used to predict the numbers better than individuals. Of course it cannot.
 
Chris H said:
Go to any of Derren Browns shows and you'll see that he goes to extraordinary lengths to prove that stooges aren't used. Every audience member is selected via a throw of a soft toy or frisbee. He's good, but I don't imagine that magic boy is a world champion frisbee thrower, and as a magician, I'm more than convinced that no stooges are used. Copperfield however...
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The clips on youtube aren't from those shows, but from television productions, and not all of those include a denial of using stooges. I've yet to see on a public forum anyone Derren's randomly selected give their own full description of what occurred. A non-stooge should have no problem with that. If Bob Klase thinks that Derren doesn't stoop to camera/video trickery, perhaps he's not seen Derren's lame "prediction" of the UK lottery draw.
 
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