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Amway TV ad

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I don't think you've missed much. But it frankly upsets me to see a lifelong rationalist and skeptic fooled by the Amway scam. :(

Don't forget all those governments, judges, corporate partners, independent consumer agencies, academics etc etc etc etc for 50 years ...

They've all been "fooled" too .. but you have the real "TRUTH!" :rolleyes:
 
How about a nice professional income of $100k US per year. What would it take to do that?

Also since there are many people in Amway in the US some actual tax returns or other 3rd party verifiable documentation for actual profits (not gross income, profit) would be preferred if we are going to run around making income claims.
 
Don't forget all those governments, judges, corporate partners, independent consumer agencies, academics etc etc etc etc for 50 years ...

They've all been "fooled" too .. but you have the real "TRUTH!" :rolleyes:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3644763&postcount=178

The math doesn't lie.

ETA: I never forgot that post. Sometimes having a memory like a steel trap has its advantages. Other times, like remembering saying something REALLY stupid to that cute girl 20 years ago like it were yesterday, it's not so nice. :(
 
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I can't believe there are so many pages of "debate" about an obvious MLM scam. The only people defending it are the ones who bought into it who do not want to believe they've been scammed.

If it was a legitimate business there would be no need for a referral system, and the people making the big bucks off of it would not be doing so almost solely because of their referrals.
 
I can give you my experience, although this was 15 years ago. If icerat would like to update my information, he's welcome to.

I can't update your information. Different groups do things different ways.

It was highly recommended that you subscribe to 2 tapes a week, at $6 each ($48 a month). Then you had an open meeting to go to, which was only $5, but you always went out to dinner with your up- and downline afterwards. Once a quarter there was a convention, which ran $200-$400. None of this includes transportation costs.

It's recommended that people wanting to build a large long term business get on a subscription CD or MP3 program. The basic version is $27.95/mth for 5 MP3s, $31.95 for CD version - significantly cheaper (and fewer) than what you were recommended.

"Open meetings" are a business presentation for bringing prospects to. Generally weekly or fortnightly. Whether you want to go out to a cafe or somewhere afterwards is entirely up to you, though I guess you could argue it's a business expense with the IRS. Depends what you do there I s'pose.

Quarterly conventions are in the $100-$200 range and held in multiple places around the US and the world. Much cheaper than the competition in the industry.

It was also highly recommended that you present the business plan 4-5 times a week. There was gas money involved there, as well as materials you left with the prospect. Although you (usually) get the materials back, you need to buy them to begin with, and again each time they were updated.

You don't "need" to buy anything, but like any business there are materials that will make your job easier. Our recommended work level is exposing the business and products to minimum of 8 people a month when learning or in "maintenance" type of mode and 15+ when building/expanding. 15-20hrs/week including following up etc. Some weeks maybe less, some weeks might be more depending on what you're aiming for.

So not counting food, transportation, and time spent away from home and family, there was an average of $100-$150 a month in tools that you needed to put out if you were "doing it right".

In tools alone I've never spent anything like that amount a month. Total running costs of around $300/mth for a serious person wouldn't be that unusual. Extremely cheap compared to most businesses.

Mind you, this doesn't include the product side at all. After all, how could you expect your downline to use the products if you don't? To get the recommended number of points each month, you needed to spend (or directly sell) $200-$250 on products.

This isn't a business expense at all, it's a personal household expense. Now ... if you're buying the products for self-use just to get "the points", and as I said I'm perfectly aware some folk push this type of behaviour, then you are indeed verging on pyramid scam territory.

Again, this was awhile ago, so if icerat can present updated numbers, I'd be interested in seeing how things have changed.

What group ("system") were you associated with, I'll try and find out what they promote these days.
 
Those guys were on the "insincere" list.



I'll assume it's sincere, but to be honest I'm skeptical. I have no desire to "sponsor" you so it's all academic anyway.

What's involved really depends on what people want to achieve and when, mediated by how much time they can put in to it.

Put simply we have distribution rights to over 450 Amway manufactured products, and they compensate us for any sales volume we help generate. As such, the income available is effectively unlimited, it's governed by the potential market for any or all of the current products, and any or all future products. Generate more sales volume, you earn more, simple as that. The top earners with Amway are getting 7 and 8 figure incomes (from Amway alone, not any side businesses), so clearly there's money there, but jsut as clearly those folk have worked hard for a long time to develop businesses of that size.

Give me an example of what kind of income would be interesting and I'll do my best to answer what the stats show is generally needed to obtain it.

Bolding mine.

I thought you weren't involved anymore?
 

Doesn't matter how good the math is if the assumptions are flawed. Some of the flaws -

1. JonnyFive assumes an essentially static M. In reality companies respond to market changes. If Amway was still focused on selling a single organic concentrated cleaning product, as they started with, they would have failed long ago. They're constantly looking to expand M through new products and different approaches to marketing existing products.

2. JonnyFive goes on to say "If we cannot increase m but we still increase d (by adding new distributors on the "downline"), then we naturally run into the problem of c decreasing."

This is inherently contradictory. By the nature of the business model, if you're adding d, then you are increasing m - you've found new people interested in your products or who know or think they know new people interested in your products. You can't add d for any significant period of time without increasing m. If JonnyFive's model was correct, then no MLM would exist for more than a couple of years. In reality, there are MLMs that have been in existance for more than 70 years.

A rational person, presented with that fact, might consider there's something wrong with JonnyFive's model, rather than just ignoring reality.

The major flaw is that JonnyFive is assuming, incorrectly, that the business is MLM, much like a pyramid, when that's not the business - it's a marketing strategy. Like any other marketing strategy, like in any other business, if it stopped working you adjust it or change it. Even putting that aside, there is no such thing as a static M, or for that matter static d. When I first joined I ran up some equations factoring in things like attrition rates, death rates, birth rates, sponsoring rates, activity rates etc etc and there were plenty of solutions where market saturation *never* occurred. And that's considering no changes in M or m caused by changes in product ranges and strategies - things which in reality occur all the time.
 
Bolding mine.

I thought you weren't involved anymore?

Depends what you mean by "involved". I have several Amway businesses, I just haven't been actively building them. I still get compensated for any sales that occur as a result of my past efforts.
 
I can't believe there are so many pages of "debate" about an obvious MLM scam. The only people defending it are the ones who bought into it who do not want to believe they've been scammed.

I've provided numerous references and links to "people defending it" who have not been involved. You are being more than a little selective.
 
How about a nice professional income of $100k US per year. What would it take to do that?

$100k while still building Amway actively, or $100k in "residual-like" income? Amway income alone, or including additional opportunities that become available, such as the speaking circuit?

Also since there are many people in Amway in the US some actual tax returns or other 3rd party verifiable documentation for actual profits (not gross income, profit) would be preferred if we are going to run around making income claims.

Very few (relatively speaking) in the US make that kind of money. Find one of them and ask them. Of course you'll need a lot more details to properly evaluate since smart business folk go out of their way to (legally) minimize taxable income as much as possible.
 
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Hey icerat, if you are the same person known at another board as "insider", the former IBO's & skeptics over at webraw.com/quixtar/ miss you. Joecool18 hasn't had anyone to play with there in a while. I hope you don't mind that I told them that you are here.

By the way, "residual" within Amway is only if you maintain an active (purchasing & consuming and/or selling) downline where you basically recruit your potential competition to work below you before someone else recruits them or makes them a customer. IF you are positioned in the right place in the chain, you actually can receive a decent amount of income without actively recruiting your own "frontline" distributors or helping downline anymore. That takes building a cult of personality around you or recruiting so-called "go-getters" to do that for you. That still requires some effort to achieve. Residual outside of Amway is through the tools systems once you reach a high enough Amway business level to be invited in to participate in their own tools MLM systems that coexist with but are independent of the Amway system. The real money is from the markup on "tools" and participating as a speaker in their seminars, rallies, and arena-sized quarterly functions. Been there, seen it, never achieved any level to participate in the tools income, but my upline did and has stories (as do others I have read online).

ETA: Was that you, icerat, that joecool noticed had posted disparaging comments at his own blog (amwayscheme.blogspot.com) and tried to unsuccessfully cover the tracks?

Back to lurking...
 
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If it's really you, "insider", the former IBO's & skeptics over at webraw.com/quixtar/ miss you. Joecool18 hasn't had anyone to play with in a while. I hope you don't mind that I told them that you are here.

They know where to find me on AT and TTAA if they want. I didn't join this forum to talk about Amway, it's a shame it's working out that way.

By the way, "residual" within Amway is only if you maintain an active (purchasing & consuming and/or selling) downline where you basically recruit your potential competition to work below you before someone else recruits them or makes them a customer.

A wholesale customer can't exactly be categorised as a competitor. They're competing in the retail space, but as a wholesale customer you're still profiting. They're no more a competitor than a corner store selling Coke is to Coca-Cola.

You're right about "residual" though - it's entirely based on results. If sales volume continues, you continue to get a small percentage. If it stops, your income stops. Fair, no? It can become "residual-like" if you've developed leadership that help keep that volume coming without your direct input. It might be considered like an author who continues to earn something every time someone buys his book. The sale occurs because of some middleman getting a cut, a book store or a publisher, but nevertheless the author can continue to earn an income from that sale despite no direct involvement in the sale.

IF you are positioned in the right place in the chain, you actually can receive a decent amount of income without actively recruiting your own "frontline" distributors or helping downline anymore. That takes building a cult of personality around you or recruiting so-called "go-getters" to do that for you.

That's one way to do it. A better way would be to develop a group of consumers who like your products and can't easily buy them anywhere else.

That still requires some effort to achieve.

Of course it takes effort - is that a bad thing? Do you consider it a scam because you don't get money for nothing, only for creating results?
 
I don't know if icerat is ibofb, but I do know the tool scam facts can be found here: google "Tex Amway 9 steps of truth"
 
I'll assume it's sincere, but to be honest I'm skeptical. I have no desire to "sponsor" you so it's all academic anyway.

What's involved really depends on what people want to achieve and when, mediated by how much time they can put in to it.

Put simply we have distribution rights to over 450 Amway manufactured products, and they compensate us for any sales volume we help generate. As such, the income available is effectively unlimited, it's governed by the potential market for any or all of the current products, and any or all future products. Generate more sales volume, you earn more, simple as that. The top earners with Amway are getting 7 and 8 figure incomes (from Amway alone, not any side businesses), so clearly there's money there, but jsut as clearly those folk have worked hard for a long time to develop businesses of that size.

Give me an example of what kind of income would be interesting and I'll do my best to answer what the stats show is generally needed to obtain it.

okay thanks.

my business turns over about 50-60k British pounds (what's that about 85-95k US) but its dropped significantly over the last six months. If i needed to work out just how much money I earn per hour I could do it.

so here is the question I'm a motivated self employed salesman already with a network of clients. How much time would it take for me to earn say 10,000 pounds? how much stuff would i have to sell? can i just sell and not pay for anything else? dont need tapes/conferences etc i have customers already.

if you can give me volumes/timescales i can figure out if it would ever work for me.
 
okay thanks.

my business turns over about 50-60k British pounds (what's that about 85-95k US) but its dropped significantly over the last six months. If i needed to work out just how much money I earn per hour I could do it.

so here is the question I'm a motivated self employed salesman already with a network of clients. How much time would it take for me to earn say 10,000 pounds? how much stuff would i have to sell? can i just sell and not pay for anything else? dont need tapes/conferences etc i have customers already.

OK, UK system is slightly different to US. Initial income is Custom Volume Rebate - essentially retail markup, it's set at 25%. So, as a starting point £40,000 in sales would generate £10,000 from this markup alone. However, there are additional volume rebates ranging from 6% to 25%. (actually up to 29% at present, but they're part of year to year incentives that can change so I'll leave that out). It can vary depending on the particular product mix, but more than £10,000 in sales in a month is likely to get you to the top of that scale, so we're looking at 50% profit margin. So roughly £20,000/mth in sales would generate £10,000/mth in gross profit. There's additional yearly bonuses and travel incentives if that's kept up consistently.

if you can give me volumes/timescales i can figure out if it would ever work for me.

Well, the example above, while some do it that way, isn't really the attraction of Amway for most people. What we try to do is have as many of those customers shopping direct from the website themselves, so that less time is needed to look after them. In addition, rather than try to drum up all the business ourselves, we profit share with others and give them incentives to drum up business. Done properly the end result is that you're generating far more volume than you could possibly hope to do yourself, and with decreasing amounts of effort. This approach generally takes more effort (for less immediate reward) at the beginning but with greater rewards for less effort down the track.

Amway UK implemented some novel changes last year and we don't really have enough statistics yet to be able to say what's needed with this approach to generate £10,000/mth income. Experience elsewhere in Europe indicates this kind of profit would come from a network of around 200 registered customers and consultants, with an additional 100-200 unregistered customers dealing directly with the consultants. Typically we find around 1 in 4 people approached are interested either in the business opportunity or products, so out of 100 you might pick up 25. Of those 8 or so will register and never do a thing, not even try products. A handful will be your direct personal clients, ie you take orders, deliver products etc. 4 will do nothing more than shop online, another 5 will shop and maybe introduce a couple of other people, and 3 will go out and show it to 100 folk, duplicating the process. The 3rd party business system (and related expenses) is designed to get this duplication working while minimising the time you need to devote to it. It's not recommended at all if you're only interested in developing a personal retail business, though I personallly believe the personal skills training alone is invaluable in that area.

How long it takes then depends on how quickly you expose (professionally) the setup and products to 100 people personally, go through the recommended steps with them to get them started as either clients or business partners, and then help the interested parties get the same process going. 15-20hrs/wk for 1-2 years seems to be about normal. Many folk put in a lot less hours and take longer. Some put in a lot more hours and do it quicker.
 
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Worked in practice for me as well, and has worked in practice for a number of my friends.

Ask the early people in Ponzi schemes about what they thought. The first people in Ponzi schemes get paid and are happy. Pyramid schemes work that way.
 
Worked in practice for me as well, and has worked in practice for a number of my friends.

Proof? I didn't think so...

I just found this this morning that a friend of mine's parents lost almost their entire life savings in the Madoff scandal. They were EXTREMELY happy up until it vanished. And no, I'm not joking here.
 
Ask the early people in Ponzi schemes about what they thought. The first people in Ponzi schemes get paid and are happy. Pyramid schemes work that way.

Do you really enjoy wallowing in such ignorance? "the first people"??? I joined 25 years after Amway opened in my country. The most successful people earning the most money in Amway all joined years after "the first people".

But why let reality get in the way of your own little delusions. That would require admitting maybe you misunderstood something ....
 
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