Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[Drudgewire]

No its gone. That's a capture from the wayback machine circa 2007

 

[SteveAustin]

I don't recall anyone claiming that there were necessarily more debunkers than truthers, just that there are overwhelmingly more people who don't believe the truth movement's arguments than people who do.

Oh but how many people have even heard of alternative theories to the OCT?

I can tell you that hardly a day goes by when I don't encounter someone who still has not heard that WTC7 fell on 9/11.

When the mainstream media decides to black out any mention of alternatives, and use ridicule and derision and hate the few times it does mention some small part of alternative theories you can't claim that overwhelmingly more people do not believe the truth movement's arguments.

If you're claiming that everyone who disagrees with you is a debunker, then in effect you're claiming that the majority of the population is actively opposing the truth movement, while at the same time you're claiming that the truth movement is gaining ascendancy as a political movement. You may be the only one who can't see the contradiction here.

Dave

I don't see any contradiction in that. What is contradictory to saying that the majority of the population is actively opposing the truth movement (a point which is not valid btw) while at the same time saying the truth movement is gaining ascendancy? (did you intend to use this word to imply gaining ground? Or to imply gained enough ground to be a majority? Which is something Dave did not say)

gaining ascendancy is only saying gaining ground if you ignore you implied for your arguments sake. Gaining ground does not mean majority, so there is no contradiction.

I don't subscribe to your claims regardless but you should at least make sure your claims are true.

 

[T.A.M.]

The ratio of debunkers to Truthers on the jref has to be at least fifty to one. I've never participted on any forum where debunkers did not outnumber Truthers by at least three to one. WWell- perhaps the pilots. So the statistics still hold fine.

Many people have never even considered an alternative view to the OCT because they have never realised that there is an alternative view. That or they have just taken the 'conspiracy theory nutters' viewpoint as they were intended to. The government didn't start the conspiracy theories and develop the '9/11 conspiracy theorist nutter'' template for nothing after all.

Those are the people we are reaching in increasing numbers.

Well it is harder to find sites where truthers out number anyone these days...that is a sad fact for your "movement". I believe 9/11 blogger would be a good place to start. go there...they will love you over there.

TAM

 

[RedIbis]

Well it is harder to find sites where truthers out number anyone these days...that is a sad fact for your "movement". I believe 9/11 blogger would be a good place to start. go there...they will love you over there.

TAM

Good site. I find it to be one of the more objective, with many very informative articles. You can't judge any site by its comments, however.

 

[bill smith]

Anyone that looks into the history of statements from the leading lights of the "Truth Movement" will find that may half of them are to some degree anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers. They just haven't killed anyone and hopefully they will never act out on their fantasies.

Anti-semitism runs deep in most societies and has done for at least a thousand years. So it is logical to assume that many debunkers are also anti-semites. However it doesn't suit their stance on 9/11 to be up front about this as they try to beat the Truth Movement with this stick whenever somebody tries to draw the Isrealis into the 9/11 argument. Holocaust Denial is a right in America unless you can tell me otherwise ?

NB. I am personally neither anti-semitic or a Holocaust denier. I have to make this disclaimer because the above post is enough for around 90% of the current posters to attack me as an anti-semite.

 

[beachnut]

...Holocaust Denial is a right in America unless you can tell me otherwise ? ...

Yes you have the right to have dirt dumb ideas and spew Holocaust Denial, apologize for terrorists, and spread moronic lies about 911.

You have the right to have stupid ideas and you exercise it continuously.

 

[A W Smith]

Oh but how many people have even heard of alternative theories to the OCT?

I can tell you that hardly a day goes by when I don't encounter someone who still has not heard that WTC7 fell on 9/11.



When the mainstream media decides to black out any mention of alternatives, and use ridicule and derision and hate the few times it does mention some small part of alternative theories you can't claim that overwhelmingly more people do not believe the truth movement's arguments.

You don't remember Popular Mechanics? Mainstream broadcast debunking 911 conspiracy theories? You do not believe a very large segment of the US population saw it?

I don't see any contradiction in that. What is contradictory to saying that the majority of the population is actively opposing the truth movement (a point which is not valid btw) while at the same time saying the truth movement is gaining ascendancy? (did you intend to use this word to imply gaining ground? Or to imply gained enough ground to be a majority? Which is something Dave did not say)

Not so much opposed as ignored as moon battery.

gaining ascendancy is only saying gaining ground if you ignore you implied for your arguments sake. Gaining ground does not mean majority, so there is no contradiction.

I don't subscribe to your claims regardless but you should at least make sure your claims are true.

BTW, Building seven was a property loss. Not a tragedy. It is not surprising that most do not remember it.

 

[SteveAustin]

Anti-semitism runs deep in most societies and has done for at least a thousand years. So it is logical to assume that many debunkers are also anti-semites. However it doesn't suit their stance on 9/11 to be up front about this as they try to beat the Truth Movement with this stick whenever somebody tries to draw the Isrealis into the 9/11 argument. Holocaust Denial is a right in America unless you can tell me otherwise ?

NB. I am peronally neither anti-semitic or a Holocaust denier. I have to make this disclaimer because the above post is enough for around 90% of the current posters to attack me as an anti-semite.

Your denial will not be enough for some people to not call you an anti-semite. Just bringing up the facts is enough.

I am not an anti-semite either, but I constantly have to wonder why a holocaust that happened in the first half of the last century is constantly trotted out in our faces while current holocausts are ignored?

 

[Alt+F4]

When Richard Gage sets up a big public meeting and speaks at Ground Zero Al it will be the death knell for the OCT. That has to be completely obvious to everybody. The time may not yet be ripe. It's a very sensitive issue.

Yawn.

The local NYC truth group, by it's own admission, only gets 15-17 people to it's monthly meeting. This in the city most effected by 9/11....a city of over 7 million people.

 

[SteveAustin]

You don't remember Popular Mechanics? Mainstream broadcast debunking 911 conspiracy theories? You do not believe a very large segment of the US population saw it? Not so much opposed as ignored as moon battery.BTW, Building seven was a property loss. Not a tragedy. It is not surprising that most do not remember it.

What is the readership of PM? Are you claiming that a "very large segment of the US population" reads PM?

And what does WTC7 being a property loss have to do with anyone not knowing about it? Is this just another excuse "debunkers" throw up? A plausible excuse to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all? This pat little response is a perfect example of what the Mike Rivero quote was talking about, about ...

"...most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all."

So just throw up any answer at all and most people will use that as an excuse to not think for themselves.

 

[beachnut]

... while current holocausts are ignored?

Like you ignore the events of 911 and blame others because you don't understand reality?

Yes why do you ignore 19 terrorists who did 911 and make up NAZI like lies to blame others? You apologizes for terrorists, make up false flag vandalism, and have no evidence to support your ideas.

Where is your evidence for your ideas on 911? Can you list your evidence?

 

[stateofgrace]

Your denial will not be enough for some people to not call you an anti-semite. Just bringing up the facts is enough.

I am not an anti-semite either, but I constantly have to wonder why a holocaust that happened in the first half of the last century is constantly trotted out in our faces while current holocausts are ignored?

Really? So to disagree with current wars I have to buy into your as yet evidence free conspiracies about the Sept 11th attack?

Nobody mentioned that on the last anti war demo I was on, was you there?

 

[bill smith]

Your denial will not be enough for some people to not call you an anti-semite. Just bringing up the facts is enough.

I am not an anti-semite either, but I constantly have to wonder why a holocaust that happened in the first half of the last century is constantly trotted out in our faces while current holocausts are ignored?

The Isreali/9/11 connection is super sensitive and I tend to leave it alone these days. There is still planty of meat on the bone with the rest of it. All roads lead to Rome they say.

 

[stateofgrace]

"...most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all."

So just throw up any answer at all and most people will use that as an excuse to not think for themselves.

Yet you are not able to apply this same standard to the evidence free theories of the TM, why is that ?

Why do you not think for yourself when Hiewa claims, without evidence that the entire upper section of each tower was blown up? Why do you not use your critical thinking skills? Why do you not think at all and simply accept it? Why do you not question it and condemn those who do? Why do you not question anybody who tells you bombs were inside each tower, planes did not hit buildings , why do you blindly accept it?

 

[beachnut]

...
"...most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all." ...

And 911TruthLies has fooled you and you exercise the the "not to think at all" as you have zero evidence to support your failed conclusions on 911.

Who did 911? Do you have evidence or are you still hung up on why you can't use the 38 ways to win an argument with your lies on 911?

 

[A W Smith]

What is the readership of PM? Are you claiming that a "very large segment of the US population" reads PM?

I don't "read" it and few I know do. You must be from the UK. But they had a special that was broadcast on mainstream TV here a while ago. You are unaware of it? how is that possible? Or is this a handwave you are doing?

And what does WTC7 being a property loss have to do with anyone not knowing about it? Is this just another excuse "debunkers" throw up?

Simple. No one was killed in building seven. There are no memorials dedicated to the loss of victims in building seven as their are for the occupants of the towers, flight 93 scene in Shanksville, and the pentagon. So its not unexpected that a mound of dirt in rural Pennsylvania will get more recognition that an evacuated office building which collapsed on the same day.

A plausible excuse to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all? This pat little response is a perfect example of what the Mike Rivero quote was talking about, about ...

"...most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all."

So just throw up any answer at all and most people will use that as an excuse to not think for themselves.

For shame Steve-0. so people who ignore the demise of a steel, glass and concrete edifice known as building seven are moral cowards? Not satisfied that your poisoning of the well had any effect on observers on the sidelines you move to Ad Hominem logical fallacies? Are your more compassionate to building materials than the dead? You want to talk about moral cowards Steve-0? My Irony meter exploded.

 

[beachnut]

The Isreali/9/11 connection is super sensitive and I tend to leave it alone these days. There is still planty of meat on the bone with the rest of it. All roads lead to Rome they say.

That dirt dumb idea is not true. So there is no Israeli 911 connection except in your delusions on 911. Oh, you said Isreali not Israeli, so you can say anything you want about Isrealis.

You lack evidence and knowledge; so do neoNAZIs. Is that why neoNAZIs love your truther movement?

Do you have some evidence instead of constant delusions?

 

[Dave Rogers]

The ratio of debunkers to Truthers on the jref has to be at least fifty to one. I've never participted on any forum where debunkers did not outnumber Truthers by at least three to one. WWell- perhaps the pilots. So the statistics still hold fine.

OK, let's assume that you're correct, and that debunkers outnumber truthers by about 3:1. Let's also assume that TAM's correct, and that there are about 100-200 active debunkers. You've just estimated the size of the truth movement at 33-66 people in total. At the same time you're claiming that support is at an all-time high. Those two messages don't exactly stack up, do they?

But, as I say, let's assume you're correct. Let's see this evidence that debunkers have murdered at least six people in the last year, or your apology for making unwarranted accusations.

Dave

 

[Dave Rogers]

Anti-semitism runs deep in most societies and has done for at least a thousand years. So it is logical to assume that many debunkers are also anti-semites.

Now, can anybody tell me which logical fallacy that is?

Dave

 

[bill smith]

OK, let's assume that you're correct, and that debunkers outnumber truthers by about 3:1. Let's also assume that TAM's correct, and that there are about 100-200 active debunkers. You've just estimated the size of the truth movement at 33-66 people in total. At the same time you're claiming that support is at an all-time high. Those two messages don't exactly stack up, do they?

But, as I say, let's assume you're correct. Let's see this evidence that debunkers have murdered at least six people in the last year, or your apology for making unwarranted accusations.

Dave

Don't be more ridiculous than you have to be Dave. Let's not assume that TAM is correct. There must be 500 debunkers here on the jref alone nd many thousands on other forums. But I woudn't care a whit if the entire Truth Movement was only 10 people in total as long as we are being effective. And of course we are- more so every day. I think you guys feel that you can demoralise us by stressing how few our numbers are. Have you noticed the tactic working well ? All I can say is please do carry on.