Split Thread O'Reilly, Olberman, and other left-vs-right commentators.

[LostAngeles]

R.M.

What does that sentence mean to you?

We hanged people for waterboarding.

Which we did as part of the International Military Tribunal. We hung those who ordered the waterboarding, among other things. As with the Nuremberg Trials, we went after those who ordered the atrocities.

She said this in the context of Dick Cheney admitting to ordering the waterboarding.

Which is torture.

Which is illegal.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

There's been a lot of fact checking about the claim, "we hanged Japanese war criminals for waterboarding."

Here are some links to the folks who went to the trouble to fact check:
Mark Hemingway from the National Review Online (NRO) argued hangings were for lots of things including waterboarding but also noted some people who waterboarded were not hanged. But that doesn't tell us if they participated at different levels.

Paul Begala (CNN & Huffington Post) rebutted the NRO article and argues McCain said it and PolitFact checked on the facts and agreed.


But let's get back to the thread issue, that is, because Maddow repeated a claim which was arguable mainly on semantic grounds, this is supposed to be the big example that deceit by Maddow is equivalent to the deceit (or errors if you consider deceit has to be a purposeful lie) of Hannity and Beck.

This particular semantic error was only a distraction from the facts in the first place. It's like trying to argue a sidetrack so no one will notice the reason for the statement, "the US hung people for waterboarding", was specifically to point out waterboarding was considered torture by US law after WWII.

Does the fact the US hung people for war crimes that included waterboarding rather than the fact the US hung people for waterboarding mean waterboarding was only questionably torture under US law? No. And wasn't that the real issue? Yes. So Maddow was correct where it mattered, waterboarding was easily found in US case law and was illegal. Bush attorneys were lying or derelict in their duty when they gave Bush a letter excusing war crimes claiming the acts weren't clearly illegal.

Fact: Waterboarding was defined as torture in US trials in cases against Japanese soldiers after WWII.

Whether or not it was, by itself, punishable by death, can be viewed as an exaggeration of the severity with which the law viewed the torture, but it doesn't change the fact it was considered torture under US law. And that was the issue under discussion. Arguing the semantics of Maddow or Begala is a typical example of the Republican propaganda machine trying to distract people from the fact Bush committed war crimes as defined by US law and his attorneys helped cover the crime.

At worst Maddow exaggerated the severity of waterboarding as torture severity goes (by a semantic error), and at best waterboarding is punishable by death but doesn't carry a mandatory death sentence. Not all murder cases get the death penalty either while murder can be punishable by the death penalty, it isn't always. It is still murder and waterboarding regardless of the punishment, is still defined as torture in US case law.

 

[Cicero]

We hanged people for waterboarding.

Which we did as part of the International Military Tribunal. We hung those who ordered the waterboarding, among other things. As with the Nuremberg Trials, we went after those who ordered the atrocities.

She said this in the context of Dick Cheney admitting to ordering the waterboarding.

Which is torture.

Which is illegal.

It was those "other things" that resulted in the death penalty, not Count 54. Maddow failed to mention those "other things" in her diatribe. Ole Raychill neglected to mention this salient fact:

"All seven sentenced to death were found to be guilty of inciting or otherwise implicated in mass-scale atrocities, among other counts."


None of those Seven (7) hanged were charged and convicted only of count 54. In fact, Hirota was charged with , but not convicted of, Count 54, and he was sentenced to death. Obviously, Count 54 was not the death penalty count. Those who were convicted of Count 54 also were found guilty of six six (6) or seven (7) war crimes and it was those convictions that resulted in the death penalty.

Matsui was only convicted of Count 55 and he received the death penalty.

I found no listings of anyone who was convicted of Count 54 and not hanged.
LostAngeles

That is some trick bag you are working out of. Did you find anyone convicted only on Count 54 that was hanged? Did you find anyone not convicted of Count 54 that was hanged? Yes? Puzzling. Yet, Maddow doesn't even mention Count 54 (or any other Count for that matter), only the act of "waterboarding." That is where she gets into trouble.

Unless Maddow can name anyone who was solely convicted of Count 54 and received the death penalty, she is guilty of perpetuating a total fabrication to further her agenda. She might as well have said that Ted Bundy was electrocuted for biting a women on the ass.

All that link gives me is one charge and selected specifications on that charge and says nothing to support your assertion that Asano was tried under the same guidelines. LostAngeles

There was only the one (1) charge. What guidelines? Raychill Maddow's guidelines? They didn't exist in any of the post WWII trials. Asano was tried by the Americans. You know, the same ones Maddow says hanged Japanese convicted of "waterboarding" alone. Where does Maddow even mention Count 54 in her rant? Maddow doesn't even say "ordered waterboarding;" she says "waterboarding." Did Cheney actually perform "waterboarding" on the three detainees? She makes a blanket statement that the United States hung Japanese convicted of "waterbaording." Obviously, when that was the only charge, nobody was hanged for it.

 

[Minadin]

A couple of points:

1. It doesn't look to me like we can show that these people were 'hung for waterboarding' because of the variety of things lumped together in that 'charge 54', of which it would seem that if you were guilty of 1 of those sub-headings, you could be found guilty of the charge, and because of the other counts of which these folks were found guilty. Therefore Maddow's statement is incorrect.

2. It seems pretty darned clear that we (the International community, the USA, etc) considered waterboarding to be a war-crime which deserved punishment. This is evidenced by the fact that it is included among the various sub-crimes in charge 54. If we considered something a war crime back in the late 40's, one would think we would at least follow that example as a minimum standard today.

 

[LostAngeles]

It was those "other things" that resulted in the death penalty, not Count 54. Maddow failed to mention those "other things" in her diatribe. Ole Raychill neglected to mention this salient fact:

"All seven sentenced to death were found to be guilty of inciting or otherwise implicated in mass-scale atrocities, among other counts."


None of those Seven (7) hanged were charged and convicted only of count 54. In fact, Hirota was charged with , but not convicted of, Count 54, and he was sentenced to death. Obviously, Count 54 was not the death penalty count. Those who were convicted of Count 54 also were found guilty of six six (6) or seven (7) war crimes and it was those convictions that resulted in the death penalty.

Matsui was only convicted of Count 55 and he received the death penalty.

Unless Maddow can name anyone who was solely convicted of Count 54 and received the death penalty, she is guilty of perpetuating a total fabrication to further her agenda. She might as well have said that Ted Bundy was electrocuted for biting a women on the ass.

LostAngeles

There was only the one (1) charge. What guidelines? Raychill Maddow's guidelines? They didn't exist in any of the post WWII trials. Asano was tried by the Americans. You know, the same ones Maddow says hanged Japanese convicted of "waterboarding" alone. Where does Maddow even mention Count 54 in her rant? Maddow doesn't even say "ordered waterboarding;" she says "waterboarding." Did Cheney actually perform "waterboarding" on the three detainees? She makes a blanket statement that the United States hung Japanese convicted of "waterbaording." Obviously, when that was the only charge, nobody was hanged for it.

Holy ****, learn to quote possibly sometime after you learn reading comprehension. You look like a damn plagiarist who has no idea what he's doing. And then learn understanding things in context. Things like analogies.

Ordering waterboarding was among the war crimes we hung people for. Cheney ordered waterboarding.

And hey, when you can get me something other than a one page thing with excerpts on Asano...

...or even understand why we tried and hung those who ordered the torture...

 

[Trantor]

I do agree that Olberman's show is designed to counter some of the right wing shows on Fox News. I am not a regular viewer of his show, but I have watched his show from time to time, as I've also watched O'Reilly, Beck, and Hannity on occasion. Yes, Olberman can be over the top sometimes, but I can't recall him ever twristing the facts, to the same level as some of the Fox News personalities that I've mentioned. Most of the time, Olberman simply plays parts of videos which originally aired on Fox News.

Also, Oberman is much more pro-science compared to O'Reilly, Beck, and Hannity. I've tuned in to his show on several occasion only because a particular scientist is going to talk about some science related subject, such as evolution, global warming, stem cell research, and even astronomy. I've seen Astronomer Neil Tyson appear on numerous occasions to talk about science.

On the other hand, Beck, Hannity, and O'Reilly typically attack science in favor of good ole fashioned Christian Faith.

 

[Cicero]

There's been a lot of fact checking about the claim, "we hanged Japanese war criminals for waterboarding."

Here are some links to the folks who went to the trouble to fact check:
Mark Hemingway from the National Review Online (NRO) argued hangings were for lots of things including waterboarding but also noted some people who waterboarded were not hanged. But that doesn't tell us if they participated at different levels.

Paul Begala (CNN & Huffington Post) rebutted the NRO article and argues McCain said it and PolitFact checked on the facts and agreed.


But let's get back to the thread issue, that is, because Maddow repeated a claim which was arguable mainly on semantic grounds, this is supposed to be the big example that deceit by Maddow is equivalent to the deceit (or errors if you consider deceit has to be a purposeful lie) of Hannity and Beck.

This particular semantic error was only a distraction from the facts in the first place. It's like trying to argue a sidetrack so no one will notice the reason for the statement, "the US hung people for waterboarding", was specifically to point out waterboarding was considered torture by US law after WWII.

Does the fact the US hung people for war crimes that included waterboarding rather than the fact the US hung people for waterboarding mean waterboarding was only questionably torture under US law? No. And wasn't that the real issue? Yes. So Maddow was correct where it mattered, waterboarding was easily found in US case law and was illegal. Bush attorneys were lying or derelict in their duty when they gave Bush a letter excusing war crimes claiming the acts weren't clearly illegal.

Fact: Waterboarding was defined as torture in US trials in cases against Japanese soldiers after WWII.

Whether or not it was, by itself, punishable by death, can be viewed as an exaggeration of the severity with which the law viewed the torture, but it doesn't change the fact it was considered torture under US law. And that was the issue under discussion. Arguing the semantics of Maddow or Begala is a typical example of the Republican propaganda machine trying to distract people from the fact Bush committed war crimes as defined by US law and his attorneys helped cover the crime.

At worst Maddow exaggerated the severity of waterboarding as torture severity goes (by a semantic error), and at best waterboarding is punishable by death but doesn't carry a mandatory death sentence. Not all murder cases get the death penalty either while murder can be punishable by the death penalty, it isn't always. It is still murder and waterboarding regardless of the punishment, is still defined as torture in US case law.

Has Maddow ever correcter her error on the air? Not that I am aware of. Why not?

None of the cases regarding only waterboarding received the death penalty. So "waterboarding" was not punishable by death or carried a death penalty.

Neither Maddow, McCain, Begalia, or MediaMatters managed to come up with a single name of a Japanese convicted on only a "waterboarding" charge that was hanged. They also omitted the portions that resulted in why the seven (7) received the death penalty.

"Kenji Dohihara, Seishiro Itagaki, Heitaro Kimura, Akira Muto, and Hideki Tojo, the IMTFE defendants who were convicted on Count 54 (ordering, authorizing, and permitting commission of war crimes including, inter alia, torture), were all sentenced to death by hanging."

Obviously, Count 54 contains many other crimes other than "waterboarding." Not to mention that all of these folks were also found guilty of:


Dohihara: counts 1 27 29 31 32 35 36
Itagaki, counts 1 27 29 31 32 35 36
Kimura: counts 1 27 29 31 32
Muto: counts 1 27 29 31 32 54 55
Tojo: counts 1 27 29 31 32 33


"PolitiFact wrote that a "number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps." From PolitiFact's article:

"McCain is referencing the Tokyo Trials, officially known as the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as "water cure," "water torture" and "waterboarding," according to the charging documents. It simulates drowning."

http://mediamatters.org/research/200904240035

A number? Is seven (7) to indeterminate a number to mention? None of these seven (7) received the death penalty for "waterboarding." The International Military Tribunal for the Far East was not convened for prosecuting Japanese for torture but primarily for Count 1: as "leaders, organizers, instigators, or accomplices in the formulation or execution of a common plan or conspiracy .. to wage wars of aggression, and war or wars in violation of international law." . "Water-based interrogation" was not at the top of the list either. It is not even the top charge in Count 54.

 

[Cicero]

Holy ****, learn to quote possibly sometime after you learn reading comprehension. You look like a damn plagiarist who has no idea what he's doing. And then learn understanding things in context. Things like analogies.

Ordering waterboarding was among the war crimes we hung people for. Cheney ordered waterboarding.

And hey, when you can get me something other than a one page thing with excerpts on Asano...

...or even understand why we tried and hung those who ordered the torture...

Merely repeating Maddow's lies is not persuasive. I'm still waiting for you to provide me with even one Japanese who was sentenced to death for the single act of "waterboarding," or even ordering "waterboarding."


"One page thing?" It's a copy of the official document. Wow!

You of all people should consider the source credible since it is included in the book “Drop By Drop: Forgetting The History of Water Torture In U.S.
Courts,” The Columbia Journal of Transnational Law, 2007 by Evan Wallach.

 

[Cicero]

A couple of points:

1. It doesn't look to me like we can show that these people were 'hung for waterboarding' because of the variety of things lumped together in that 'charge 54', of which it would seem that if you were guilty of 1 of those sub-headings, you could be found guilty of the charge, and because of the other counts of which these folks were found guilty. Therefore Maddow's statement is incorrect.

A simple point of fact that Maddow and LeftAngeles refuse to acknowledge. Why? I have no idea. Not only are there many charges in Count 54, but all those sentenced to death found guilty of Count 54 were also found guilty of a half dozen other Counts.

2. It seems pretty darned clear that we (the International community, the USA, etc) considered waterboarding to be a war-crime which deserved punishment. This is evidenced by the fact that it is included among the various sub-crimes in charge 54. If we considered something a war crime back in the late 40's, one would think we would at least follow that example as a minimum standard today.

True.

 

[LostAngeles]

Merely repeating Maddow's lies is not persuasive. I'm still waiting for you to provide me with even one Japanese who was sentenced to death for the single act of "waterboarding," or even ordering "waterboarding."


"One page thing?" It's a copy of the official document. Wow!

You of all people should consider the source credible since it is included in the book “Drop By Drop: Forgetting The History of Water Torture In U.S.
Courts,” The Columbia Journal of Transnational Law, 2007 by Evan Wallach.

That has no other information and selected specifications?

I doubt it.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....[snip part that missed my point]....

Was what I said too complicated?

Here a simpler version.

The actual issue: Bush claims his attorney general gave a ruling waterboarding was not clearly torture.

Waterboarding is defined as torture in US case law.

That fact is being overlooked by this attempt to change the issue to whether or not people were put to death for waterboarding in that case law.

Whether or not they were executed for waterboarding or merely convicted of it and put to death for other crimes does not let Bush or the AG off the hook for ignoring the law.




Now if you want to just look at the right wing vs the left wing programs here, Maddow vs Beck and Hannity, compare what you have:

A misstatement or exaggeration of the degree of severity of a type of torture, punishable by death or just conviction of torture.

VS

Attempting to distract from the real issue, Bush ordered prisoners to be tortured and his AG gave him a cover letter to cover up the war crime should Bush be caught.


Which is a worse lie?

 

[Cicero]

That has no other information and selected specifications?

I doubt it.

What is missing? Here is more confirmation on Asano's war crimes charge and punishment.

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~warcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Asano.htm

You seem to be the only holdout in this thread that continues to cling to Maddow's lie. Why is this?

Still waiting for your example of even one (1) Japanese sentenced to death for the charge of "waterboarding."

 

[Cicero]

Was what I said too complicated?

It didn't add to the discussion.

Here a simpler version.

The actual issue: Bush claims his attorney general gave a ruling waterboarding was not clearly torture.

Waterboarding is defined as torture in US case law.

That fact is being overlooked by this attempt to change the issue to whether or not people were put to death for waterboarding in that case law.

Whether or not they were executed for waterboarding or merely convicted of it and put to death for other crimes does not let Bush or the AG off the hook for ignoring the law.

That may be your issue, but it is not the issue that concerns Maddow's historical gaffes and her refusal to correct the record. The fact is nobody was executed for "waterboarding" as a result of the post WWII war crimes Trials in Japan.

Now if you want to just look at the right wing vs the left wing programs here, Maddow vs Beck and Hannity, compare what you have:

A misstatement or exaggeration of the degree of severity of a type of torture, punishable by death or just conviction of torture.

VS

Attempting to distract from the real issue, Bush ordered prisoners to be tortured and his AG gave him a cover letter to cover up the war crime should Bush be caught.


Which is a worse lie?

The CIA used waterboarding on three detainees. Somehow Maddow used that to segue into the Tokyo Trials where seven (7) Japanese were sentenced to death.

Neither Beck, Hannity, or O'Reilly are journalists. Of course KO and Maddow aren't either, but they actually believe they are.

"Outstanding TV Journalism Segment category" GLAAD nominated Maddow for her MSNBC show.

KO proposed that "Snipery" Hillary should have been whacked during the primaries. Is murder on par with waterboarding?

 

[LostAngeles]

What is missing? Here is more confirmation on Asano's war crimes charge and punishment.

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~warcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Asano.htm

You seem to be the only holdout in this thread that continues to cling to Maddow's lie. Why is this?

Still waiting for your example of even one (1) Japanese sentenced to death for the charge of "waterboarding."

Why do you continue to refuse acknowledgment of the context of Maddow's remark? Asano is irrelevant to this discussion since he was not tried under the International Military Tribunal of the Far East (which is what Maddow was referring to) where the people who ordered and/or authorized the waterboarding were tried and convicted and hung. Maddow was referring to Dick Cheney freely admitting that as vice president he authorized waterboarding.

 

[Cicero]

Why do you continue to refuse acknowledgment of the context of Maddow's remark? Asano is irrelevant to this discussion since he was not tried under the International Military Tribunal of the Far East (which is what Maddow was referring to) where the people who ordered and/or authorized the waterboarding were tried and convicted and hung. Maddow was referring to Dick Cheney freely admitting that as vice president he authorized waterboarding.

There is no context to her lie other than it is still a lie whether you watch the entire program or not.

The hilited portion is merely repeating Maddow's lie. Does it get any more validity the more you repeat it? If you cannot produce a single name of a WWII Japanese defendant who was put to death for the act of waterboarding, nothing else, then it is time to admit Maddow was wrong and so are you for defending the statement.

 

[Tricky]

I watched Olberman tonight. (Fairly rare for me.). He and his invite guest (can't remember the name) absolutely trashed Obama for refusing to pursue torturers and people who authorized torture. Yeah, he's on the left, but he's not a Democratic shill.

 

[LostAngeles]

There is no context to her lie other than it is still a lie whether you watch the entire program or not.

The hilited portion is merely repeating Maddow's lie. Does it get any more validity the more you repeat it? If you cannot produce a single name of a WWII Japanese defendant who was put to death for the act of waterboarding, nothing else, then it is time to admit Maddow was wrong and so are you for defending the statement.

It's not a lie. Did you watch the segment at all?

 

[Cicero]

It's not a lie. Did you watch the segment at all?

You didn't even know about the segment until I posted it. Apparently, you didn't even know about any of the post WWII trials in Japan.


Let's examine your go to phrase:

people who ordered and/or authorized the waterboarding were tried and convicted and hung.

You couldn't even get any portion of that sentence correct. Of the 25 Japanese tried on Count 54 at the Tokyo Trials, 19 were found Not Guilty. None of those found guilty of only Count 54, which consisted of numerous violations, not just "waterboarding," were given the death sentence much less actually.hanged.

Still waiting in vain for your example of even one (1) Japanese sentenced to death for the charge of "waterboarding."

 

[tyr_13]

Still waiting in vain for your example of even one (1) Japanese sentenced to death for the charge of "waterboarding."

That isn't what the quote says. It says that they were convicted of water boarding and hung. Not that they were hung for water boarding.

 

[LostAngeles]

You couldn't even get any portion of that sentence correct. Of the 25 Japanese tried on Count 54 at the Tokyo Trials, 19 were found Not Guilty. None of those found guilty of only Count 54, which consisted of numerous violations, not just "waterboarding," were given the death sentence much less actually.hanged.

Still waiting in vain for your example of even one (1) Japanese sentenced to death for the charge of "waterboarding."

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/PTO/IMTFE/IMTFE-10.html

Find me at least one defendant found guilty of only Count 54 on the list tried by the International Military Tribunal of the Far East there.