Split Thread O'Reilly, Olberman, and other left-vs-right commentators.

[Merko]

Raychill is KO with testosterone. When she can't use facts to support her liberal rants, no problem, she just makes up stuff. Her notion that during the Tokyo Trials, Japenese convicted of waterboarding were hanged was a pefrect example.

Do you have anything at all to support that claim? First, the claim is probably true. I'm not sure if any Japanese were hanged based solely on the charge of waterboarding, but the waterboarding was certainly a major charge against a number of Japanese who were convicted and hanged.

Secondly, even if the claim was not true, it was certainly not invented by Maddow. Here's John McCain from 2007:

There should be little doubt from American history that we consider that [waterboarding] as torture otherwise we wouldn't have tried and convicted Japanese for doing that same thing to Americans

Here is sample of her promoting "different opinions."

That's a clip where she gives David Frum, who isn't any kind of pushover, about 8 minutes to make his charge that Maddow's show is not 'serious' enough. Given all this time, he fails to bring up a single concrete example.

 

[Cicero]

=Merko;4881609]Do you have anything at all to support that claim? First, the claim is probably true. I'm not sure if any Japanese were hanged based solely on the charge of waterboarding, but the waterboarding was certainly a major charge against a number of Japanese who were convicted and hanged.

"People found guilty of waterboarding were sentenced to death and hanged."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#28269977

Defendant: Asano, Yukio

Docket Date: 53/ May 1 - 28, 1947, Yokohama, Japan

Charge: Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs.

Specifications:beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward

Verdict: 15 years CHL

Secondly, even if the claim was not true, it was certainly not invented by Maddow. Here's John McCain from 2007:

Maddow is excused for passing on bogus info because others have done so? Please.

That's a clip where she gives David Frum, who isn't any kind of pushover, about 8 minutes to make his charge that Maddow's show is not 'serious' enough. Given all this time, he fails to bring up a single concrete example.

Maddow's show is the same as KO's. Neither one is attempting to do anything more than be a third rate Jon Stewart. Her schtick is wearisome as the ratings demonstrate.

"MSNBC’s 9pm Rachel Maddow Show has seen its adults 25-54 audience, the demo that cable news advertisers target, fall by nearly 55% from Q4 2008 through Q2 2009."

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/06/3...4-audience-down-nearly-55-since-q4-2008/21725


Back in August, Maddow actually considered jumping to FOX News. Was this just a plot to get MSNBC to pony up her own show, or would she have accepted an offer from FOX? What would the Maddowphiles have said about their darling if she were working at FOX News? The mind boggles.

http://radioequalizer.blogspot.com/2...st-in-fox.html

 

[LostAngeles]

"People found guilty of waterboarding were sentenced to death and hanged."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#28269977

Defendant: Asano, Yukio

Docket Date: 53/ May 1 - 28, 1947, Yokohama, Japan

Charge: Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs.

Specifications:beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward

Verdict: 15 years CHL

Wait, you can get us a cite for those others but not for this?

Because one guy doesn't prove that no Japanese who were convicted of waterboarding were hanged. It shows that there exists at least one Japanese person who was convicted of waterboarding was hanged or not all Japanese who were convicted of waterboarding were hanged.

To disprove the claim made, you need to show (and you can just give us the cite and say, "Look, none of them were hanged.") that there does not exist any Japanese person who was convicted of waterboarding that was hanged.

ETA: Your last link gives a Not Found, btw.

 

[Cicero]

Wait, you can get us a cite for those others but not for this?

Because one guy doesn't prove that no Japanese who were convicted of waterboarding were hanged. It shows that there exists at least one Japanese person who was convicted of waterboarding was hanged or not all Japanese who were convicted of waterboarding were hanged.

To disprove the claim made, you need to show (and you can just give us the cite and say, "Look, none of them were hanged.") that there does not exist any Japanese person who was convicted of waterboarding that was hanged.

ETA: Your last link gives a Not Found, btw.

Again, for the historically challenged like Maddow, no Japanese convicted during the Tokyo Trials solely of waterboarding was hanged.

Seven (7) Japanese were hanged for war crimes after the "International Military Tribunal for the Far East." Not one of them for waterboarding.

1) Gen. Matsui Iwane, guilty of class B and C war crimes,
2) Tojo Hideki waging wars of aggression, and war or wars in violation of ordering, authorizing, and permitting inhumane treatment of Prisoners of War (POWs) and others.
3) Doihara Kenji, guilty of Counts 1, 27, 29, 31, 32, 35, 36, and 54
4) Hirota Koki, guilty count 1,27, 55, waging wars of aggression, and war or wars in violation of international law, waging unprovoked war against the Republic of China, disregard for duty to prevent breaches of the laws of war.
5) Itagaki Seishiro, found guilty on counts 1, 27, 29, 31, 32, 35, 36 and 54
6) Kimura Heitaro, guilty on counts 1, 27, 29, 31, 32, 54 and 55
7) Muto Akira, for having failed to stop his troops from committing atrocities in northern Sumatra and the Philippines.

 

[LostAngeles]

Again, for the historically challenged like Maddow, no Japanese convicted during the Tokyo Trials solely of waterboarding was hanged.

Seven (7) Japanese were hanged for war crimes after the "International Military Tribunal for the Far East." Not one of them for waterboarding.

1) Gen. Matsui Iwane, guilty of class B and C war crimes,
2) Tojo Hideki waging wars of aggression, and war or wars in violation of ordering, authorizing, and permitting inhumane treatment of Prisoners of War (POWs) and others.
3) Doihara Kenji, guilty of Counts 1, 27, 29, 31, 32, 35, 36, and 54
4) Hirota Koki, guilty count 1,27, 55, waging wars of aggression, and war or wars in violation of international law, waging unprovoked war against the Republic of China, disregard for duty to prevent breaches of the laws of war.
5) Itagaki Seishiro, found guilty on counts 1, 27, 29, 31, 32, 35, 36 and 54
6) Kimura Heitaro, guilty on counts 1, 27, 29, 31, 32, 54 and 55
7) Muto Akira, for having failed to stop his troops from committing atrocities in northern Sumatra and the Philippines.

Cite, please.

 

[Cicero]

Cite, please.

I made it up.

Did you skip history altogether in your education? This is common knowledge that is over 60 years old. Maybe you should have been asking Raychill to cite her referneces for her ridiculous waterboarding rant.

 

[LostAngeles]

I made it up.

Did you skip history altogether in your education? This is common knowledge that is over 60 years old. Maybe you should have been asking Raychill to cite her referneces for her ridiculous waterboarding rant.

Are you asserting that you remembered all of that off the top of your head?

When I studied history, I was expected to do a lot of writing that was fully backed up with citations. Didn't you learn that as well?

Why should I simply believe that what you say is true? I want to see for myself.

Did you forget that this is a skeptics' board?

 

[Merko]

Again, for the historically challenged like Maddow, no Japanese convicted during the Tokyo Trials solely of waterboarding was hanged.

Nobody claimed that anyone was hanged solely for waterboarding. Not Maddow, not McCain, not me. But waterboarding was one of several charges against people who were hanged.

The point being is that after WWII, waterboarding was considered not only a crime, but an extremely serious crime worth bringing up against people in order to have them convicted to the death penalty. You know, if someone is accused of murder for example, you don't even bother to charge them with some minor drug possession that may have been discovered.

Now, I'm certainly not claiming that Maddow is perfect, and it would be really strange if she has never claimed anything on her show which wasn't true. The same goes for any media personality who has been going for as long as she has. But it seems the example you chose to bring up was really, really poor. Not only wasn't she wrong, but she obviously did not "make it up", as the claim was already made not only by liberals but by conservatives too.

 

[Robster FCD]

He's done it multiple times, and never apologized or admitted he was wrong. Now look. O'Reilly is scum. But he's not defending the bloody Nazis for pete's sake.

He has made claims that US soldiers executed Nazis at Malmedy during the Battle of the Bulge. This was done to justify torturing POWs.

It wasn't defending Nazis, but it was accusing the 82nd Airborne of committing a Nazi atrocity.

 

[Robster FCD]

It's Mr. Maddow, no?

I do believe this, and his comments in following exchange, are among the most disgusting things that Marc has said to date.

 

[Robster FCD]

Olbermann, Mark Morford, Rachel Maddow, Gore, Biden and Corzine--jerks all. Ted Rall, Kos, Helen Thomas, Dan Froomkin, Al Franken and Rosie O'Donnell.

Brainster's got me on ignore, as his skin is far too delicate, but could somebody explain what makes Al Gore a jerk? Or perhaps Helen Thomas? (I did find her annoyance at a blogger asking a question at the most recent WH presser overly self important, but not jerky.) It seems that some, including Brainster, are putting people that they don't like on the jerk list for no better reason than they disagree with their positions.

I can certainly see Olberman, Rall, Markos, Franken, and O'Donnel as justifiably lebeled jerks, much less for Maddow and Froomkin. Corzine's a fair target, too. Biden for his gaffes? Perhaps. And who is Morford?

 

[Marc39]

I do believe this, and his comments in following exchange, are among the most disgusting things that Marc has said to date.

Maddow is decidedly butch, so, I'm merely affirming her masculine physical appearance. Touchy, touchy.

 

[Robster FCD]

Maddow is decidedly butch, so, I'm merely affirming her masculine physical appearance. Touchy, touchy.

 

[Cicero]

Nobody claimed that anyone was hanged solely for waterboarding. Not Maddow, not McCain, not me. But waterboarding was one of several charges against people who were hanged.

That is absurd. Of course Maddow did actually claim that Japanese were convicted and hanged solely for waterboarding. What you or McCain claim is not relavent to Maddow's perfidy.

58 seconds into the rant. The video doesn't lie.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#28269977

"People found guilty of waterboarding were hanged."

The point being is that after WWII, waterboarding was considered not only a crime, but an extremely serious crime worth bringing up against people in order to have them convicted to the death penalty. You know, if someone is accused of murder for example, you don't even bother to charge them with some minor drug possession that may have been discovered.

But those charged with waterboarding were not hanged. Waterboarding was not a charge brought against the seven (7) Japanese that received the death penalty. Those convicted of waterboarding served light sentences.

Now, I'm certainly not claiming that Maddow is perfect, and it would be really strange if she has never claimed anything on her show which wasn't true. The same goes for any media personality who has been going for as long as she has. But it seems the example you chose to bring up was really, really poor. Not only wasn't she wrong, but she obviously did not "make it up", as the claim was already made not only by liberals but by conservatives too.

Of course she was wrong. She was too lazy to check her facts before going on the air. She did this deliberately to further her agenda against Cheney. What this guy did to her personally nobody knows.

 

[Cicero]

Are you asserting that you remembered all of that off the top of your head?

When I studied history, I was expected to do a lot of writing that was fully backed up with citations. Didn't you learn that as well?

Why should I simply believe that what you say is true? I want to see for myself.

Did you forget that this is a skeptics' board?

What happened to Maddow's citations? Is your skepticism reserved only for the JREF forum? You are too lazy to google the names I gave you for confirmation? Obviously, you, like Maddow, figured there were hundreds of Japanese hanged for war crimes after the Tokyo trials. She couldn't take the time to learn why the seven (7) defendants were hanged.

Even the Wiki managed to get this right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Military_Tribunal_for_the_Far_East

 

[Cleon]

That is absurd. Of course Maddow did actually claim that Japanese were convicted and hanged solely for waterboarding. What you or McCain claim is not relavent to Maddow's perfidy.

58 seconds into the rant. The video doesn't lie.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#28269977

"People found guilty of waterboarding were hanged."

Which, of course, does not say "solely for waterboarding," just that people who were found guilty of it were hanged; it doesn't say what else they might have been found guilty of.

You may argue that she meant "solely for waterboarding" - and, believe it or not, I'd agree with you - but she didn't actually say it.

 

[Cleon]

What happened to Maddow's citations?

When you make a claim, pony up the evidence. Maddow isn't here.

Is your skepticism reserved only for the JREF forum?

Unlikely, but your claim was made here. Maddow doesn't post here.

You are too lazy to google the names I gave you for confirmation?

Calling LostAngeles lazy is not a good way to substantiate your claims.

Obviously, you, like Maddow, figured there were hundreds of Japanese hanged for war crimes after the Tokyo trials.

You can't read minds, you probably shouldn't try. Lost hasn't made a claim one way or the other about it. You, on the other hand, have made some claims.

Unless you can give a damn good reason* why your claims shouldn't be questioned, suck it up and deal.


* Hiding behind Maddow's alleged lies and putting words in Lost's mouth are not good reasons, much less damn good ones.

 

[Cicero]

Which, of course, does not say "solely for waterboarding," just that people who were found guilty of it were hanged; it doesn't say what else they might have been found guilty of.

You may argue that she meant "solely for waterboarding" - and, believe it or not, I'd agree with you - but she didn't actually say it.

I have already posted the crimes the seven (7) Japanese were found guilty of who received the death penalty. It was Maddow's intention to convince her dwindling audience that waterboarding was a war crime that garnered the death penalty. It didn't. There is no way to spin Maddow's comments otherwise.

 

[Cleon]

I have already posted the crimes the seven (7) Japanese were found guilty of who received the death penalty. It was Maddow's intention to convince her dwindling audience that waterboarding was a war crime that garnered the death penalty. It didn't. There is no way to spin Maddow's comments otherwise.

The only person spinning here is you. I've already contended that she probably meant that, though I think it was most likely a mistake rather than a deliberate lie.

The thing is, her words didn't actually say that, the way you claimed they did. Merko is right when he says that she didn't actually say they were convicted solely for waterboarding. That's not a particularly convincing defense, IMO, but it is factual.

 

[Cicero]

When you make a claim, pony up the evidence. Maddow isn't here.

I did pony up the evidence. LostAngeles refused to check it.

Unlikely, but your claim was made here. Maddow doesn't post here.

It is hardly a "claim.". This information is readily available. Alex Jones doesn't post here either, but he is criticized by JREFers for not supporting his 911 woo with facts.

Calling LostAngeles lazy is not a good way to substantiate your claims.

I already substantiated the historical truth. If I were making claims then you might have a case.

You can't read minds, you probably shouldn't try. Lost hasn't made a claim one way or the other about it. You, on the other hand, have made some claims.

By denying the historical facts in favor of Maddow's rant, he continues to cling to Maddow's sillyness.

Unless you can give a damn good reason* why your claims shouldn't be questioned, suck it up and deal.

You have trouble distinguishing between a "claim" and basic historical facts. Do I need to provide a citation that the sun will rise tomorrow?

* Hiding behind Maddow's alleged lies and putting words in Lost's mouth are not good reasons, much less damn good ones.

Nothing alleged about Maddow's lies. Her show is recorded.