Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not

[Reality Check]

No one knows!
Much like saying what came before the big bang!

Wrong since the question is "So choose your large scale plasma , which might have double layers and then state the energy source?" and has nothing to do with the universe.

The question is about the fact that double layers in a large scale plasma need an energy source to stay separated. If PC requires double layers in a large scale plasma then it must answer the question. Since you are the latest PC "expert" on the forum you should be able to at least parrot the PC explanation.

In addition

1. This is a thread about Plasma Cosmology.
2. Big Bang theory does not start until after the Big Bang. This is analogous to evolution and the origin of life. BBT is about how the universe evolved. It is not a theory about how the universe started.

 

[Dancing David]

Sure, 300,000 volts in the Earts atmosphere isnt at all"large". I suppose that a star at 7000 trillion volts is neither important or large either. http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=5946

I brought up that for a very good reason.

Do you know why charge separates to create lightning?*

* No. You dont.

Does lightening exist on a cosmic scale?
No it doesn't.

Is your question relevant to Plasma Cosmology?
No it isn't.

 

[Dancing David]

Reality check,what values did you use for M_r and _r in your equations?

How many Coulomb's did you estimate from the solar surface (visible) to Heliosheath? (80-100Au) approx but Several? has a few meaning but lets just say 210-300Au "downwind".

What would _r be using the above example?

Remembering the E field extends from the visible surface to the Heliosheath's boundary. i.e. the boundary of the Suns double layer.

[qimg]http://www.holoscience.com/news/img/Gas_discharge.jpg[/qimg]

Hey Sol88, why don't you tell us what you think the numbers are , and then link them to cosmology or universe.

So then you will give us your

Model

we will have

Predictions

and we can look at the

Data.

 

[Dancing David]

Reality check, quote from the paper you linked



Is that correct? 10^-36 I thought it was 10³⁶ to 10³⁹?

Did I miss read something here?

Lets us see Sol88

What is the mass of an electron and a proton, what is the electrical attraction between them at 1m.

EM force/ G force

That is the 10³⁹.

What is the mass of two stars at the stated distance, the charges and the compared ratio?

EM force/ G force

That is the 10^-36.


Does that make sense yet?

 

[Sol88]

This is Exhibit #504a of the EU Argumentation Library:


#504a: To make mainstream science sound/look as incomplete as possible, cite random science questions and pretend that they're complete mysteries. At best you sow FUD. At worst you force your opponent to waste a week explaining the random question! It's win-win!

#504b: Stretch that week as long as possible by being obtuse.


Zeuzzz, atmospheric charging is straightforward (hint: triboelectricity) and you know it, or would know if you cared. Why don't you review the mainstream literature for us and explain with numbers what you see to be the flaws. Take your time, we'll wait.

What next? "Do you know why the sky is blue? You don't. Do you know why light bulbs get warm? You don't. Do you know why a magnet sticks to a fridge? You don't." We could be here for years.

May interest you Ben M.

Electric Dust Devils

Triboelectricity is bunk for the formation of a dust devil!!!

Dust particles become electrified in dust devils, when they rub against each other as they are carried by the winds, transferring positive and negative electric charge the same way you build up static electricity if you shuffle across a carpet. Scientists thought there would not be a high-voltage, large-scale electric field in dust devils, because negatively charged particles would be evenly mixed with positively charged particles, so the overall electric charge in the dust devil would be in balance.

Ever seen a leaf devil, or a grass devil or even a paper devil? i.e. They are all rotating vortex columns with NO dust!

And I have personally been on top of a "dust" devil (we call them willy willies in Oz) over 8000ft tall, looked down the guts o to speak.

It's interesting to note the amount of debris, mainly dry leaves I flew through on approach to the core but no dust, and my variometer ( which tells my height gain or loss via by measuring the charge change across to plates of a capacitor, pegged out at 10Mps)

P.S My 5watt uhf radio on transmit would do the same thing if placed too close to my vario!

Triboelectricty as the cause is bunk!

However, in an electrified universe charge is already separated on the macroscopic scale and the movement of air in a dust devil is an effect of charge recombination, not a cause of charge separation.

 

[Reality Check]

Lets us see Sol88

What is the mass of an electron and a proton, what is the electrical attraction between them at 1m.

EM force/ G force

That is the 10³⁹.

What is the mass of two stars at the stated distance, the charges and the compared ratio?

EM force/ G force

That is the 10^-36.

Does that make sense yet?

Hi David: We sorted that out.
The paper actually states 10^-36 as the EM/G relative strength between 2 idealized stars with the maximum charge derived.

 

[Reality Check]

May interest you Ben M.

Electric Dust Devils

Triboelectricity is bunk for the formation of a dust devil!!!

Ever seen a leaf devil, or a grass devil or even a paper devil? i.e. They are all rotating vortex columns with NO dust!

And I have personally been on top of a "dust" devil (we call them willy willies in Oz) over 8000ft tall, looked down the guts o to speak.

It's interesting to note the amount of debris, mainly dry leaves I flew through on approach to the core but no dust, and my variometer ( which tells my height gain or loss via by measuring the charge change across to plates of a capacitor, pegged out at 10Mps)

P.S My 5watt uhf radio on transmit would do the same thing if placed too close to my vario!

Triboelectricty as the cause is bunk!

Perhaps you would like to get back on topic (Plasma Cosmology) or start a new thread on planetary science.

 

[Sol88]

Wrong since the question is "So choose your large scale plasma , which might have double layers and then state the energy source?" and has nothing to do with the universe.

The question is about the fact that double layers in a large scale plasma need an energy source to stay separated. If PC requires double layers in a large scale plasma then it must answer the question. Since you are the latest PC "expert" on the forum you should be able to at least parrot the PC explanation.

In addition

1. This is a thread about Plasma Cosmology.
2. Big Bang theory does not start until after the Big Bang. This is analogous to evolution and the origin of life. BBT is about how the universe evolved. It is not a theory about how the universe started.

We see the evidence of electric and magnetic interactions everywhere we look in space and you are 100% correct in saying something must "drive" it (an energy source) what or where it is...I don't know!

Under the EU/PC as I understand it the Universe never "began" so there for will never end but will always evolve, just like life!

As above, so below and so below, as above!

 

[Reality Check]

We see the evidence of electric and magnetic interactions everywhere we look in space and you are 100% correct in saying something must "drive" it (an energy source) what or where it is...I don't know!

Under the EU/PC as I understand it the Universe never "began" so there for will never end but will always evolve, just like life!

As above, so below and so below, as above!

The question is does EC/PU know? If you have been so impressed by their evidence then you must have a wide knowledge of the EC/PU theory and so should be able to tell us.

Otherwise it is just an unsupported assertion. It should not be included in EU/PC.

Eternal universe theories have very big problems (basically all the problems that BBT solves). But then you know that from your extensive research.

 

[Sol88]

Reality Check in post 1998 you said

You do realize that a meteorite hitting a planet or moon releases a lot of energy? IMHO there may be some craters that actually have discharge patterns etched in the surface. So what?

IYHO how could that be if there were not charges trying to equalize?

Dont spose you'd offer up an explanation of Mercuries spider crater?

Or Tycho and Copernicus crater rays not centering on the impact?

Or crater chains

 

[Perpetual Student]

You are missing the ability to comprehend what you read. As I already said:
Note that even the author states that their calculation is a rough approximation. This means that they may be as much as an order of magnitude out (in either direction) compared to a fuller treatment.

But then they would have to be 22 orders of magnitude off in order for the galactic magnetic field to have any efffect on the Sun's orbit.

These EU/PC cultists keep missing the points you have made many times about the magnitudes of the forces involved in cosmology (gravity vs. EM forces). Either your points are ignored or a hand waving spasm is used as a response.
At first, I thought these people had some scientific basis for their theories, but the more I follow the comments here, the more I see they behave like crackpots!

 

[Sol88]

Perhaps you would like to get back on topic (Plasma Cosmology) or start a new thread on planetary science.

They are evidence of planetary scale electric discharges which would require a source of power and someway to transmit it!

I mean if our Moon can act like a large capacitor charging via the solar "wind", what happens to that charge?

LINK

Solar Wind vs. Magnetotail: Earth's magnetotail isn't the only source of plasma to charge the Moon. Solar wind can provide charged particles, too; indeed, most of the time, the solar wind is the primary source. But when the Moon enters the magnetotail, the solar wind is pushed back and the plasma sheet takes over. The plasma sheet is about 10 times hotter than the solar wind and that gives it more "punch" when it comes to altering the charge balance of the Moon's surface. Two million degree electrons in the plasma sheet race around like crazy and many of them hit the Moon's surface. Solar wind electrons are relatively cool at only 140 thousand degrees, and fewer of them zip all the way down to the shadowed surface of the Moon's nightside.

I mean it' s just an airless rocky body immersed in a quasi neutral plasma flow, causing charge separation, does the charge just keep building?

By which mechanism would it try and seek equilibrium?

Would charge equalization leave any evidence?

I think so!!

Most of the time the power involved would produve something akin to Transient lunar phenomenon

Electrostatic phenomena
It has been suggested that effects related to either electrostatic charging or discharging might be able to account for some of the transient lunar phenomena. One possibility is that electrodynamic effects related to the fracturing of near-surface materials could charge any gases that might be present, such as implanted solar wind or radiogenic daughter products.[26] If this were to occur at the surface, the subsequent discharge from this gas might be able to give rise to phenomena visible from Earth. Alternatively, it has been proposed that the triboelectric charging of particles within a gas-borne dust cloud could give rise to electrostatic discharges visible from Earth.[27] Finally, electrostatic levitation of dust near the terminator could potentially give rise to some form of phenomenon visible from Earth.[28]

And crank up the juice and...see post 2130

 

[Sol88]

These EU/PC cultists keep missing the points you have made many times about the magnitudes of the forces involved in cosmology (gravity vs. EM forces). Either your points are ignored or a hand waving spasm is used as a response.
At first, I thought these people had some scientific basis for their theories, but the more I follow the comments here, the more I see they behave like crackpots!

Did you read the paper in question?

electrostatics on idealized star?

How 'bout we go for electrodynamics on a real star, our Sun?

 

[The Man]

Sure, 300,000 volts in the Earts atmosphere isnt at all"large". I suppose that a star at 7000 trillion volts is neither important or large either. http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=5946

I brought up that for a very good reason.

Do you know why charge separates to create lightning?*

* No. You dont.

Transmission line voltages are typically 110,000 volts and above.

 

[Sol88]

This is not even a sentence! (I guess "do" should be "though")

We have answered your questions, Sol88, now you have to come with your EU model on how a star is kept in orbit around the centre of a galaxy.

Give us the answer, must be easy or are you too chicken?

chicken
chicken
chicken
chicken
chicken

tooooooocktocktocktock
tooooooocktocktocktock
tooooooocktocktocktock
tooooooocktocktocktock

Easy

And

And the power source we are looking for

The Universe (the plasma one) can both be driven and drive! i.e. a motor and a generator. Gravity can not do such a thing

Ian Tresman's Plasma Universe.com

The behavior of the electromagnetic field can be resolved into four different parts of a loop: (1) the electric and magnetic fields are generated by electric charges, (2) the electric and magnetic fields interact only with each other, (3) the electric and magnetic fields produce forces on electric charges, (4) the electric charges move in space.

A particle at rest feels only the force due to the electric field.

 

[DeiRenDopa]

[...]

I'm not an EU proponent. I'm an EU skeptic, and can see woo when I see it. I'm am however a proponent of a plasma cosmology approach to cosmological models.

What calculations do you want? I'm more than capable, but no such request has been given if I can recall.

[...]

(bold added)

I'll take you up on your offer, thank you.

My first request is that you calculate "the current density on the stars surface" that would be required to account for their observed luminosities. Order of magnitude estimates will do, but answers in Amps/m^2 if you please. Start with the Sun, then move on to a typical M dwarf, go up the Main Sequence, and then out to the various giants and supergiants. Oh, and make sure you carefully state your assumptions and input values (such as the stars' luminosities).

For lurkers: this will be a good test of Z's ability, given his posts, in this thread, on this subject (an anchor post might be this one - go back up the thread and then forward to read the whole dialogue).

I have several other calculations that I'd like you to show you can perform, once you've dealt with this, relatively simple and straight-forward one.

 

[ben m]

Easy

[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/5/3/a/53a6eadab619ab497d9ea53061fd6ec7.png[/qimg]

And

[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/3/9/9/3991a7c07cd27388bf58539585eb07b3.png[/qimg]

Thank you for finally giving a clear answer to the question "in PC, what force governs the Sun's orbit around the galaxy". See how easy that was?

Once we have a detailed-enough hypothesis, Sol88, we can use it to make predictions. One of the predictions of your model is an enormous oscillation of frequency 23h 56m 4.090530833s in the test mass of the Eot-Wash experiment. No such oscillation was seen and your theory is now ruled out. B.R. Heckel et. al., Ad. Space Res. 25, 1125 (2000).

 

[DeiRenDopa]

Anaconda

[...]


(First, you can use the "quote" button in every message, then you don't have to write "tusenfem wrote", and which makes it clearer what the quoted text is and what you wrote).

[...]

I don't think he (she?) can, yet.

I remember being very frustrated, when I started posting in this forum, with the limitation newbies have, wrt quoting ... IIRC, until your postcount is 15 (or 16?), you cannot use that button.

As of now (when I'm writing this post), he's only up to ten, so five to go ...

 

[The Man]

They are evidence of planetary scale electric discharges which would require a source of power and someway to transmit it!

I mean if our Moon can act like a large capacitor charging via the solar "wind", what happens to that charge?

A capacitor is a pair of conductors separated by a dialectic material. In DC it appears as a open circuit when charged, in AC it appears as basically a short circuit but alters the voltage to current phase relationship. Since the solar wind carries both + and - charges, any minor charge that could develop would quickly be neutralized.

 

[Ziggurat]

Or crater chains

That one's trivially easy. When an asteroid or small comet which is held together loosely gets near a planet or moon, tidal forces can pull it apart into a string of objects. If that string then hits the planet or moon, in will create a line of impact points. We have observed this happen: google "comet Shoemaker-Levy Jupiter collision".

Just because you don't know the explanation doesn't mean there isn't one.