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Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not

From the "NASA Pseudo-skeptic Receives Rebuttal from Electric Universe Theorist" thread.
To end this bried hijack of this thread, I should just point out that RealityChecks list there is ridiculous and nothing to do with plasma cosmology models. Most of the things in that list are merely alternative plasma physics models that could either fall under the scope of EU, plasma universe ideas, standard (though underappreciated) plasma physics or mere by products of Aflvens modelling of real plasma behaviour. All of which are certainly vaguely relevant to plasma cosmology, but to say that they show what plasma cosmology is it patently abserd.

To avoid further derailing of this thread, if you disagree or want to quote/reply to this please do so in this thread: [URL="http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112661"]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112661[/URL]

To keep Zeuzzz honest, readers should not that somone called Zeuzzz agreed with the list and indeed added several items to it.
 
From the "NASA Pseudo-skeptic Receives Rebuttal from Electric Universe Theorist" thread.

To keep Zeuzzz honest, readers should not that somone called Zeuzzz agreed with the list and indeed added several items to it.


Thats when I was personally conflating what are various alternative plasma universe models (call them what you like, EU/PC/PU/ES...) with cosmologically significant models. Which I didn't do a very good job of distunguishing back then, admitedly.

Some of them (infact most of them) do act as strong evidence for the conecpts that a lot of plasma cosmologies are based on. But none are representative of the whole picture. If you want a better overview of the earlier plasma cosmolgy model, this would be a better start: http://bigbangneverhappened.org/wiki.htm

Though there are various recent additions and offshoots, just as there are many separate theories and offshoots of BBT.
 
@ Reality check:

Reality Check states: "Synchrotron radiation has been widely detected from galactic jets, pulsars, etc. This is not evidence for electric currents in space.
It is evidence for the acceleration of electrons by the magnetic fields induced in the plasmas surrounding energetic objects."

Yes, it is evidence of electric currents in space. Magnetic fields are only created by ordered movement of electrons. It has not been demonstrated that simple thermal friction produces ordered electron movement that generates a magnetic field.
You need to be clearer by what you mean by "electric currents in space".

I am talking about the sources of synchrotron radiation. These are not electric currents in space. The synchrotron radiation is always (as far as I know) associated with energetic sources such as galactic jets, pulsars, etc. The electric currents are in the plasma associated with those sources. These are "in space" but actually in a specifc subset of space - the volumes of plasma associated with energetic sources.

When you just say "space" the implication is general space, e.g any volume between any 2 arbitary stars or galaxies. Synchrotron radiation is not evidence of electric currents existing between

But I am ready to be proved wrong.
Perhaps you can give me a few citations to papers that list sources of synchrotron radiation that are not associated with energetic sources?

Alternately there are other papers you can cite.
  • EU electric currents between stars:
    There have to hundreds of papers that show that Milky Way has a synchrotron radiation background from the billions? of electric currents in space. Any astronomer who looks at the center of the Milk Way will detect this.
  • PC electric currents between galaxies
    There have to be thousands of papers that show that the Milky Way is embedded in a number of Peratt's galactic cosmic filaments with electric current running through them. The synchrotron radiation from these will be seen any time that an astronomer points a telescope to view something outside the Milky Way.
    There have to be doxens of papers that show that other galaxies are embedded in a number of Peratt's galactic cosmic filaments with electric current running through them. The synchrotron radiation from these will be seen any time that an astronomer points a telescope to view a galaxy - especially galaxies that are edge on to use like the Sombrero Galaxy.
...snip...
@Reality Check stated: "Double layers are a minor cause of the acceleration of electrons and ions (read tusenfem's reply to you). They are definitely not the "engine of electromagnetism". My guess is that astronomers would say that magnetic fields are the engine of electromagnetism in space (mainly because they can be detected easier than electric fields)."

I read tusenfem's answer and it provided no articulated limit to the size of a double layer.
Unless, tusenfem or somebody else is going to deny that electromagnetism is scalable, then it follows that double layers are not limited either.
"Electromagnetism" is not scalable, for example I do not feel the electromagnetic forces from the Moon. But what you are probably talking about plasma scaling, i.e. the scaling of the peoperties of plasma. These properties are scalable within limits. Note that the article only goes up intergalactic plasmas and has:
Limitations
While these similarity transformations capture some basic properties of plasmas, not all plasma phenomena scale in this way. Consider, for example, the degree of ionization, which is dimensionless and thus would ideally remain unchanged when the system is scaled. The number of charged particles per unit volume is proportional to the current density, which scales as x -2, whereas the number of neutral particles per unit volume scales as x -1 in this transformation, so the degree of ionization does not remain unchanged but scales as x -1.


Tyipcal debye lengths means that if you had an external power source to enforce the separation of charges in a double layer then in the intergalactic medium the double layers would be separated by ~1,000,000 m. A light year is 9,460,730,472,580,800 m. A really small cosmological distance is a million light years: 9,460,730,472,580,800,000,000 m.

"Double layers are a minor cause of the acceleration of electrons and ions."

No. they are a the primary source of acceleration of electrons and ions. Yes, gravity does cause acceleration of electrons and ions, but at an order of magnitude 39 times less than electromagnetism.
Wrong. The electromagnetic constant is 39 orders of magnitude greater than the gravitational constant. But the electromagnetc force can be shielded, e.g. on large scales plasmas are quasineutral. Thus in general on large scales gravitational forces dominate.

Reality Check: "My guess is that astronomers would say that magnetic fields are the engine of electromagnetism in space (mainly because they can be detected easier than electric fields)."

Your guess is wrong. Only astronomers that aren't aware of Maxwell's Equations would say, "magnetic fields are the engine of electromagnetism in space."
Added the the bold. But you are right. Astronomers should say that Maxwell's Equations are the engine of electromagnetism.

As I stated previously, above, ordered electron movement causes magnetic fields.
Sort or right if we are looking at magnetic fields in space - but the elecric currents need not be in space. The Earth has a magnetic field. The Sun has a magnetic field.

But what causes the "ordered electron movement?"

Reality Check stated: "AFAIK, the electric currents in interstellar space as postulated by PC/EU have not been detected."

Magnetic fields have been detected in interstellar space. Therefore, unless Maxwell's Equations have been repealed (they haven't), you cant have magnetic fields unless and untill there is ordered electron movement, electric currents, which generate magnetic fields.

Reality Check states: "The EU electric currents that are supposed to power stars definitely do not exist because the Ulysses spacecraft has measured the solar wind ("electric current") around the Sun and it happens to be entirely outward."

The 'Electric Sun' hypothesis is the most controversial corollary of electromagnetic theory, it is strictly "bonus round" material. I will add, though, only as an aside, that 'electron drift' toward the Sun has been detected.
If you mean the solar inflow then that is not the ES current (it does not reach the sun, it does not arrive from outer space and it thought to be the recycling of outflows)

Models do exist, Dr. Anthony Peratt has produced a computer simulation (particle in cell) of galaxy formation, with all the mathematical formula included. Hannes Alfven did some quantification of plasma physics including space physics.
You need to read the postings in this thread where Dr. Anthony Peratt computer simulation has been shown to be wrong. As another example of its problems:
It is actually a simulation of galaxies that are an average of 350 megaparasecs thick. That is 1 billion light years.
PC proponents fix this by assuming that the galaxies are not formed all along the filament pairs but specific points. They forget that this invalidates the computer simulation.
 
Thats when I was personally conflating what are various alternative plasma universe models (call them what you like, EU/PC/PU/ES...) with cosmologically significant models. Which I didn't do a very good job of distunguishing back then, admitedly.

Some of them (infact most of them) do act as strong evidence for the conecpts that a lot of plasma cosmologies are based on. But none are representative of the whole picture. If you want a better overview of the earlier plasma cosmolgy model, this would be a better start: http://bigbangneverhappened.org/wiki.htm

Though there are various recent additions and offshoots, just as there are many separate theories and offshoots of BBT.
This sounds like what we have been saying all along, except now you have got around the "mutually inconsistant" problem by splitting them up into a number of different "plasma cosmologies".

Do they have names? What are their models? What predictions does each plasma cosmology give (e.g. fits to the CMB)?
What is the most right plasma cosmology and why?
 
Tusenfem wrote

Considering

1%?

Even a partially ionized gas in which as little as 1% of the particles are ionized can have the characteristics of a plasma (i.e. respond to magnetic fields and be highly electrically conductive).

Which other ionized gases are NOT plasma's then Tusenfem?
That was me Sol88.
If you want to have 1% ionization as an arbitrary definition of a plasma then that means that all ionized gas with an ionization < 1% is not a plasma. Therefore not all ionized gas is a plasma and you argee with my statement. Or maybe you have proof that all ionized gas has at least 1% ionization?

Any ionized gas that does not meet the criteria to be a plasma is not a plasma:
Definition of a plasma


Although a plasma is loosely described as an electrically neutral medium of positive and negative particles, a definition can have three criteria:[8][9][10]
  1. The plasma approximation: Charged particles must be close enough together that each particle influences many nearby charged particles, rather than just interacting with the closest particle (these collective effects are a distinguishing feature of a plasma). The plasma approximation is valid when the number of charge carriers within the sphere of influence (called the Debye sphere whose radius is the Debye screening length) of a particular particle are higher than unity to provide collective behaviour of the charged particles. The average number of particles in the Debye sphere is given by the plasma parameter, "Λ" (the Greek letter Lambda).
  2. Bulk interactions: The Debye screening length (defined above) is short compared to the physical size of the plasma. This criterion means that interactions in the bulk of the plasma are more important than those at its edges, where boundary effects may take place. When this criterion is satisfied, the plasma is quasineutral.
  3. Plasma frequency: The electron plasma frequency (measuring plasma oscillations of the electrons) is large compared to the electron-neutral collision frequency (measuring frequency of collisions between electrons and neutral particles). When this condition is valid, electrostatic interactions dominate over the processes of ordinary gas kinetics.
 
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Let's see.

3600 Coulombs = 1 A/h

1000000/3600 = 278 A/h

Typical automotive battery: 70 amp-hours

278/70 = 3.98

So, no, FOUR car batteries. :P


Point?

If you deliver a current of 6.0A for 5.0 hours with the voltage across the battery terminals at 12V in the process, the energy is delivered to the battery is going to be 1.3x10^6 Joules. So what?

Put your tongue between the positive and negative terminals of four car batteries and report your findings here.
 
Reality check, do have those calculations on the estimated charge of the solar surface?

May I have them please or a link to that post in which you did them?

Along with the source of your input variables?
The paper (not mine) is "On the global electrostatic charge of stars".
It is not an estimated charge. It is an calculation of the maximum electrostatic charge on the Sun. Note that even the author states that their calculation is a rough approximation. This means that they may be as much as an order of magnitude out (in either direction) compared to a fuller treatment.

But then they would have to be 22 orders of magnitude off in order for the galactic magnetic field to have any efffect on the Sun's orbit.
 
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Point?

If you deliver a current of 6.0A for 5.0 hours with the voltage across the battery terminals at 12V in the process, the energy is delivered to the battery is going to be 1.3x10^6 Joules. So what?

You're the one who brought up the Earth's global circuit, apparently with the hope of convincing us that this is an example of how electrostatic potentials are in Nature are obviously important, large, and mysterious. You failed.
 
You're the one who brought up the Earth's global circuit, apparently with the hope of convincing us that this is an example of how electrostatic potentials are in Nature are obviously important, large, and mysterious. You failed.


Sure, 300,000 volts in the Earts atmosphere isnt at all"large". I suppose that a star at 7000 trillion volts is neither important or large either. http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=5946

I brought up that for a very good reason.

Do you know why charge separates to create lightning?*

* No. You dont.
 
Sure, 300,000 volts in the Earts atmosphere isnt at all"large". I suppose that a star at 7000 trillion volts is neither important or large either. http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=5946

I brought up that for a very good reason.

Do you know why charge separates to create lightning?*

* No. You dont.

This is Exhibit #504a of the EU Argumentation Library:


#504a: To make mainstream science sound/look as incomplete as possible, cite random science questions and pretend that they're complete mysteries. At best you sow FUD. At worst you force your opponent to waste a week explaining the random question! It's win-win!

#504b: Stretch that week as long as possible by being obtuse.


Zeuzzz, atmospheric charging is straightforward (hint: triboelectricity) and you know it, or would know if you cared. Why don't you review the mainstream literature for us and explain with numbers what you see to be the flaws. Take your time, we'll wait.

What next? "Do you know why the sky is blue? You don't. Do you know why light bulbs get warm? You don't. Do you know why a magnet sticks to a fridge? You don't." We could be here for years.
 
This is Exhibit #504a of the EU Argumentation Library:


#504a: To make mainstream science sound/look as incomplete as possible, cite random science questions and pretend that they're complete mysteries. At best you sow FUD. At worst you force your opponent to waste a week explaining the random question! It's win-win!

#504b: Stretch that week as long as possible by being obtuse.


So you dont know how the charge can separate? There is a mystery here, unfortunately my friend.

An no, its not as if its some conspiracy and has not been talked about, and triboelectricity does not explain it. In fact Tim Thompson linked to some really interesting publications in the Earths complex electric environment:

Tim Thompson said:
I Harrison, 2004 is the only fairly recent review of the global electric circuit I know of that is freely accessible via the arXiv server, but you can also seek out Rycroft, et al., 2008; Rycroft, at al., 2007 & Singh, et al., 2007 for more recent reviews. There is a good outline of the basic physics in The Feynman Lectures on Physics, volume II, chapter 9.


Zeuzzz, atmospheric charging is straightforward (hint: triboelectricity) and you know it, or would know if you cared. Why don't you review the mainstream literature for us and explain with numbers what you see to be the flaws. Take your time, we'll wait.


I have. Read the links in the "mainstream literature" above and maybe you coulkd fill me in the causative reason for the 300,000 voltage potential difference your sitting right next to now. They address its properties, its various aspects, and other things, but for as to how such charge separation actually is maintained, I have never seen any adequate explanation.

And unfortunately for you much of the plasma cosmology and plasma physics (that could explain the above) that we have been discussing in this thread is also "mainstream literature" in just as reputable journals. You want links to anything specific?

What next? "Do you know why the sky is blue? You don't. Do you know why light bulbs get warm? You don't. Do you know why a magnet sticks to a fridge? You don't." We could be here for years.


Well, those questions are obviously ridiculous, as you know. And this thread is still alive and kicking after nearly a year. If you dont want to participate then, kindly, **** off.
 
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The paper (not mine) is "On the global electrostatic charge of stars".
It is not an estimated charge. It is an calculation of the maximum electrostatic charge on the Sun. Note that even the author states that their calculation is a rough approximation. This means that they may be as much as an order of magnitude out (in either direction) compared to a fuller treatment.

But then they would have to be 22 orders of magnitude off in order for the galactic magnetic field to have any effect on the Sun's orbit.

Reality check,what values did you use for Mr and r in your equations?

How many Coulomb's did you estimate from the solar surface (visible) to Heliosheath? (80-100Au) approx but
Its distance from the Sun is approximately 80 to 100 astronomical units (AU) at its closest point; however, the heliosheath is shaped like the coma of a comet, and trails several times that distance in the direction opposite to the Sun's path through space.
Several? has a few meaning but lets just say 210-300Au "downwind".

What would r be using the above example?

Remembering the E field extends from the visible surface to the Heliosheath's boundary. i.e. the boundary of the Suns double layer.

Gas_discharge.jpg
 
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Okay first a little note to Zeuzzz and Sol88. Maybe some people do not answer your messages immediately, because:
- they are working
- they are asleep
- they also have another life outsite of JREF
Don't be so frakking impatient.
 
Reality check, quote from the paper you linked

We can also demonstrate that the electrostatic interaction
between two idealized stars charged with the electrostatic
charges, derived here, is extremely weak compared
to gravity. The magnitude of electrostatic force represents
only about 10−36 of the magnitude of gravity

Is that correct? 10-36 I thought it was 1036 to 1039?

Did I miss read something here?
 
Anaconda

Apparently, you have not understood a word of what I wrote in my lengthy answer. And apparently you cannot read, and similar to Sol88 you put words in the mouths of other people (in this case Reality Check) to hide your misunderstanding of what is written. But anywhoooooooooooooooo

tusenfem stated: "Whatever do you mean with "dynamo of electromagnetism"? A double layer is just a small scale (several 10s of deBye lengths) charge separation in a plasma, either driven by the presence of a current or by a boundary of two plasmas with different properties. There is absolutely NO dynamo there, but maybe you understand the word dynamo different from its usual definition."

That's in the laboratory, but electromagnetism is known to be scalable up to 14 orders of magnitude if not up to 20 orders of magnitude or beyond. No limit on scalability has been encountered, yet for electromagnetism.

If that is true, then tusenfem, your discussion has some validity in the laboratory, but again, I ask you, tusenfem, what is the limit on the size and power of double layers?

(First, you can use the "quote" button in every message, then you don't have to write "tusenfem wrote", and which makes it clearer what the quoted text is and what you wrote).

Plasma scaling, yeah I know, Alfvén has written about it, but would you please tell me how you would like to scale my laboratory double layers (well I also discussed them on the sun, so not really laboratory) to the universe? Observations in the Earth's magnetosphere have shown that double layers in nature are indeed several tens of deBye lengths. Unfortunately, I cannot find the reference at the moment, but plasma physics calculations on double layers, trying to find out the size, have shown that this is a good estimate. That is all based on the way that DLs can be create (instabilities and such) which all lead to a scaling with the deBye length. And yes, you can "scale up" the deBye length, because that is dependent on density, temperature, plasma composition.

But I asked you, what do you mean with the "power" of a DL? Do you mean how much it will accelerate an electron or ion? The gamut of DL electric field strengths runs from very weak (less then the thermal energy of the plasma particles) to relativistic (meaning that electrons can be accelerated over 0.5 MeV). The question is moot, because it all depends on what the situation is. Double layers are effects in a plasma, not causes. An example:

Current in the Earth's magnetosphere, field aligned. The current flows from the relative dense plasmasheet in the tail to the high latitude regions which have much less density. Now, at a certain point the density will become too small to maintain j = n q v, and thus, as current must be divergenceless in this region, the only possibility is to increase v. This is done by the creation of an electric field, maintained by a DL.

So, cause and effect. DLs are created by instabilities or discontinuities.

tusenfem states: "Whatever do you mean with "dynamo of electromagnetism"?
Double layers accelerate both electrons and ions.
Acceleration, constant force equalls acceleration, is the key to dynamic electromagnetic processes.

So, you do not mean dynamo, you mean that the accelerated particles exiting a DL can again create instabilities (see my "solar flare" paper, did you download it?) and thus drive some dynamic processes. NOTE dynamo ≠ dynamic.

And then, as an important aside, most of the electric fields that accelerate particles are inductive electric fields, created by moving magnetic fields. Double layers are not inductive electric fields and they are few and far between.

And also non-constant forces accelerate particles and can be important for processes. E.g. electron acceleration through solitary kinetic Alfvén waves, where in the end the wave is gone and the particles are energized.
 
Thats because the idea that EM forces could accelerate objects as massive as a star around a galaxy is absurd.

Tell that to Soll88 I know it is nonsense

You have to start getting into paradoxical, sort of philosophical realms, to do with renormalization grouping and universality (like some of the complex ideas behind various Phase transitions, electrical breakdowns, plasma scaling, self-similarities, similarity transformation laws, problem of infinities in quantum field theories, etc, etc)

Oh bruhwhahwhah, I am sorry that mathematics develops itself and comes up with lots of interesting new ways to look at things. Get over it.

There are ways round this. But nothing defintive as of yet. A simple geometrical extention of gravity so it obeys the same geometric laws as EM forces (such as amperes law) could enable Peratts model to work without even using EM forces.

Aparently, Peratt is not convinced of that, otherwise he would have done so. Also, in most simulations gravity is described exactly the same way as EM is, namely just an inverse square law.

Again, instead of moaning about Peratts models here, why not email him personally and ask him any queries? You can find his email easily online.

Not my job, that is for the PROPONENTS, THEY have to make the case, why should I help them? But be my guest, Zeuzzz, send him a message and ask him.

Na man, Have YOU read Cosmic Plasma by Alfven?* This gives a whole different perspective on plasmas behaviour, and while its a very old book now, the ideas therein still remain valid to this day and STILL underappreciated by most standard plasma models.

Actually, I have a 1st edition here on my desk. It is old, indeed. Some stuff is good. But science has also developed since Birkeland and Alfvén.

Theres a HUGE difference between your pseudoplasma with its mathematical elegance and simplicity, and the highly irratic and unpredictable reality of plasma behaviour.

REALLY???????? Then why can I find basically EXACTLY what I can calculate with my "pseudoplasma" in the data I get from satellites? I guess the PTB take a first look at the data before they send them out and model them in such a way that they are in agreement with mainstream theory. RIIIIIIIGGGGGGHHHHHTTTTTTT.

I'm not an EU proponent. I'm an EU skeptic, and can see woo when I see it. I'm am however a proponent of a plasma cosmology approach to cosmological models.

What calculations do you want? I'm more than capable, but no such request has been given if I can recall.

Well, weird kind of skeptic then.
Well, one was the star, but you suddenly come with some kind of magnetosphere. How does that figure into the electric current system from Alfvén? If there is a current system as Alfvén describes, then there can be coupling to a galactic magnetic field. So, your first point was moot. Show us what kind of electromagnetic forces are working on the stars.

Or, e.g. in Peratt's "simulation of galaxy creation", is all the plasma in the arms that he sees? It seems so, from his book. How does that correspond to the mainstream knowledge that between the arms of a galaxy the star density is not zero? Look at Reality Check's messages about the "interarm star density".
 
Any ionized gas that does not meet the criteria to be a plasma is not a plasma:

Could not have said it better myself, RC!
And then to think that in some message Sol88 came up with the list of when an ionized gas is a plasma (well after I wrote it down first). Sol88 seems to have a very bad memory.
 
Sure, 300,000 volts in the Earts atmosphere isnt at all"large". I suppose that a star at 7000 trillion volts is neither important or large either. http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=5946

Ah, you forget that these particles are accelerated by the v×B force, the very strong magnetic field and the very fast rotation rate generating enormous potential drops along the field lines at the magnetic poles of the pulsar. This does not mean that the pulsar itself has a "charge" of 7000 trillion volts.
 
Reality check, quote from the paper you linked

Is that correct? 10-36 I thought it was 1036 to 1039?

Did I miss read something here?
See this Wikipedia article . Make sure to read the footnote:
Approximate. The exact strengths depend on the particles and energies involved.
That value is what they quote.
If you consider the strength of gravity as 1 then the relative strength of electromagnetism is 1036
But the coupling constants for the four fundamental forces are 1 for the strong force, 1/137 for electromagnetism and 10-39 for gravity.
Some people use the coupling constant for gravity.

The comparison is totally dependent on the situation, e.g. the relative strength
  • between 2 electrons is 8.1*10-37
  • between a proton an electron is 4.4*10-40
  • between the Earth and the Moon the relative strength is a really really big number (1 divided by a really really small number).
 

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