Chávez: America Bad, Russia Good.

[RandFan]

Chávez says yes to Russian base

Putin's Navy, Chávez's Ambition, and the Caribbean Adventure

Putin, Chavez Meet for Talks

Never mind the former empire's human rights abuses and murder during the cold war. Never mind that the former empire annexed half of Europe and helped separate families at the point of a gun. Never mind that the former empire directly murdered or starved to death tens of millions and imprisoned tens of millions more.

Ok, so the Soviet Union is no more and perhaps for that reason we can give Russia a pass that others are not willing to give the United States. What of Chechnya and the abuse of power and human rights of Chechnyan citizens? Also, while Russia retains some socialism it is by no means a socialist utopia nor is it moving in the direction of pure socialism. But Chávez calls on Obama to move to socialism while keeping mum about Russia. (claim withdrawn see below)

So, political expediency? Shades of Nixon and Sun Tzu (the enemy of my enemy...)?

If so I guess that's fine so long as his sycophants understand that the ideology of Chávez is by no means pure. His hypocrisy in this regard is naked and undeniable. Painting America out to be the greatest threat to humanity while getting all misty eyed with Russia and ignoring regimes like North Korea and China that threatens war over Taiwan, nations like Iran, Turkey and other Muslim nations that have almost no human rights for citizens demonstrates the lie that Chávez is simply interested in human rights and the advancement of socialism for the good of humanity.

And no, none of this excuses American abuses and crimes. What America has done wrong it deserves condemnation for. But to be sure it has done much right. Including not annexing Japan or East Germany or any part of Europe. It includes moving much of Europe to liberal democracy that has led to favorable conditions including healthy mixes of capitalism and socialism and most importantly, freedom.

Too bad South America remains our biggest misadventure.

 

[INRM]

RandFan,

Very good points.

 

[quixotecoyote]

But Chávez calls on Obama to move to socialism while keeping mum about Russia.

According to your link he called on Russia to move (back) to Leninism. Not the direction I'd prefer them to go.

So, political expediency? Shades of Nixon and Sun Tzu (the enemy of my enemy...)?

That's my take. I think it works nicely for him since he gets to look like an international big shot standing up to a hated enemy which probably plays well domestically. He also may have an honest worry about US action, and having his country tied into the Russian military would make the US think twice about what it wants to do.

 

[Chupacabras]

Chavez says a lot of strange things.

I don't know if I should worry or what. He seems to me like an unruly child craving for media attention; lots of rants but no clear political or social advancement goals other than perpetuating himself as president. At least Muammar al-Gaddafi has a team of meanie girls for personal security.

 

[RandFan]

Chavez says a lot of strange things.

I don't know if I should worry or what. He seems to me like an unruly child craving for media attention; lots of rants but no clear political or social advancement goals other than perpetuating himself as president. At least Muammar al-Gaddafi has a team of meanie girls for personal security.

I think he has done some good. But I have to say that I'm disappointed in that there was at first so much promise. His closest advisers have left him in what I understand because the presidency has become largely about him.

"We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men that as soon as they get a little authority as they suppose they immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion over there brethren. --Joseph Smith.

And he should know since he himself became a petty tyrant.

 

[RandFan]

According to your link he called on Russia to move (back) to Leninism. Not the direction I'd prefer them to go.

Your right. I need to get my eyes checked. Or pay closer attention to what I'm reading. Hmmm....

Thanks.

That's my take. I think it works nicely for him since he gets to look like an international big shot standing up to a hated enemy which probably plays well domestically. He also may have an honest worry about US action, and having his country tied into the Russian military would make the US think twice about what it wants to do.

Politically and militarily it's a shrewed move and I can't fault him for it given America's hegemony in the region.

I really wish Venezuela and other Latin American nations could become more like the Scandinavian and other progressive European nations. I really do wish the best for them as it is in every body's best interest.

 

[quarky]

The U.S. can be seen in a very different light, depending on where you're sitting.

We can be the scary people that dropped the big bomb; killed the Indians and the bison; enslaved dark people; did cynical things in South and Central America, and so on.
And now we have an added look of super-fat cats and mostly broke people, with a fragmented culture that gets increasingly pointless.

Having the biggest army can make a country look frightening.

 

[dudalb]

really wish Venezuela and other Latin American nations could become more like the Scandinavian and other progressive European nations. I really do wish the best for them as it is in every body's best interest.

But the way they are going they are going to get the worst. Looks as though the people of Venzuela are going to have learn the lesson that the Russian people had to learn.
This does not scare me very much; The Russian Navy ain't much to brag about, and I have a feeling it will amount to nothing more then a few subs and frigates. What I am scared of is Chavez eventually giving sanctuary of a base of operation to Terrorist groups. And I would not put that beyond him.
This also shows that Chavez does not give a damn who is in the White House. America is the enemy in his eyes. THis guarantees that Obama will not make any openings toward Chavez.

 

[RandFan]

The U.S. can be seen in a very different light, depending on where you're sitting.

We can be the scary people that dropped the big bomb; killed the Indians and the bison; enslaved dark people; did cynical things in South and Central America, and so on.
And now we have an added look of super-fat cats and mostly broke people, with a fragmented culture that gets increasingly pointless.

Having the biggest army can make a country look frightening.

Agreed.

And let's not forget our contribution to world cuisine, Cheez Whiz.

In all seriousness though you have a very valid point.

 

[Toke]

It is not unreasonable for Chavez to try get some protection.
South and central america have reason not to trust the US too much, particulary if they as some flavor of social democrat or socialist.

 

[RandFan]

It is not unreasonable for Chavez to try get some protection.
South and central america have reason not to trust the US too much, particulary if they as some flavor of social democrat or socialist.

Yeah, I think most people who are reasonable not jingoistic and understand the history of America's involvement in the region would agree.

But the point is about the hypocrisy of Chávez's rhetoric of demonizing America. Not to say America hasn't also been hypocritical on that front. They have. I think America's relationship with Saudi Arabia, Iraq (after fall of the Shah) and China have stood in stark contrast to our demonizing of the former Soviet Union.

 

[Toke]

Yeah, I think most people who are reasonable not jingoistic and understand the history of America's involvement in the region would agree.

But the point is about the hypocrisy of Chávez's rhetoric of demonizing America. Not to say America hasn't also been hypocritical on that front. They have. I think America's relationship with Saudi Arabia, Iraq (after fall of the Shah) and China have stood in stark contrast to our demonizing of the former Soviet Union.

I have no problem calling a politician a hypocrite, not even Chavez*.

He does like any other politician have a reason for being so.
The problem is that if you speak the thruth about every country in the world you would soon be friendless.


*Well I would prefer him as a flawless socialist statesman, too bad reality gets in the way.

 

[WildCat]

Having the biggest army can make a country look frightening.

What does China have to do with this?

 

[WildCat]

It is not unreasonable for Chavez to try get some protection.
South and central america have reason not to trust the US too much, particulary if they as some flavor of social democrat or socialist.

What did the US do in the past that Venezuela isn't doing now?

 

[Darth Rotor]

What did the US do in the past that Venezuela isn't doing now?

Learn how to develop oil reserves without foreign technical expertise?

I am actually not quite sure what you are asking here ...

 

[Toke]

What did the US do in the past that Venezuela isn't doing now?

Assorted coups, invasions, messing with elections?

 

[RandFan]

Assorted coups, invasions, messing with elections?

While I think it appropriate to criticize America for a number of things I do think it appropriate to add some context. Given the tens of millions murdered, imprisoned and oppressed by communist regimes America had legitimate concerns about Communism in the Southern Hemisphere. Often times we did not have great choices. Sitting back and hoping that Soviet influenced communism didn't take hold close to our borders wasn't really seen as an option. Unfortunately Leninism was an attractive means of liberation for many who didn't know about or thought they were immune to the tyranny and oppression that so called communism brought with it.

So we acted and often made poor decisions or what we believed was the best choice between two evils. Hindsight being 20/20.

 

[quixotecoyote]

While I think it appropriate to criticize America for a number of things I do think it appropriate to add some context. Given the tens of millions murdered, imprisoned and oppressed by communist regimes America had legitimate concerns about Communism in the Southern Hemisphere. Often times we did not have great choices. Sitting back and hoping that Soviet influenced communism didn't take hold close to our borders wasn't really seen as an option. Unfortunately Leninism was an attractive means of liberation for many who didn't know about or thought they were immune to the tyranny and oppression that so called communism brought with it.

So we acted and often made poor decisions or what we believed was the best choice between two evils. Hindsight being 20/20.

I agree with you as far as you go, but there were other instances that were less defensible.

I think that being involved in a global struggle against forces bent on world domination can, if not excuse, provide a rational for many of the worse US actions.

On the other hand, you had stuff like the United Fruit Company, which while not the actual government of the US, did enough shady stuff to fuel an understandable anti-US sentiment.

 

[funk de fino]

Dictator Cheney is really going to be mad at you guys.

 

[quixotecoyote]

Dictator Cheney is really going to be mad at you guys.

Hey, it's not like we stole the Israel/Palestine topic from parky and TFT!