Chávez: America Bad, Russia Good.

[dudalb]

Yeah, Russia is a beacon of freedom to the rest of the world.....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...2009040101665.html?hpid=moreheadlines]/quote]

 

[dudalb]

Cool. Hey, if some nation ever impliments Communism to work as Marx and Engels invisioned it then that will be fine with me. I don't see any ideology or economic system as sacrosanct.

Impossible, because Marx and Engels idea is basically unworkable. People who have ability will get tired of pulling all the dead weight.

 

[lupus_in_fabula]

Impossible, because Marx and Engels idea is basically unworkable. People who have ability will get tired of pulling all the dead weight.

Not 'unworkable', if their 'abilities' would not be considered as 'more'.

 

[egslim]

We were fighting a war to prevent the spread of communism.

I think that poorly describes the Cold War.

It's more accurate to say the Cold War was a repeat of the Great Game of Anglo-Russian rivalry. The Great Game included arms races, relatively small wars and "bushfire" conflicts. Very much like the Cold War did.
Differences are the Cold War was more intense, more global, and motivated in part by ideology. Though plain old nationalism continued to play a part too.

This distinction is important as context. Behaviour during the Cold War can't be excused by saying "we were fighting a war", because the US was basically at peace. Even Vietnam and Korea were strictly localized conflicts, never threatening the continental US directly.

Perhaps our actions were ill advised and we abused our power and made mistakes and commited crimes. I'll concede to those, but these are NOT analogs of Communist oppression, genocide and imprisonment of political prisoners.

Communist governments were their own people's worst enemies. While Americans were (and are) fairly safe from oppression by their own government, communist governments regularly did terrible things to their own people.

But where foreigners were concerned, the distinction blurred. The US was as willing to work with, support, or even bring to power oppresive regimes as the USSR was. Better a friendly dictator than a democratic government with communist leanings - Iran was an example of that.

So foreigners (especially non-Europeans) have a very different perspective on the US government than Americans.

We didn't strip the freedom of our own people nor did we strip the freedom of the South Vietnamese or South Koreans.

No, the South Vietnamese and South Korean governments did that respectively. Both were initially corrupt, oppressive dictatorships. It took decades for South Korea to become a democracy after the war.

 

[malcolmxwarrior]

They could ask Georgians if Putin is a responsible world leader.

What's that supposed to mean?

Georgia invading south ossetia and killing 200 peacekeepers and russia repelling them back georgia?

Sakasshvili, an american educated puppet over there? Stalin is from georgia. That august surprise that was supposed to get Mccain in the white house? Or it was supposed to be a takeoff point for the USrael attack on Iran, but oddly enough thanks to Russia destroying the planes and the airstrips etc. It never happened. It also didn't happen because bush said to wait. So they decided to burn a bunch of babies flesh with white phosphorous.

 

[malcolmxwarrior]

"...and you are lynching negros"

So following the modus operandi of you and JihadJane, anything that Russia does wrong is above criticism so long as the US is perceived as doing something wrong as well.

No. My point is that the US can't say anything without looking like a hypocrite. They need to be quiet. When Russia repels the georgia invasion, they can't say anything. They need to bite their lip or the irony will kill them!

Like mccain said something long the lines of countries don't invade other countries!

Silly mccain.

 

[JihadJane]

Where have I glorified Russia?

Specifically by trying your hardest to make America out to be the bad guy and calling Putin's dictatorship he has going on "responsible world leadership".

Ha ha! I could try a lot harder than that!

I haven't expressed any opinion on the way Putin wields his power in Russia. I was commenting on his behavior on the world stage, particularly at Davos.

I have said that Putin "took up the mantle of leadership and control that the UK and US have lost with their disastrous economic policies" and that "Russia is taking up the baton of responsible world leadership now that the US financial criminal delinquency has been so starkly exposed."

Which what I said you said above. You're glorfying Russia and playing at historical revisionist with events that are still happening. If the United States has such a horrible and irresponsible economy why then exactly is it outperforming everyone else in the world so greatly, especially Russia? Before the economic downturn Russia had a GDP of $733 billion and the US in 2008 had a GDP of nearly $14 trillion. If the US economy is as shattered and hopeless as you seem to wish it were why are we still doing so well?

Wake up. The US economy is going down the plug hole and dragging the rest of the world, including Russia, down with it. That is what has given Putin the opportunity to assume the mantle of responsible world leadership.

Putin's speech appears to represent an honest, responsible and realistic assessment of and approach to the world's economic crisis. Perhaps you think otherwise.

I do think otherwise, it's redundant to say that I think otherwise because I've made it so damned clear by now.

What do you disagree with about his assessment in the speech?

To my mind, I am simply describing historical events.

No, you're describing events that are still happening and playing revisionist early on.

The meltdown of the core of the US financial system has already happened.

Your belief that I am glorifying Russia and that this therefore means I think "Putin is the salvation of the world" is your interpretation, not what I think.

Then please explain how he has taken the mantle of "responsible world leader" from the United States.

By addressing the economic crisis at Davos in a responsible way. He hasn't actually taken the mantle from the US. It was waiting to be picked up. The US lost it because of its disastrous economic failure (not to mention foreign policy failures).

Originally Posted by JihadJane
US America is likely facing a situation worse than the Great Depression. It is indeed "dire".

? Based on what theory?

It's based on multiple indicators.

Perhaps you should change your avatar and user name to chiclen little.

Jane, the sky is not falling. Oh, and BTW, there's no grand conspiracy either. Take it to the CT forum.

Lazy name-calling.

So following the modus operandi of you and JihadJane, anything that Russia does wrong is above criticism so long as the US is perceived as doing something wrong as well.

Please stick to facts. Nothing I have said could be honestly interpreted as saying that "anything that Russia does wrong is above criticism so long as the US is perceived as doing something wrong as well."

 

[malcolmxwarrior]

Wake up. The US economy is going down the plug hole and dragging the rest of the world, including Russia, down with it.

I don't think so girl.

I think russia will be fine when the dust settles. China will be poorer because they have useless t-bills. They were the biggest victims of the American Ponzi Scheme.

The rest of world will be worse off but The United States is the country that will look like an economic wasteland. They're gonna look like the Weimar republic when the crisis is over. The Crisis has just begun.

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Ha ha! I could try a lot harder than that!

I haven't expressed any opinion on the way Putin wields his power in Russia. I was commenting on his behavior on the world stage, particularly at Davos.

If you aren't trying your hardest then you certainly need to! Many of us here are spectacularly unimpressed with you or Putin.

For that matter I'm specifically criticizing Russia for their lack of capital or political allies, and these facts prevents them from being a "world leader". The mass of corruption and the dictatorship that is Russia keeps it from being "responsible". Putin can go up on his pulpit and make the most brilliant speeches ever made but in the end he's still a dictator and not someone I or any other freedom loving individual on this planet would ever follow.

Wake up. The US economy is going down the plug hole and dragging the rest of the world, including Russia, down with it. That is what has given Putin the opportunity to assume the mantle of responsible world leadership.

That's what happens when you have outdated regulations and a quarter of the world's GDP and purchasing power. Like I said, Russia has a GDP less than the amount of money we spent on our own economic bailout. How this allows them to assume the role you imagine the US is slipping from is beyond me.

What do you disagree with about his assessment in the speech?

His speech isn't the issue it's why you think he has taken the mantle as responsible world leader. A question you still refuse to answer. You merely linked me to his speech and started making vauge claims about how this proves Russia is the new world leader.

The meltdown of the core of the US financial system has already happened.

It's hardly a meltdown; a meltdown was the great depression. Compared to what the US actually has this is more like a very bad boo-boo. In anycase, what I was addressing is your willingness to play the red herring for Russia and deflect any criticism of Russia, as if it hasn't happened, by pointing to problems in the US.

By addressing the economic crisis at Davos in a responsible way. He hasn't actually taken the mantle from the US. It was waiting to be picked up. The US lost it because of its disastrous economic failure (not to mention foreign policy failures).

This is still another vague claim without any meat on its bones. You still won't address what he has said which indicated to you as to why he is now the new world leader. As I said, he may have made a good speech but he is still a dictator and his country still has only a little more than 5% of the total GDP the United States has. A responsible world leader, this does not make.

Please stick to facts. Nothing I have said could be honestly interpreted as saying that "anything that Russia does wrong is above criticism so long as the US is perceived as doing something wrong as well."

Yes it can, by your constant unwillingness to accept that Russia has done wrong without pointing out what the US has done wrong and refusing to acknowledge or discuss negative points raised about Russia.

ETA:

No. My point is that the US can't say anything without looking like a hypocrite. They need to be quiet. When Russia repels the georgia invasion, they can't say anything. They need to bite their lip or the irony will kill them!

Like mccain said something long the lines of countries don't invade other countries!

Silly mccain.

I wasn't aware that McCain spoke for the entire United States. Apparently he doesn't as he lost that election, or is the revisionism of you and JihadJane gone that far into la-la land?

And regardless of anyway you and JihadJane try to spin this you're both using the two-wrongs make a right fallacy. No one in this thread has thus far been able to criticize Russia without one of you (or DictatorCheney) jumping out from the deepest, darkest corner of the internet and pointing to real or imagined US atrocities as if none of us are aware of them.

I don't think so girl.

I think russia will be fine when the dust settles. China will be poorer because they have useless t-bills. They were the biggest victims of the American Ponzi Scheme.

The rest of world will be worse off but The United States is the country that will look like an economic wasteland. They're gonna look like the Weimar republic when the crisis is over. The Crisis has just begun.

So says the great economist malcomxwarrior.

Again, neither you nor JihadJane clearly have any idea just how massive the US economy is.

 

[dudalb]

Jihad Jane believes that all of modern industrial society is going to collapse, and she seems to be a LUddite who advocates a return to some kind of pre industrial paradise where everybody grows their own food. In other words, the Return Of the Middle Ages.
She is pretty far down the woo path.

 

[JihadJane]

I don't think so girl.

I think russia will be fine when the dust settles. China will be poorer because they have useless t-bills. They were the biggest victims of the American Ponzi Scheme.

The rest of world will be worse off but The United States is the country that will look like an economic wasteland. They're gonna look like the Weimar republic when the crisis is over. The Crisis has just begun.

Thanks boy/girl.

Russians have recent experience of economic collapse and may be better positioned geo-politically. The US/UK dream of controlling of Asian energy resources and transportation routes may never be realized. Russia's substantial, remaining energy resources give it a long-term advantage.

Like the rest of the world, however, Russia has been severely impacted by the mayhem unleashed by creative US financiers.

e.g.:

'Growing Anger In Russia As Recession Deepens'

http://preview.tinyurl.com/cp4exa

(news.sky.com) <----MSM Warning!

I agree that the future of the US economy doesn't look rosy. The same goes for many countries. In the long run, however, a return to a more agrarian society, which some predict will be the result of the convergence of crises that we are entering, would be to the US people's long-term advantage.

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Jihad Jane believes that all of modern industrial society is going to collapse, and she seems to be a LUddite who advocates a return to some kind of pre industrial paradise where everybody grows their own food. In other words, the Return Of the Middle Ages.
She is pretty far down the woo path.

And yet she's sitting here using her computer to tell us all that...huh...

 

[dudalb]

And yet she's sitting here using her computer to tell us all that...huh...

Kilpatrick Sale, one of the founders of the neo luddite movement, who used to begin his lectures by smashing a computer with a hammer, uses the Internet to organize his political movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkpatrick_Sale

So no surprise....

 

[JihadJane]

Jihad Jane believes that all of modern industrial society is going to collapse, and she seems to be a LUddite who advocates a return to some kind of pre industrial paradise where everybody grows their own food. In other words, the Return Of the Middle Ages.
She is pretty far down the woo path.

dudalb has a vivid imagination.

 

[Toke]

dudalb has a vivid imagination.

He is extrapolating from your posting history and giving it a slight twist from a political rightwingers viewpoint.

That does not stop him from being right now and then.

 

[dudalb]

I object to being labeled a right winger since on some issues I am pretty liberal.

 

[DC]

I object to being labeled a right winger since on some issues I am pretty liberal.

ppffff you are a champion in labeling people

 

[Toke]

I object to being labeled a right winger since on some issues I am pretty liberal.

I said "right winger viewpoint" so technicaly i did not call you a rightwinger.

I do consider you a political rightwinger.
Don´t take it so bad, comming from a socialist like me it could mean almost anything.

Remember labeling is not alway that accurate and have to cut away some dimensions.
Like there are many other subjects where I agree with you.

Or your own labeling of others.

 

[funk de fino]

What's that supposed to mean?

Georgia invading south ossetia and killing 200 peacekeepers and russia repelling them back georgia?

Sakasshvili, an american educated puppet over there? Stalin is from georgia. That august surprise that was supposed to get Mccain in the white house? Or it was supposed to be a takeoff point for the USrael attack on Iran, but oddly enough thanks to Russia destroying the planes and the airstrips etc. It never happened. It also didn't happen because bush said to wait. So they decided to burn a bunch of babies flesh with white phosphorous.

frothing at the mouth is never a good look. Care to answer the point?

Anyone here been to Russia? More specifically in Siberia? I have, its illuminating to say the least.

 

[JihadJane]

If you aren't trying your hardest then you certainly need to! Many of us here are spectacularly unimpressed with you or Putin.

I'll let Putin know. How many of you are there?

For that matter I'm specifically criticizing Russia for their lack of capital or political allies, and these facts prevents them from being a "world leader". The mass of corruption and the dictatorship that is Russia keeps it from being "responsible". Putin can go up on his pulpit and make the most brilliant speeches ever made but in the end he's still a dictator and not someone I or any other freedom loving individual on this planet would ever follow.

Whatever you think about Putin's or Russia's desirability, power comes from owning natural resources and having financial credibility. Morality and political power travel in different compartments. It has simply fallen on Putin to say sensible things about the world economic crisis. It's not a matter of Russia or Putin being right or wrong.

That's what happens when you have outdated regulations and a quarter of the world's GDP and purchasing power. Like I said, Russia has a GDP less than the amount of money we spent on our own economic bailout. How this allows them to assume the role you imagine the US is slipping from is beyond me.

What actually happened was that some old regulations, that were there for a good reason, were got rid of.

The US didn't have the amount of money it has spent on its bailout.

His speech isn't the issue it's why you think he has taken the mantle as responsible world leader. A question you still refuse to answer. You merely linked me to his speech and started making vauge claims about how this proves Russia is the new world leader.

In his speech Putin is taking up the mantle of responsible world leadership. If you haven't read the speech there is no point in continuing this conversation.

It's hardly a meltdown; a meltdown was the great depression. Compared to what the US actually has this is more like a very bad boo-boo.

It very much is a meltdown!

A meltdown can lead to depression. It's not the depression itself.

In anycase, what I was addressing is your willingness to play the red herring for Russia and deflect any criticism of Russia, as if it hasn't happened, by pointing to problems in the US.

Please quote exactly where I have "deflected criticism of Russia, as if it hasn't happened, by pointing to problems in the US."

Quote exactly where I have shown "willingness to play the red herring for Russia"

You have misunderstood my posts if you think I am defending Russia's political system past and present.

Originally Posted by JihadJane

By addressing the economic crisis at Davos in a responsible way. He hasn't actually taken the mantle from the US. It was waiting to be picked up. The US lost it because of its disastrous economic failure (not to mention foreign policy failures).

This is still another vague claim without any meat on its bones. You still won't address what he has said which indicated to you as to why he is now the new world leader. As I said, he may have made a good speech but he is still a dictator and his country still has only a little more than 5% of the total GDP the United States has. A responsible world leader, this does not make.

If you want to discuss the implications of Putin's speech without reading it, don't discuss it with me.

Originally Posted by JihadJane

Please stick to facts. Nothing I have said could be honestly interpreted as saying that "anything that Russia does wrong is above criticism so long as the US is perceived as doing something wrong as well.

Yes it can, by your constant unwillingness to accept that Russia has done wrong without pointing out what the US has done wrong and refusing to acknowledge or discuss negative points raised about Russia.

Please quote exactly where I have shown an "unwillingness to accept that Russia has done wrong ... ."

Where have I said anything about whether or not Russia has done wrong?

What Putin does with his power domestically is irrelevant to the power that has fallen into his lap on the world stage.




[NOTE: following quotes by Kthulhut Fhtagn to malcolmxwarrior]

I wasn't aware that McCain spoke for the entire United States. Apparently he doesn't as he lost that election, or is the revisionism of you and JihadJane gone that far into la-la land?

And regardless of anyway you and JihadJane try to spin this you're both using the two-wrongs make a right fallacy.

Where have I said anything about Russia being right? Did you hear it in La-la land?

No one in this thread has thus far been able to criticize Russia without one of you (or DictatorCheney) jumping out from the deepest, darkest corner of the internet and pointing to real or imagined US atrocities as if none of us are aware of them.

Please demonstrate your (singular/plural) awareness.

Is your corner of the internet shallow but well-lit?

Again, neither you nor JihadJane clearly have any idea just how massive the US economy is.

You, apparently, have no idea of the size of the catastrophe that has befallen the US economy.

Size matters but giants fall.

'When Giants Fall: An Economic Roadmap for the End of the American Era'

Michael J. Panzner

(Twenty-five year veteran of the global stock, bond, and currency markets and a faculty member at the New York Institute of Finance)

http://www.amazon.com/When-Giants-Fall-Economic-American/dp/047031043X