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Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not

Reality check wrote:
No one answered because that answer is obvious and we did not want to embarrass you. But since you asked for it:
Starburst formation happens in the collisions of galaxies. You have not read or been able to understand the posts or the links. You thus are ignorant of the fact that the observations are collisions of galactic clusters.

No that's not the question I asked, I understand that under the standard model starburst formation is "supposed" to happen in galaxy collisions (clusters or not)!

Correct or not Reality check?

One galaxy colliding into another or a whole mob a galaxies (a cluster) colliding, what's the difference?

Still lots of bump'n and friction shock fronts and whatever else mainstream throw in!

Tusenfem wrote:
Why no starburst? Maybe because it is a collision of clusters? I hope you know the difference between galaxies and clusters. So, no, "our theory" would NOT predict starburst in this collision of two clusters.

yeah! a Galaxy is one a cluster is many, do what difference would that make to a starburst?
 
No that's not the question I asked, I understand that under the standard model starburst formation is "supposed" to happen in galaxy collisions (clusters or not)!

Correct or not Reality check?
If "(clusters or not)" means that it does not matter whether the colliding galaxies are in a cluster or not then yes.

You are still confused about the topic of this thread - notice the words "Plasma Cosmology" in the title (not "standard model").
Pointing out flaws (and there are a few) in the standard model of cosmology has no bearing on whether PC is correct or not.

As an example, I could list the flaws in the Steady State Model - do you think that this shows that the Big Bang theory is right? What about PC? What about Quasi SSM?

Perhaps you can give us a citation to the published paper or textbook that gives the PC/EU explanation of starburst formation?

One galaxy colliding into another or a whole mob a galaxies (a cluster) colliding, what's the difference?
The difference is that clusters are really big. The galaxies in colliding clusters do not usually collide.

The galaxies can collide. And starburst galaxies may evolve from these collisions. However you have stated that there are no starburst galaxies in the collisions and not given any citations.
I can find no reference to colliding galaxies in 1E 0657-56 and MACS J0025.4-1222 so starburst formation is moot (unless you can give us the citations).

In addition: 1E 0657-56 and MACS J0025.4-1222 show the separation between ordinary and dark matter clearly because the collision was at a high velocity. This means that their galaxies may not have time enough to interact, merge and starburst.

But galaxies in galactic clusters do collide and in fact give more evideence of dark matter (but make its nature more mysterious):
Dark Matter Mystery Deepens in Cosmic 'Train Wreck'

Abell 754 is also interesting.
 
yeah! a Galaxy is one a cluster is many, do what difference would that make to a starburst?

This is not even a sentence! (I guess "do" should be "though")

We have answered your questions, Sol88, now you have to come with your EU model on how a star is kept in orbit around the centre of a galaxy.

Give us the answer, must be easy or are you too chicken?

chicken
chicken
chicken
chicken
chicken

tooooooocktocktocktock
tooooooocktocktocktock
tooooooocktocktocktock
tooooooocktocktocktock
 
One galaxy colliding into another or a whole mob a galaxies (a cluster) colliding, what's the difference?
It's the difference between two galaxies colliding and the intergalactic medium colliding. One is two galaxies colliding, the other is two low density high temperature volumes of gas colliding, with the galaxies within passing through in a largely collisionless manner.
 
tusenfem, nice post!

Anywho, please allow me a little time to come up with the theory of everything, but it is under way, with math and all!
 
Dark problems!

Reality Check, do you concede there are LARGE problems at this time with mainstreams understand of dark matter?

I mean I read ALL the links that are posted by every one in this thread and your link to Dark Matter Mystery Deepens in Cosmic 'Train Wreck'

MUST throw up a red light, for instance Quote
"The observation of this group of galaxies that is almost devoid of dark matter flies in the face of our current understanding of the cosmos," said Dr. Arif Babul, University of Victoria. "Our standard model is that a bound group of galaxies like this should have a lot of dark matter. What does it mean that this one doesn't?"

Snip

In the Bullet Cluster, known as 1E 0657-56, the hot gas is slowed down during the collision but the galaxies and dark matter appear to continue on unimpeded. In Abell 520, it appears that the galaxies were unimpeded by the collision, as expected, while a significant amount of dark matter has remained in the middle of the cluster along with the hot gas.

Mahdavi and his colleagues have two possible explanations for their findings, both of which are uncomfortable for prevailing theories. The first option is that the galaxies were separated from the dark matter through a complex set of gravitational "slingshots.” This explanation is problematic because computer simulations have not been able to produce slingshots that are nearly powerful enough to cause such a separation.

The second option is that dark matter is affected not only by gravity, but also by an as-yet-unknown interaction between dark matter particles. This exciting alternative would require new physics and could be difficult to reconcile with observations of other galaxies and galaxy clusters, such as the aforementioned Bullet Cluster.

In order to confirm and fully untangle the evidence for the Abell 520 dark matter core, the researchers have secured time for new data from Chandra plus the Hubble Space Telescope. With the additional observations, the team hopes to resolve the mystery surrounding this system.

:eusa_hand:

Would you like a prediction, they find more problems than they solve, unless true to the standard models modus operandi, some other new physics is invoked!! :jaw-dropp

These problems do not alarm you in your strong belief/faith in the standard model? :confused:

Massive contradiction in everything that has been spouted as "proof" of a dark matter by the "mainstreamers" here! :eusa_shifty: Hope no one gets wise to this eh! :eusa_pray:

So at this stage dark matter is in the same realm as The Mans pixy snot and elf dandruff! :)

I mean come on! Abell 754
galaxy clusters that collided like two high-pressure weather fronts and created hurricane-like conditions, tossing galaxies far from their paths and churning shock waves of 100-million-degree gas through intergalactic space. Data from the observations were released today.
How do shock waves create 100-million degree gas (is that F or C?) Where's there starburst that should be there!

Just how dense is the "hot gas"?

Weather fronts and hurricanes??

Sure it's only a press release, but why no mention of plasma only 100-million degree gas? would it be just as easy to say plasma?
 
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Edd wrote
It's the difference between two galaxies colliding and the intergalactic medium colliding. One is two galaxies colliding, the other is two low density high temperature volumes of gas colliding, with the galaxies within passing through in a largely collisionless manner.

So As we do not fall into the the press release trap of calling plasma "hot gas", do you mean neutral molecular gas or plasma?

Though plasma can be modeled as a "hot gas" it has one very special property that "hot gas" does NOT! Care to have a guess?
 
Edd wrote

So As we do not fall into the the press release trap of calling plasma "hot gas", do you mean neutral molecular gas or plasma?

Though plasma can be modeled as a "hot gas" it has one very special property that "hot gas" does NOT! Care to have a guess?

I have no issue with calling the intracluster medium a plasma.

If you wish to state what the theories you support say about it and what predictions those theories make that standard astrophysics does not, then fantastic. Go ahead.

I'm not in the business of playing silly games with terminology though.
 
Anywho, please allow me a little time to come up with the theory of everything, but it is under way, with math and all!

No need for a theory of all, dude, just a basic calculation of a star in orbit around the centre of the galaxy. Would take only like half an hour maybe to write it down. Start writing Sol88 or can't you do it? Can you only post links and words and can't you do any math? Coz math is difficult and those crazy mainstream plasma(astro)physicist get it wrong all the time in those published papers.
 
plasma or gas it's all the same thing right?

We have gas here on earth (the atmosphere) is that a plasma too?

The a four states of matter the fundamental state plasma, then GAS, then liquid and then solid!

Four states of matter not three!

Or are you all slow learners here!

You mob can't even work out the difference between gas and plasma, Ken hell people no wonder there is so much misunderstanding!
 
Tusemfem, put your knickers back on the right way, it's on it's way.

Not tonite (my time though) the last two nites playing forum tennis have worn me out, plus as Edd said,
I'm not in the business of playing silly games with terminology

Seems to happen a lot round these parts!!
 
plasma or gas it's all the same thing right?

We have gas here on earth (the atmosphere) is that a plasma too?

The a four states of matter the fundamental state plasma, then GAS, then liquid and then solid!

Four states of matter not three!
Depending on context, astrophysicists frequently misname things. In a GR context virtually all matter except the most extreme relativistic plasmas can end up being called 'dust', which clearly it isn't.
Almost all elements end up being called 'metals' even when they're chemically most definitely not metals.
We'll sometimes talk about plasmas as gas, even when we know perfectly well they're plasma.
It doesn't change our understanding of things. It doesn't change our understanding of the intracluster medium if someone refers to it as a 'hot gas' - indeed the very observations we have of it that go into the bullet cluster results depend on there being free electrons that can emit brehmsstrahlung radiation.
 
Tusemfem, put your knickers back on the right way, it's on it's way.

At least I have my nickers on, you on the other hand are caught bare-assed all the time, when asked to show even the simplest of calculations.
 
You mob can't even work out the difference between gas and plasma, Ken hell people no wonder there is so much misunderstanding!

There is a good case to be made that plasmas are properly a subset of gasses, and not an independent state. In particular, I know of no way to define a thermodynamic phase transition between the two states.

So what do you think the differences between plasmas and gasses are?
 
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[...]
Oh and by the way Tim Thompson, Reality check, Tusenfem or Dierendopa this question still remains unanswered? And it has been asked more than once FYI.

Why no starburst formation in the collision of (1E 0657-56) and MACS J0025.4-1222?

Really care to quote the message in which this question was posed?
You're just making this up as you go, now YOU answer my question above, that I have asked at least 3 times before.

Thought that's what your theory would predict, from all the bumping and rubbing and general friction of the the "gas"?

And a a quote from TPOD by Tom Wilson:

IS that true Tim Thompson, Reality check, Tusenfem or Dierendopa?

Surely not?

Please tell me these contradictions are not true!

Why no starburst? Maybe because it is a collision of clusters? I hope you know the difference between galaxies and clusters. So, no, "our theory" would NOT predict starburst in this collision of two clusters.

Mainstream (real) science has NEVER EVER claimed that there is no galactic magnetic field. Once more, one of your delusions.

And with as many galaxies as there are, there are bound to be some that have less dark matter then others. As we don't know what exactly dark matter is, it is rather difficult to find out why at the moment.

But surely YOU can come up with a nice model in which EM forces are the cause. Please show us.
Some additional comments, to add to those of others:

-> "Why no starburst formation in the collision of (1E 0657-56) and MACS J0025.4-1222?" - well, they're collisions between two clusters, not galaxies (as has already been pointed out). Now perhaps there were some galaxy collisions in one or both these cluster collisions? Perhaps we could ask Sol88, or Tom Wilson, to provide us with the relevant observations that put limits on the starburst activity in the galaxies in the clusters?

-> galaxy collisions: the collision of two ellipticals, or two lenticulars (or an elliptical and a lenticular) would not normally be expected to produce a starburst (or not one easily noticed) ... because these galaxies have little gas (though some do, of course); and it's the gas that gives rise to the starbursts

-> ditto wrt a spiral-elliptical/lenticular collision, though the details of the collision are important (some fireworks may be triggered by the collision, even if little in the way of starbursts)

-> rich clusters (of galaxies) tend to have few, if any, spirals in their cores, and it is the cores which have the greatest (space) density of galaxies ... so in collisions between clusters, galaxy-galaxy collisions are more likely between galaxies in the cores than elsewhere

-> I don't know who "Tom Wilson" is, but he clearly has but the loosest understanding of the relevant astronomy (i.e. the observations) and astrophysics (i.e. the models); the TPOD article is rife with errors, misunderstandings, etc (not to mention some just plain nonsense), beyond the SMBH comment and the magnetic field ones (already covered by others). I've not read the supposed "contradictions", but I expect they are little different from the multitude of others Z and S88 have posted, by the hundreds, in this thread (i.e. some mixture of outright falsehoods, gross ignorance, misunderstanding, quotes taken out of context, and just plain nonsense).
 
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I haven't seen a response to sol88 question: "Is there charge seperation in space."

That is a fundamental question. But the answer is clear enough NASA has confirmed 'charge seperation in space'.

I'm always confounded when I read these forums, there are many of them, by good faith folks who deny that electromagnetism, a fundamental force, 39 times stronger than gravity that is more dynamic, having two qualities, attraction and repulsion wouldn't have a major role in space dynamics at all structural levels.

The scientific evidence is there for all to see, first confirmed by in situ observation & measurement in near-space by NASA, starting in 1973 with confirmation of the electromagnetic properties of the Birkeland currents between the Sun and the Earth, additional in situ observations & measurements have only extended Sciences knowledge and understanding of the presence of electromagnetic forces in near-space.

Subsequent, in situ observation & measurement by NASA has confirmed electromagnetic forces are present in the interplanetary medium and have been detected around both Jupiter and Saturn.

Infact, wherever Man has been able to send in situ observation & measurement apparatus, the presence of electromagnetic phenomenon has been confirmed.

Can the deniers point to one specific incident where electromagnetism hasn't been found by in situ observation & measurement when Man was able to get in situ observation & measurement apparatus into position?

In any normal scientfic proceeding that consistent detection of a fundamental force, electromagnetism, would be cause to conclude it is likely that beyond where Science can send in situ observation & measurement apparatus (satellites and probes), there also is electromagnetism at work.

Yet, it seems that "modern" astrophysicists are dragged kicking and screaming every step of the way.

Why is that?

And it started from the beginning, with Birkeland's electromagnetic hypothesis for the Northern Lights. From 1903, when Birkeland first postulated his ideas until 1973 when satellites confrmed Birkeland's hypothesis was matched to reality, "modern" astrophysicists were in denial.

Could it just be possible, that preconceived ideas held by "modern" astrophysicists have an impact on their approach to electromagnetism.
 
I haven't seen a response to sol88 question: "Is there charge seperation in space."

That is a fundamental question. But the answer is clear enough NASA has confirmed 'charge seperation in space'.

I'm always confounded when I read these forums, there are many of them, by good faith folks who deny that electromagnetism, a fundamental force, 39 times stronger than gravity that is more dynamic, having two qualities, attraction and repulsion wouldn't have a major role in space dynamics at all structural levels.

The scientific evidence is there for all to see, first confirmed by in situ observation & measurement in near-space by NASA, starting in 1973 with confirmation of the electromagnetic properties of the Birkeland currents between the Sun and the Earth, additional in situ observations & measurements have only extended Sciences knowledge and understanding of the presence of electromagnetic forces in near-space.

Subsequent, in situ observation & measurement by NASA has confirmed electromagnetic forces are present in the interplanetary medium and have been detected around both Jupiter and Saturn.

Infact, wherever Man has been able to send in situ observation & measurement apparatus, the presence of electromagnetic phenomenon has been confirmed.

Can the deniers point to one specific incident where electromagnetism hasn't been found by in situ observation & measurement when Man was able to get in situ observation & measurement apparatus into position?

In any normal scientfic proceeding that consistent detection of a fundamental force, electromagnetism, would be cause to conclude it is likely that beyond where Science can send in situ observation & measurement apparatus (satellites and probes), there also is electromagnetism at work.

Yet, it seems that "modern" astrophysicists are dragged kicking and screaming every step of the way.

Why is that?

And it started from the beginning, with Birkeland's electromagnetic hypothesis for the Northern Lights. From 1903, when Birkeland first postulated his ideas until 1973 when satellites confrmed Birkeland's hypothesis was matched to reality, "modern" astrophysicists were in denial.

Could it just be possible, that preconceived ideas held by "modern" astrophysicists have an impact on their approach to electromagnetism.
Welcome (again) Anaconda! :)

Do you mind if I ask you where you got the information that you present in your post from?

You see, as I read it, it seems to be but a minor re-write of the nonsense that is to be found by the bucket-full on EU websites and in EU material; namely, at its core, that there is some sort of blindness (or worse) afflicting astronomers and astrophysicists which prevents them from seeing that EM forces play the dominant role in the structure and evolution of objects at all scales in the observable universe. Is that so; did you do little more than just rephrase stuff you read in those sources?

In any case, let me ask you this: what would it take to convince you that the picture you have drawn - in the post of yours that I'm quoting - is wrong in just about every aspect?

If you could take a moment to think through the answer to that question, then I think the regulars here will be able to help you work out what's really going on, for yourself, by application of your own critical thinking skills.
 
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Yes.

Sorry my mistake the Sun is 98.6% of the Solar System's mass.

Were there others?

Just these.

Care to elaborate by presenting what you would project to be the magnitudes of the fields involved as well as their sorces?


Excluded how, by having entire industries and fields devoted to the study and use of “EM forces on the macroscopic scale”?


Created? It would seem that how our solar system developed would be the critical aspect of the “prior electrical system” and was that not Alfvén’s inference in that quote, not to mention your own by stipulating “did not condense out of a primal molecular cloud under gravity”. It would seem that how such a “prior electrical system” might result in the development of our solar system, what happened to that “prior electrical system” and not only why gravity dominates that system now why it might have been an insufficient explanation of that development, would be required before looking for evidence of some specific theory or model.


Well poof of what? Looking at pictures to find “proof” of what you not only have made up your mind about as the cause but also to reinforce the bias you referred to as “reasoning” is just proof of prejudice.


If gravity is sufficient to drive the system now, why was it insufficient before?


You do understand that plasma is matter, don’t you,?

Perhaps maybe charge?
 
I'm always confounded when I read these forums, there are many of them, by good faith folks who deny that electromagnetism, a fundamental force, 39 times stronger than gravity that is more dynamic, having two qualities, attraction and repulsion wouldn't have a major role in space dynamics at all structural levels.

Well, first off, you've got the talking point wrong: electromagnetism is frequently referred to as being 39 orders of magnitude stronger than gravity, not 39 times stronger. Rather major difference, and one which on its surface would seem to bolster your case, so it's a strange mistake for you to be making. But the thing is, comparisons between fundamental forces are only meaningful in relation to a particular interaction. For example, different objects have different charge-to-mass ratios, so the strength of gravitational to electric forces is going to be different as well. So where does that 39 orders of magnitude factor comes from? It comes from the comparison of the gravitational attraction of a single proton to a single electron compared to the electrical attraction of a single proton to a single electron.

But of course, when you want to talk about anything large, you're not talking about single electrons and single protons. Even ignoring neutrons (which feel gravity just as strongly as protons but don't feel electric fields at all), most of the universe is made up of fairly balanced amounts of protons and electrons. In fact, it's precisely because electricity is so strong that most of the universe is very close to charge neutral. So for example, let's consider the interaction between the earth and the moon. Now, the protons on earth will repel the protons on the moon, much more strongly than gravity. But they'll also attract the electrons on the moon much more strongly than gravity. So we need to consider the net electric force on the moon. And because the moon is very close to charge neutral, that net electric force on the moon turns out to be FAR weaker than gravity.

So to claim that electromagnetic forces are stronger than gravity is highly misleading. Sometimes they are, often they are not. And precisely because electric forces have both attractive and repulsive contributions, and precisely because more complex behavior like shielding is possible, and precisely because electron-proton electrostatic interactions are so strong, electric forces tend to cancel each other out. And the larger length scale you look at, the closer to total cancellation you tend to get. But gravity? It's always attractive, and it can never be shielded. So the larger length scales you look at, the more important it becomes.

The scientific evidence is there for all to see, first confirmed by in situ observation & measurement in near-space by NASA, starting in 1973 with confirmation of the electromagnetic properties of the Birkeland currents between the Sun and the Earth

Crunch the numbers sometime, see if the forces involved come anywhere close to the strength of gravitational attraction between the sun and the earth. You will find that gravity dominates the interaction, and electricity is a very minor perturbation. And interesting one, to be sure, and one responsible for some neat effects like the aurora, but still far less important than gravity. So small, in fact, that you don't even need to consider them if you want to calculate the earth's orbit.

In any normal scientfic proceeding that consistent detection of a fundamental force, electromagnetism, would be cause to conclude it is likely that beyond where Science can send in situ observation & measurement apparatus (satellites and probes), there also is electromagnetism at work.

Nobody is denying that electromagnetic forces are present throughout the universe. But large-scale structures are driven by gravity, not electromagnetism, because at large scales, gravity is far stronger. Every measurement you reference is in line with this basic fact.

Yet, it seems that "modern" astrophysicists are dragged kicking and screaming every step of the way.

Why is that?

You imagine something that simply isn't the case. That's why.

Could it just be possible, that preconceived ideas held by "modern" astrophysicists have an impact on their approach to electromagnetism.

Could it just be possible that you don't actually know what you're talking about?
 
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