Amway TV ad

[Tex2]

Foolmewunz,

Thanks, did you check out my latest post? I take one of ibofb's BS posts and add some truth.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Foolmewunz,

Thanks, did you check out my latest post? I take one of ibofb's BS posts and add some truth.

Yes, and it's good stuff. (Now that ought to bring him scurrying.)

But we're not elitists, here. Newbies with value to add are welcome to contribute, so feel free to dis-assemble anything he (or any of us, for that matter) posts here, too. There's something to be said for following the OP and thread content, but much of the discussion here concerns outside activities, blogs, comments, etc.... and the ongoing Amway vs The World debates. So anything's fair game, I reckon.

And the mods don't bite (well, except for that Tricky, person... but he's a big tick, for crissake, what should you expect). If anything crosses a line, one of them or one of the members will guide you back into line.

 

[icerat]

Which is a perfect example of the excellent training you receive to help you be successful in the Amway 'business'.

If you want to be TOLD what to do, get a boss. In my experience and research the folk who think upline advice are orders are often the ones who end up online complaining the business doesn't work.

I listen to advice and make my own decisions. Nobody tells me what to do.

It's simple. Build a large downline who like to buy CD's and go to functions. Focus on pure count and don't worry about who is moving product. After all if you sell tools the PV will follow right?

Nope, not that simple. We have a range of business metrics we focus on, which include for example number of customers and total personal PV (personal use and customer volume). Seminar attendance and such things are also some of those metrics as they've been shown to be important.

 

[Tex2]

Don't forget all those governments, judges, corporate partners, independent consumer agencies, academics etc etc etc etc for 50 years ...

They've all been "fooled" too .. but you have the real "TRUTH!"

ibofb, you like to point out the above sources, UNTIL they have a court case focused on the tool scam, then YOUR leader and his tool scam system get slammed by Amway and the UK government. Good job!

 

[Bob Klase]

I listen to advice and make my own decisions. Nobody tells me what to do.

Sure they do. You may not do what they tell you and you're free to not do what they tell you to do, but that doesn't mean they're not telling you what to do.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Nope, not that simple. We have a range of business metrics we focus on, which include for example number of customers and total personal PV (personal use and customer volume). Seminar attendance and such things are also some of those metrics as they've been shown to be important.

Of course to be CLEAR about it you aren't in a position to just the efficacy of this advice because you've never built a large business. In fact you can't say with any certainty that what I suggest isn't supremely more profitable.

 

[Almo]

Which is a perfect example of the excellent training you receive to help you be successful in the Amway 'business'.

As my creative director would say...

et BING!!!

(He's from France)

 

[Tex2]

By the way, you may see icerat/ibofb turn tail pretty soon. He and "Bridgett" apparently have a blood agreement not to respond to me. That's okay with me, because I always get in the last word. I suggest you hold his feet to the fire and demand he addresses the points I raise. That should melt his ice and send the rat scurrying to the next blog, spreading his lies and half-truths somewhere else.

 

[icerat]

Of course to be CLEAR about it you aren't in a position to just the efficacy of this advice because you've never built a large business. In fact you can't say with any certainty that what I suggest isn't supremely more profitable.

Again you just make stuff up. I've built a large enough business to be able to confirm the validity of the statistics. They were annoyingly accurate. I also have friends (from prior to them joining Amway) who have very large businesses and also confirm the statistics. In addition I have friends both IBO and non-IBO who have access to internal data from various different systems.

You on the other hand have AFAIK no experience building an Amway business at all, and are instead replying on hearsay data about one part of the Amway world.

Oh, and in one short response, Tex is right, I won't usually respond to him. He's been banned from virtually every independent Amway-related website, by both supporters and critics.

Sure they do. You may not do what they tell you and you're free to not do what they tell you to do, but that doesn't mean they're not telling you what to do.

Cease with inanity and say something useful for a change.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Well my friends say your friends are full of it

Also I'm still asking for the proof that you've built any kind of profitable Amway business that is anything other than a hobby income. How much profit have you made from Amway again?

It's a scam and you are a scammer. You are the one saying it's such a great opportunity. The burden of proof is on you that you can make ANY money doing it whatsoever.

I wonder how long it will take for me to get the same response as Tex. Oh wait, I already have as you don't reply to anything in a substantive way.

 

[icerat]

Well my friends say your friends are full of it

So all you can do to defend your point of view is accuse others of lying?

Also I'm still asking for the proof that you've built any kind of profitable Amway business that is anything other than a hobby income.

Why would a hobby income not be considered profit?

How much profit have you made from Amway again?

More than you. I've already stated I gave my Amway business to my former wife. I have no urge to contact her after 10 years and ask for audited tax returns just to satisfy your curiosity.

It's a scam and you are a scammer. You are the one saying it's such a great opportunity. The burden of proof is on you that you can make ANY money doing it whatsoever.

Again resorting to accusations of lies. This time accusing Amway of lying with their income and sales data, plus the tens of thousands of platinums and above, though I guess all the various authors and journalists who've reported on this stuff were just duped?

What's so hard to understand? Buy something, sell it for more than you bought it for, deduct expenses, make some money. There's nothing mystical or magical or even vaguely "scammy" about that.

Why is it so difficult for you to accept it's not impossible?

I wonder how long it will take for me to get the same response as Tex. Oh wait, I already have as you don't reply to anything in a substantive way.

ROFLMAO!!!!! That's hilarous. I've provided dozens of links to support various claims I've made. You've provided ... hang on, I'll just count .... yup ... mmm .... uhuh ..... nothing. Zip. Zero. Just all knowing omniscience.

 

[NewtonTrino]

You haven't provided any links or proof that *ANYONE* is making a profit from Amway. Profit != Income. Get that clear in your head.

The amount of money you have talked about your business making in the past was pitiful. Given that you aren't involved, don't talk to your ex about business how do you know your ex-business is bringing in any money at all the current time?

Bottom line AMWAY doesn't make any profit claims at all. All I'm asking is for ONE SHRED of proof that ANYONE makes money at all. Of course I won't get any because those who are profitable do so on the backs of the tools business.

Anyway it's presented as a way to replace a professional income not as a "hobby". So find me someone that clears at least $100k a year in profit (which is still lame with 2 people working btw) and also show me it's from Amway and not tools.

With ALL of the MILLIONS of people involved this should be absolutely trivial. Or do you disagree?

 

[icerat]

You haven't provided any links or proof that *ANYONE* is making a profit from Amway. Profit != Income. Get that clear in your head.

Frankly it seems like a stupid request. I don't believe anyone could seriously believe NOBODY is making money out of it. There are scans of million dollar checks to Yager from Amway - just one bonus. Are you suggesting they're faked? Or are you suggesting his expenses are more than this one check plus all the other bonuses. Amway is required by the FTC to provide income statistics - I *have* provided the link. In that link it talks about different individual bonuses of over a million dollars.

Either you believe the people receiving them have millions in expenses, or you are accusing Amway of not only lying in this information, but of managing to cover that up and somehow enlisted the aid of tens of thousands of platinums and above around the world to lie about their incomes and expenses.

The amount of money you have talked about your business making in the past was pitiful. Given that you aren't involved, don't talk to your ex about business how do you know your ex-business is bringing in any money at all the current time?

That business became my downline. I can see what volume goes through it and how it's distributed. I also know that apart from yearly members fees she has no business expenses as she's not building the business.

Bottom line AMWAY doesn't make any profit claims at all. All I'm asking is for ONE SHRED of proof that ANYONE makes money at all. Of course I won't get any because those who are profitable do so on the backs of the tools business.

So you ARE claiming that expenses outstrip income no matter what the level of income?

Seriously?

Anyway it's presented as a way to replace a professional income not as a "hobby". So find me someone that clears at least $100k a year in profit (which is still lame with 2 people working btw) and also show me it's from Amway and not tools.

How about we just try Neil Maaskant, one of the first IBOs. He's dead, has been for years. The Charlotte Maaskant Trust iboship continues to be recognized as receiving various bonuses and was recognized as Founders Emerald when that level was introduced nearly a decade ago. Nobody is working that business. It still brings in money.

Or google "Dean Kosage divorce". That's an Emerald's financial declarations for a divorce. Mind you, as you'd expect his (ex-)wife is likely upping the supposed income and he's downplaying it.

Or try "Greg Duncan bankruptcy" and check out the financial records. His Amway business appears to be bringing in $466,000/yr with expenses of $12,000.

Or just try to explain how Founders EDC's and above, average Amway incomes in excess of $1.3million more than 5 years ago, are managing to spend all of that on business expenses.

With ALL of the MILLIONS of people involved this should be absolutely trivial. Or do you disagree?

Millions of people have been Nurses. Please provide me with an audited tax return for a nurse showing she's making money. With the millions of nurses this should be trivial shouldn't it?

Why on earth you think it's a "trivial" matter to access people's private tax records is beyond me.

 

[Delscottio]

I may be getting the wrong end of the stick here but, why would you need an "upline" if you order goods from the website?

I don't understand why anyone would join if some of their self employed profit was going to someone else who did nothing to facilitate the sale. If the real money was in the products you would have top sales people with huge "rounds" and they would be utterly loathed to recruit anyone else (and then more than likely as an employee with commission - no chance would it be easy to be let in on the good stuff)

My uneducated take on it.

 

[icerat]

I may be getting the wrong end of the stick here but, why would you need an "upline" if you order goods from the website?

Not sure I understand - what do you mean by "need"?

I don't understand why anyone would join if some of their self employed profit was going to someone else who did nothing to facilitate the sale.

It doesn't.

If the real money was in the products you would have top sales people with huge "rounds" and they would be utterly loathed to recruit anyone else (and then more than likely as an employee with commission - no chance would it be easy to be let in on the good stuff)

So you believe Coca-Cola is silly to sell Coke to other wholesalers and retailers, they should be retailing it all directly to consumers themselves?

And that they're silly to pay for marketing to facilate sales?

It's much the same setup.

My uneducated take on it.

I'm afraid it is. This "we recruit competitors" idea seems to be the latest wacko concept doing the rounds of the anti-mlm world. What would you rather - make 30%-55% profit on each sale you personally create, or make 3%-25% profit on as many salespeople as you can recruit, train, and help generate volume? The first may make more money initially, but it's clearly limited by the hours you can put in. The second takes longer, but is effectively unlimited.

Let me put it another way - If you owned a car yard and were the sole salesperson, is it always a bad idea to employ another salesperson because then they're your competitor for retail sales of cars?

 

[Bob Klase]

Cease with inanity and say something useful for a change.

Don't take wooden nickles.

If someone tries to recruit you into Amway run like hell.

More useful writings available when you post something useful enough to warrant a useful reply.

 

[Delscottio]

Not sure I understand - what do you mean by "need"?

Why do you have to be recruited? There seems to be a need by Amway that you have to have one.

It doesn't.

So none of your profit goes to your upline? The upline doesn''t get any financial rewards from what you sell?

So you believe Coca-Cola is silly to sell Coke to other wholesalers and retailers, they should be retailing it all directly to consumers themselves?

And that they're silly to pay for marketing to facilate sales?

It's much the same setup.

Its not really. Coca Cola sell their product to the wholesaler / retailer and in the main thats the end of their involvement, the retailer has the right to dictate price, product position etc. Do Amway reps have this right?

The other way the product is sold is by Coca Cola traveling reps (UK this is), and yep you've guessed it they are employed by Coca Cola with sales targets.

It is also worth noting you chose one of the biggest manufacturers in the world that have a massively successful business model of selling in bulk to wholesalers and retailers - yet not one rep from Amway has been in discussions with Asda /Walmart, Tesco's etc. The holy grail for any product is to get into the supermarkets.



[quoteI'm afraid it is. This "we recruit competitors" idea seems to be the latest wacko concept doing the rounds of the anti-mlm world. What would you rather - make 30%-55% profit on each sale you personally create, or make 3%-25% profit on as many salespeople as you can recruit, train, and help generate volume? The first may make more money initially, but it's clearly limited by the hours you can put in. The second takes longer, but is effectively unlimited. [/quote]

I'd structure it like most other businesses, permanent trained competent staff where I can control customer care / service and apply sales targets. Thereby taking the maximum return while maximising return customers.

Let me put it another way - If you owned a car yard and were the sole salesperson, is it always a bad idea to employ another salesperson because then they're your competitor for retail sales of cars?

It would be a horrible idea if that salesman was the rudest person in the world and saw of punters left right and centre but you had very little control over them.

 

[icerat]

Why do you have to be recruited? There seems to be a need by Amway that you have to have one.

Not entirely true.

The products are primarily marketed through word of mouth. The people who generate the sales are compensated for that. Amway occasionally does more traditional marketing, if those leads were handled directly by Amway then they would be in direct competition with the field, which generates the great majority of their volume.

In addition, the field is expected to provide first line customer support. If a lead comes in to Amway from say a TV ad, that lead will be passed on to a local IBO, if the person agrees. If they don't agree then that person can be a direct customer of Amway, with any sales volume put into a pool and profits shared with the active field. (this setup varies from market to market)

So none of your profit goes to your upline? The upline doesn''t get any financial rewards from what you sell?

That's really two separate questions, and even then the answer depends on how you look at the distribution and compensation system. In it's simplest form it's the same as traditional distribution. An example -

* Manufacturer makes 200 widgets and sells 100 widgets to two Wholesalers for $A/widget
* Wholesaler sells 20 widgets to 5 Retailers for $A+(wholesalers profit)/widget
* Retailer sells 1 widget to 20 customers for $A+(wholesalers profit)+(retailers profit)/widget

None of the "retailers profit" went to the wholesaler or manufacturer, but the manufacturer and wholesaler do get financial rewards because the retailer is buying and selling the products.

Its not really. Coca Cola sell their product to the wholesaler / retailer and in the main thats the end of their involvement, the retailer has the right to dictate price, product position etc. Do Amway reps have this right?

Yes, Amway reps have similar rights.

The other way the product is sold is by Coca Cola traveling reps (UK this is), and yep you've guessed it they are employed by Coca Cola with sales targets.

Does that not mean that other retailers are in competition with Coca-Cola? And that Coca-Cola is thus "recruiting competition" when the sell to other wholesalers and retailers?

It is also worth noting you chose one of the biggest manufacturers in the world that have a massively successful business model of selling in bulk to wholesalers and retailers - yet not one rep from Amway has been in discussions with Asda /Walmart, Tesco's etc. The holy grail for any product is to get into the supermarkets.

Note for these types of products it's not. You'll tend not to find "high end" products of any type in Walmart, Tesco etc.

Incidentally just this month Amway UK has relaxed some of the retail outlet rules and hair salons, health stores, gyms, hair professionals etc are all now able to display Amway products for sale if they wish. Hair salons are a good example actually - most of the shampoos etc you find for sale there you won't find in supermarkets.

I'd structure it like most other businesses, permanent trained competent staff where I can control customer care / service and apply sales targets. Thereby taking the maximum return while maximising return customers.

And that's fine as a business model too. It's interesting to note though, that in it's two primary categories, Amway's approach has made it #1 (Nutrition) and #4 (prestige skincare and cosmetics) in the world, clearly outselling competitors who use the more traditional model. Clearly the model has some strengths!

It would be a horrible idea if that salesman was the rudest person in the world and saw of punters left right and centre but you had very little control over them.

Clearly the model also has some weaknesses!

 

[Tex2]

Don't forget all those governments, judges, corporate partners, independent consumer agencies, academics etc etc etc etc for 50 years ...

They've all been "fooled" too .. but you have the real "TRUTH!"

ibofb, you like to point out the above sources, UNTIL they have a court case focused on the tool scam, then YOUR leader and his tool scam system get slammed by Amway and the UK government. Good job!

 

[NewtonTrino]

Well I'm convinced. As I have been for a while. Where do I sign up?

I've always been excited about working with a "prestige" brand like Artistry (that's nobody has ever heard of).