Split Thread O'Reilly, Olberman, and other left-vs-right commentators.

[Cicero]

The only person spinning here is you. I've already contended that she probably meant that, though I think it was most likely a mistake rather than a deliberate lie.

The thing is, her words didn't actually say that, the way you claimed they did. Merko is right when he says that she didn't actually say they were convicted solely for waterboarding. That's not a particularly convincing defense, IMO, but it is factual.

What she meant? Maddow is not sufficiently conversant in English to express herself clearly? Convicted, yes. Hanged, no. Do you not see the difference?

 

[Cleon]

What she meant? Maddow is not sufficiently conversant in English to express herself clearly? Convicted, yes. Hanged, no. Do you not see the difference?

Er...Yes, I do. And by asking, I can only assume that you're not actually reading anything I post.

 

[Cleon]

I did pony up the evidence. LostAngeles refused to check it.

No, you didn't. You made some claims, and refused to provide a source beyond your own benighted wisdom.

Lost, inexplicably, isn't willing to take your word for it.

It is hardly a "claim.". This information is readily available.

That doesn't mean it isn't a claim.

I already substantiated the historical truth. If I were making claims then you might have a case.

You are making claims. Do you not know what the word means?

By denying the historical facts in favor of Maddow's rant, he continues to cling to Maddow's sillyness.

She did not deny any historical facts. By claiming (there's that word again!) that she did, you are lying.

You have trouble distinguishing between a "claim" and basic historical facts. Do I need to provide a citation that the sun will rise tomorrow?

So, you don't know what the word "claim" means. Is English not your first language?

Nothing alleged about Maddow's lies. Her show is recorded.

Yep, alleged. Unless you can show that what she said (not meant) was untrue, and that she knew it was untrue, any "lying" on her part remains alleged. (Unless you don't know what that word means, either.)

The funny part is, the moment someone says "Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq," you demand that everyone prove that he knowingly provided false information. When it's Rachel Maddow, though, somehow it just doesn't seem that important. When it's a Republican, he was given bad information. When it's a Democrat, she's lying until proven otherwise.

 

[LostAngeles]

What happened to Maddow's citations? Is your skepticism reserved only for the JREF forum? You are too lazy to google the names I gave you for confirmation? Obviously, you, like Maddow, figured there were hundreds of Japanese hanged for war crimes after the Tokyo trials. She couldn't take the time to learn why the seven (7) defendants were hanged.

Even the Wiki managed to get this right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Military_Tribunal_for_the_Far_East

Working from a citation found in that wiki article and the wiki itself

From http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/PTO/IMTFE/index.html

In Chapter 8, under "Conventional War Crimes," we find a description of the, "water-treatment."

The so-called "water treatment" was commonly applied. The victim was bound or otherwise secured in a prone position; and water was forced through his mouth and nostrils into his lungs and stomach until he lost consciousness. Pressure was then applied, sometimes by jumping upon his abdomen to force the water out. The usual practice was to revive the victim and successively repeat the process. There was evidence that this torture was used in the following places: China, at Shanghai, Peiping and Nanking; French Indo-China, at Hanoi and Saigon; Malaya, at Singapore; Burma, at Kyaikto; Thailand, at Chumporn; Andaman Islands, at Port Blair; Borneo, at Jesselton; Sumatra, at Medan, Tadjong Karang and Palembank; Java, at Batavia, Bandung, Soerabaja and Buitennzong; Celebes, at Makassar; Portuguese Timor, at Ossu and Dilli; Philippines, at Manila, Nichols Field, Palo Beach and Dumaguete; Formosa, at Camp Haito; and in Japan, at Tokyo.

This sounds similar to waterboarding and wiki supports the claim the the Japanese used waterboarding. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#World_War_II

Chapter IX in sections 1141-1143 lists the charges that the Tribunal has opted to consider, among then Count 54 which covers the Conventional War Crimes, which, as I just showed, includes waterboarding.

Chapter X lists the defendants and what the were convicted of and I matched this against the wikipedia list of those who were hanged (please note, wikipedia does include in the crimes they were found guilty of, but says, "war crimes," and not all were found guilty of Count 54, Conventional War Crimes).

The defendants who were found guilty of Count 54 and executed are:

Dohihara Kenji
Itagaki Seishiro
Kimura Heitaro
Muto Akira
Tojo Hideki

That's 5 out of the 7 listed that were charged with a count that included waterboarding and hanged. They were not hanged solely for waterboarding and while a number of their co-defendants were not guilty of committing atrocities, a number were found guilty of not having stopped the atrocities.

Were they hanged for waterboarding? Yes, in part. I found no listings of anyone who was convicted of Count 54 and not hanged. This does not imply that they were hanged simply for the waterboarding but that waterboarding was among the crimes they were hanged for.

Watching your link Rachel Maddow got the first part right in her statements (which was hardly a rant), that they were put on trial for war crimes which included waterboarding. Her statement that they were hanged for waterboarding is slightly less accurate in that it was not the only crime that they were hanged for and her statement could be taken to imply that it was, especially sans context.

Thank you for the evidence, but I'm sorry, it does not sufficiently support your claim.

 

[LostAngeles]

I did pony up the evidence. LostAngeles refused to check it.

You gave me slightly more than a half-hour to respond. A half-hour during which, I wasn't at my computer.

I've checked it and posted a response.

 

[Cicero]

You gave me slightly more than a half-hour to respond. A half-hour during which, I wasn't at my computer.

I've checked it and posted a response.

I provided the counts, including #54, in my post #104. None of them were hanged for waterboarding as the penalty for that crime was 15 years as Yukio Asano was sentenced to. He served five (5) years.

"Charge: Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs.

Specifications:beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward."

I found no listings of anyone who was convicted of Count 54 and not hanged.

LostAngeles

Neither you or Maddow get any points for research.


Again, no Japanese was hanged for the crime of waterboarding. Maddow was either ignorant or intentionally lying just to further her condemnation of Cheney.

 

[LostAngeles]

I provided the counts, including #54, in my post #104. None of them were hanged for waterboarding as the penalty for that crime was 15 years as Yukio Asano was sentenced to. He served five (5) years.

"Charge: Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs.

Specifications:beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward."

LostAngeles

Neither you or Maddow get any points for research.


Again, no Japanese was hanged for the crime of waterboarding. Maddow was either ignorant or intentionally lying just to further her condemnation of Cheney.

You referred me to the International Tribunal which is what Maddow was referring to. (See your own link)

From that tribunal, seven were hanged, five for crimes which included waterboarding.

Asano was not among these tried listed in either the wiki link nor in the link I followed from the wiki citations and therefore was not convicted of Count 54.

 

[Cicero]

=LostAngeles;4885618]You referred me to the International Tribunal which is what Maddow was referring to. (See your own link)

Maddow said, "We (The United States) hanged people for waterboarding."

No we didn't.

From that tribunal, seven were hanged, five for crimes which included waterboarding.

Subtract the other charges and none of the seven (7) would have been sentenced to death. Why is this so hard to fathom? None of these individuals were hanged for "waterboarding." Count 54 (Ordered, authorized, and permitted inhumane treatment of Prisoners of War) was not a hanging offense. Ted Bundy was charged with beating, raping, kidnapping and killing . He didn't get the death penalty for the beatings.

Asano was not among these tried listed in either the wiki link nor in the link I followed from the wiki citations and therefore was not convicted of Count 54.

That's like saying the Nuremburg trials were only about the 22 top ranking Nazis.
Asano was tried under the same guidlines as the other seven.

U.S. Military Commission, Yokohama, May 1-28, 1947

http://www.2008electionprocon.org/pdf/asano_case.pdf

 

[HansMustermann]

Olbermann is in the same vein as O'Reilly, neither of which are anywhere as bad as Coulter and Limbaugh. I bet the left does have people as insane, but they aren't as mainstream.

IIRC O'Reilly actually went on TV saying that those poor people who can't afford medical care, could afford it if they stopped buying a quart of gin a day. Literally.

(For those on metric, that's almost a litre of gin! Not that the exact quantity matters compared to the monstrousness of the statement itself.)

I'm sorry, but that's such a heartless thing to say... It's past even the point of arguing that the current system of insurance is somehow better for them or anything, and it's just calling alcoholics... some thousands of people who get thrown out to die. It's such a callous thing I wouldn't even say it about an actual alcoholic, much less as a blanket statement about everyone who's too poor for their disease.

Admittedly, he still has to top Coulter.

Anyway, if you can dig up some link where Olbermann comes even within the same order of magnitude of a-hole factor... please do post it. I'm interested.

 

[Cicero]

IIRC O'Reilly actually went on TV saying that those poor people who can't afford medical care, could afford it if they stopped buying a quart of gin a day. Literally.

(For those on metric, that's almost a litre of gin! Not that the exact quantity matters compared to the monstrousness of the statement itself.)

I'm sorry, but that's such a heartless thing to say... It's past even the point of arguing that the current system of insurance is somehow better for them or anything, and it's just calling alcoholics... some thousands of people who get thrown out to die. It's such a callous thing I wouldn't even say it about an actual alcoholic, much less as a blanket statement about everyone who's too poor for their disease.

Admittedly, he still has to top Coulter.

Anyway, if you can dig up some link where Olbermann comes even within the same order of magnitude of a-hole factor... please do post it. I'm interested.

A sample of KO's wisdom:

"Al Qaeda really hurt us, but not as much as Rupert Murdoch has hurt us, particularly in the case of Fox News. Fox News is worse than Al Qaeda--worse for our society. It's as dangerous as the Ku Klux Klan ever was."

"I went to an ACLU dinner with 700 lawyers, 700 honest lawyers."

"People over 25 have no money; people over 54 are set in their ways and understand that advertising is largely ********. It's fine to have viewers outside that group, but they don't count as much. They're like people who get free tickets to a ball game."

2007 Playboy interview

Here is KO agreeing with his favorite political scientist, Janeane Garofalo, about how Michael Steele, being a Republican, is struggling with Stockholm Syndrome. According to Garofalo, and KO, all blacks must think exactly the same, i.e. follow the liberal ideology, or they are self-loathing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfzJZ...eature=related

 

[Marc39]

A sample of KO's wisdom:

"Al Qaeda really hurt us, but not as much as Rupert Murdoch has hurt us, particularly in the case of Fox News. Fox News is worse than Al Qaeda--worse for our society. It's as dangerous as the Ku Klux Klan ever was."

"I went to an ACLU dinner with 700 lawyers, 700 honest lawyers."

"People over 25 have no money; people over 54 are set in their ways and understand that advertising is largely ********. It's fine to have viewers outside that group, but they don't count as much. They're like people who get free tickets to a ball game."

2007 Playboy interview

Here is KO agreeing with his favorite political scientist, Janeane Garofalo, about how Michael Steele, being a Republican, is struggling with Stockholm Syndrome. According to Garofalo, and KO, all blacks must think exactly the same, i.e. follow the liberal ideology, or they are self-loathing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfzJZ...eature=related

Olbermann is a failed sportscaster who graduated from, to borrow from Ann Coulter, the Old MacDonald Farm School at Cornell. Why would anyone take him seriously?

 

[Marc39]

IIRC O'Reilly actually went on TV saying that those poor people who can't afford medical care, could afford it if they stopped buying a quart of gin a day. Literally.

(For those on metric, that's almost a litre of gin! Not that the exact quantity matters compared to the monstrousness of the statement itself.)

I'm sorry, but that's such a heartless thing to say... It's past even the point of arguing that the current system of insurance is somehow better for them or anything, and it's just calling alcoholics... some thousands of people who get thrown out to die. It's such a callous thing I wouldn't even say it about an actual alcoholic, much less as a blanket statement about everyone who's too poor for their disease.

Admittedly, he still has to top Coulter.

Anyway, if you can dig up some link where Olbermann comes even within the same order of magnitude of a-hole factor... please do post it. I'm interested.

Why are poor people in America so fat and why do they have widescreen TVs?

 

[HansMustermann]

"Al Qaeda really hurt us, but not as much as Rupert Murdoch has hurt us, particularly in the case of Fox News. Fox News is worse than Al Qaeda--worse for our society. It's as dangerous as the Ku Klux Klan ever was."

Well, that does sound as an over-the-top statement, but it's hard to be sure without a bit more context. Considering that Al Qaeda only did the 9/11 attack, while Rupert's propaganda machine helped get a bunch of liberties back from Americans and worked hard to justify a war with the wrong country... I can see how he may actually have a point there, nasty as it may be.

Anyway, it's still _far_ from the sheer inhumanity of Bill calling each poor person who can't afford medicare an alcoholic.

"I went to an ACLU dinner with 700 lawyers, 700 honest lawyers."

I'm scratching my head here. What am I supposed to find inherently inhuman about this one? There are honest lawyers around. Not everyone is an ambulance chaser. Or is it just because it's about the ACLU and I'm supposed to think there's something inherently wrong about that one?

"People over 25 have no money; people over 54 are set in their ways and understand that advertising is largely ********. It's fine to have viewers outside that group, but they don't count as much. They're like people who get free tickets to a ball game."

Well, this one strikes me as probably too open for his own good, and maybe wrong depending on which market survey company you believe... but other than that what's wrong with it? It doesn't even call any of them alcoholics or anything.

2007 Playboy interview

Here is KO agreeing with his favorite political scientist, Janeane Garofalo, about how Michael Steele, being a Republican, is struggling with Stockholm Syndrome. According to Garofalo, and KO, all blacks must think exactly the same, i.e. follow the liberal ideology, or they are self-loathing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfzJZ...eature=related

Well, that does sound as a bit of a head-up-own-ass syndrome, but it's hard to tell since the URL is broken and thus I can't watch the video. Can you post it again, please?

 

[LostAngeles]

Maddow said, "We (The United States) hanged people for waterboarding."

No we didn't.

Yes, we did. We were part of the International Military Tribunal that was established by a special proclaimation of Gen. MacArthur and Judge John P. Higgins of the MA Superior Court served as our judge. Your wiki link again.

Subtract the other charges and none of the seven (7) would have been sentenced to death.

I never said that they were hanged solely for waterboarding and neither did Ms. Maddow. But let's take a look at the charges:

From 1141 onwards

The counts that they were charged under were criminal conspiracy to engage in war, engaging in a war of aggression and wars in violation of international treaties and laws and such, war crimes and the failure to stop war crimes.

Subtracting the war crimes, are those sufficient for a death sentence?

Of the two that were not convicted under Count 54 and executed, Hirota Koki was convicted of having known about the Rape of Nanking and done nothing, amounting to, "criminal negligence," and Matsui Iwane was the commander of the force committing the Rape of Nanking and he was there and he did nothing to stop it.

Why is this so hard to fathom? None of these individuals were hanged for "waterboarding." Count 54 (Ordered, authorized, and permitted inhumane treatment of Prisoners of War) was not a hanging offense.

In the context of Rachel Maddows comments? She was talking about Dick Cheney admitting freely that he authorized waterboarding. Which is among the crimes that we (and our Allies) executed these five men for.

Show me that it is not a hanging offense.

That's like saying the Nuremburg trials were only about the 22 top ranking Nazis.
Asano was tried under the same guidlines as the other seven.

U.S. Military Commission, Yokohama, May 1-28, 1947

http://www.2008electionprocon.org/pdf/asano_case.pdf

All that link gives me is one charge and selected specifications on that charge and says nothing to support your assertion that Asano was tried under the same guidelines.

 

[Cobalt]

This thread seems to have drifted enough to make Sam Hubinette jealous.

 

[Thunder]

Why are poor people in America so fat and why do they have widescreen TVs?

 

[Thunder]

Olbermann is a failed sportscaster who graduated from, to borrow from Ann Coulter, the Old MacDonald Farm School at Cornell. Why would anyone take him seriously?

Cornell is a very...very fine school. I'm sure you are aware of that.

 

[Cicero]

Yes, we did. We were part of the International Military Tribunal that was established by a special proclaimation of Gen. MacArthur and Judge John P. Higgins of the MA Superior Court served as our judge. Your wiki link again.

Now provide any example of any Japanese hanged as punishment for waterboarding Allies, civilians, etc.

I never said that they were hanged solely for waterboarding and neither did Ms. Maddow. But let's take a look at the charges:

From 1141 onwards

I do not care what you said. Maddow did say they were hanged for "waterboarding" period. Please show me where she said that they were hanged for some other offense? What do you think she said when she said

"We (The United States) hanged people for waterboarding."

Do you know Maddow's code? Please decipher that sentence.

The counts that they were charged under were criminal conspiracy to engage in war, engaging in a war of aggression and wars in violation of international treaties and laws and such, war crimes and the failure to stop war crimes.

Subtracting the war crimes, are those sufficient for a death sentence?

Those are war crimes. Check the Nuremberg trials. Several defendants were hanged for those offenses such as von Ribbentrop.

Of the two that were not convicted under Count 54 and executed, Hirota Koki was convicted of having known about the Rape of Nanking and done nothing, amounting to, "criminal negligence," and Matsui Iwane was the commander of the force committing the Rape of Nanking and he was there and he did nothing to stop it.



In the context of Rachel Maddows comments? She was talking about Dick Cheney admitting freely that he authorized waterboarding. Which is among the crimes that we (and our Allies) executed these five men for.

Show me that it is not a hanging offense.



All that link gives me is one charge and selected specifications on that charge and says nothing to support your assertion that Asano was tried under the same guidelines.

It was a crime that was included in the charges. It was not a crime that resulted in any death sentence. There were not two sets of rules for Japanese defendants after WWII during the same time period these trials occurred. Asano commits the same crime and gets 15 years, but five out of the seven (7) central characters at their war crimes trial get death for doing the same thing?

Maddow either intentionally lied or her staff is merely incompetent in doing their research. Your paltry efforts have not changed anything. You have also failed to provide any proof that anyone was hanged for waterbaording at any post WWII Japanese war crimes trials.

 

[LostAngeles]

It was a crime that was included in the charges. It was not a crime that resulted in any death sentence. there were not two sets of rules for Japanese defendants after WWII during the same time period these trials occured. Asano commits the same crime and gets 15 years, but five out of the seven (7) central characters at their war crimes trial get death for doing the same thing?

Maddow either intentionally lied or her staff is merely incompetant in doing their research. You efforts have not changed anything. You have also failed to provide any proof that anyone was hanged for waterbaording at any post WWII Japanese war crimes trials.

You severely need to correct your quoting. While you're at it, try reading what I posted again.

 

[Cicero]

You severely need to correct your quoting. While you're at it, try reading what I posted again.

"We (The United States) hanged people for waterboarding."

R.M.

What does that sentence mean to you?