Molten Steel

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The point here is, the weight would NOT be applied to the floor,
Wrong


it would be applied to the exterior columns as the falling floor came in contact with them.
Wrong, it would be both actually. Once the columns give the floors below were involved regardless.

The rest of you analogy ignores the point.
The NIST hypothesis requires the weight of the falling top section being applied to the floor.
That is NOT what happened.

Wrong again... see above. And you ignored this

Once the collapse initiates and falls one story it is traveling at 9 meters per second. If we crush the collapsing story into rubble half a meter thick and stop the collapse at that point, what kind of dynamic load should we expect?

The velocity decreases from 9 m/s to 0 m/s in half a meter, or about 1/18 of a second. As the mass decelerates the velocity decreases and the average velocity is half the initial. The crush time is 1/9 of a second, and we get an acceleration of -9 m/s/s divided by 1/9 of a second = -81 m/s/s

The dynamic load is 8 times that of the load at rest.

Let me ask, are you able to carry eight times your own weight?

For the north tower alone the dynamic load wasn't that of 10 stories, it was more like 80 stories, Like adding almost the entire height of the building to the impact region and subsequent floors underneath. South tower had almost 30 stories... that's something more like adding an extra 240 floors worth of dynamic load rather than the static 30. At those parts of the tower why I really don't expect them to have been designed for such ridiculously high loads. When buildings are constructed they're done so as efficiently as possible, over designing wastes money, and frankly building materials. And in reality likelihoods are that the dynamic loads were much higher, since the impact regions both involved several floors at once. Connections that hold the structure together aren't gonna stop it.


In your never ending quest to deny the statements of the witnesses, you ask questions that cannot be answered.
That might be an indication to change you "hypothesis"

I understand the context perfectly. He was comparing girders in the overpass, which had failed but were not melted [turned into liquid] with the girders he had seen at the WTC which had turned to liquid.
If we applied his analogy literally with a direct reference to the actual art piece, I see nothing of the sort indicating anything what you're inserting into his statement. If you're so confused then try asking him for once. His later conclusions certainly cleared any confusion that might have come from it.


I read and quoted the article. He did NOT analyze the collapse, only airplane impacts.

Just the air plane impacts? Let's review the article:
Astaneh's presentation included computerized animations of planes hitting the towers. Using $270,000 software, each sequence showed a plane hitting first a realistic version of a tower and then the plane hitting a reinforced building.

With thicker beams, the animation showed the planes disintegrating almost immediately after hitting the tower. In contrast, the airliners punched through the unreinforced exterior with little resistance.

"Like a knife cutting through soft butter," Astaneh said. "Airplanes are not very strong, but this building was even weaker than an airplane."

New York building codes would have prevented the towers' flimsy design, he said, but federal laws allowed engineers to ignore those codes. The same exception has been granted to developers of New York's Freedom Tower, which will replace the World Trade Center.

Are you sure that his study was only about the plane impacts? Looks to me like there was some extensive study on how the construction was done and how it catalyzed the conditions for collapse.
 
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Dr. Evil Voice: "Liquid-hot Mag-ma"
Magma is generally cooler than the melting point of steel, but does fit in well with the truther claims of pyroclastic flows. I'll contact Kitten (vulcanologist, not NWO Kitty), who is in South Africa now, to ask her opinion about this important matter.
 
He says he doesn't know and that it's debatable. What he can't get his head round is, if there was a heat source capable of keeping the steel liquid then that same heat source would melt steel. Therefore there is no reason to suspect thermite, (because the heat source in the pile is capable of doing the job all on it's own.)

He only claims thermite, because he heard it from someone else. He didn't reach that conclusion by himself, and he certainly didn't reach it by examining evidence. I'd love to know what C7s qualifications are and what employment he's been in, yet he thinks he knows some secret that the professionals haven't uncovered. He's been provided with the contact details for one of his witnesses, but refuses to ask them for clarification. Quite cowardly really.
 
Astaneh article said:
New York building codes would have prevented the towers' flimsy design, he said, but federal laws allowed engineers to ignore those codes.
This is incorrect. As a major part of NIST's investigation was to recommend building code revisions, extensive study was made of the codes existing at the time of the Towers' construction and whether the buildings did in fact meet the codes. Comparison is also made to several other municipal and national construction codes. From NCSTAR 1-1E, page 1:
"As part of the Investigation, it has been determined that WTC 1 and WTC 2 were constructed in accordance with the Building Code of the City of New York (BCNYC) that was enacted by Local Law 76 for the year 1968."

From NCSTAR 1-1B, page 3:
"In 1965, the Port Authority instructed the design consultants for WTC 1 and WTC 2 to comply with the second and third drafts of the revised New York City Building Code then being finalized and to undertake any design revisions necessary to comply with such provisions."

The Port Authority was not required to meet existing local building codes. It did so "voluntarily," but it really had no choice: who would want to occupy the tallest buildings in the world if they weren't built to meet or exceed code requirements? Who would insure them?
 
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He says he doesn't know and that it's debatable. What he can't get his head round is, if there was a heat source capable of keeping the steel liquid then that same heat source would melt steel.
Wrong!
The molten metal was 4500[FONT=&quot]°[/FONT]F to begin with, insulation and burning debris in the pile slowed the cooling.

You are trying to deny the fact that there was molten steel six weeks later with your pathetic "It couldn't be because" garbage.
 
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C7 said:
The point here is, the weight would NOT be applied to the floor,
it would be applied to the exterior columns as the falling floor came in contact with them.
Wrong, it would be both actually. Once the columns give the floors below were involved regardless.
C7 said:
The NIST hypothesis requires the weight of the falling top section being applied to the floor.
That is NOT what happened.
Wrong again... see above.
Your ability to understand spacial concepts is non-existent.

And you ignored this
Once the collapse initiates and falls one story it is traveling at 9 meters per second. If we crush the collapsing story into rubble half a meter thick and stop the collapse at that point, what kind of dynamic load should we expect?
There would not be rubble half a meter thick when the first intact floor was impacted.

You fail to grasp the simple concept that all the weight other than the one falling floor that impacted the intact floor was being carried by the columns and these columns did not apply the weight they were carrying to the floor.
 
Wrong!
The molten metal was 4500[FONT=&quot]°[/FONT]F to begin with, insulation and burning debris in the pile slowed the cooling.
Really. And you think this would have stopped solidification of the steel (and other metals and materials that have melting points below 4500°F) after weeks? Please show how you have come to this conclusion. You are going to have to show your working. Include the localised debris pile temperature, the volume of melted steel and the rate of cooling of this steel in your calculations. Could you calculate the heat loss per minute from 1kg of liquid steel at 2500°C to air at 20°C - assume what ever area of the steel and other dimensions you like.

Lurkers: also note how he says "molten metal" again and not "molten steel" or indeed liquid steel.

It's now that we get to the meat of what C7 actually claims.

He claims that thermite melted some of the steel beams/columns/etc in the towers - fair enough. After the melting, but before the collapse this liquid steel did not solidify. The impeccable timing of the cutting devices throughout the structure meant that collapse was initiated before any liquid iron and steel could solidify, even though thermite is not a material that is exact enough to time anything due to it's nature. (just witness videos of thermite being used to see this). It's not instant and parts of the structure as well as the iron produced from the reaction would start to cool before the cutting was completed.

Nor was it distributed amongst the debris and lower Manhatten (unlike the unburned thermite that Jones claims) just like every other part of the WTC, but it all magically gathered up together and remained liquid in a few places. Fancy that eh? An enormous collapse didn't have any detrimental effect on the state of this liquid steel, nor where it ended up! Then heat from the piles along with insulation managed to keep these parts liquid, after it had all magically combined after the collapse!

We don't know how many columns or beams were cut via this method, nor do we know how much liquid steel and liquid iron was produced via thermite, but what we do know is that it all came together in several places or indeed just one place and continued to be liquid through-out the collapse and weeks later due to underground fires (which were below the melting temperature of steel) and insulation (which we have no way of determining). Mmmmn. Confused.com? (don't go there it's a price comparison webshite).

The thing is I've used high temperature furnaces - in 1994/95, I had one operating at 1200 and 1400°C as part of a university project. I've heat treated various steels, in various furnaces, in various jobs whereby 1000-1100°C was common for homogenisation (and subsequent quenching to martensite etc) and carburising and nitriding (and sometimes carbo-nitriding in biiiig computer controlled envirements). I know how long it takes for a very well insulated furnace to drop from these temperatures to lower ones. Hell look up the phrase "furnace cool" as applied to "heat treatment" and you'll get an idea.

When going from a temperature of 1400°C to 1000°C you don't turn off the furnace, you merely set the thermostat for 1000°C (and monitor with your thermocouple). The furnace will increase the heat before the temperature gets to 1000°C and steady down. Remember that the furnace is as well insulated as it could be. This would take about 4 hours. (the actual heated part was a long alumina tube about 4ft long and 4in in diameter) with the whole thing being roughly 6ft long 3 1/2 feet wide and 5ft tall and you couldn't take the end bung out to accelerate the cooling. (Amusing to see friends read the temperature and then watch me take out SiC samples and handle them about 30 seconds after they came out of 1400°C!)
 
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You fail to grasp the simple concept that all the weight other than the one falling floor that impacted the intact floor was being carried by the columns and these columns did not apply the weight they were carrying to the floor.

I'll post this for you again in honour of you prodising me with a Stundie nomination this month and a new sig.

Show me what columns are outside the perimeter.



The top section fell and hit the botton section. The columns did not imapct directly on each other.
 
Really. And you think this would have stopped solidification of the steel (and other metals and materials that have melting points below 4500°F) after weeks? Please show how you have come to this conclusion.
The steel was still molten after six weeks if you believe the witness.
If you don't believe the witness then your question is rhetorical.
 
I'll post this for you again in honour of you prodising me with a Stundie nomination this month and a new sig.

Show me what columns are outside the perimeter.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/1824449c0dd88afd66.bmp

The top section fell and hit the botton section. The columns did not imapct directly on each other.
You are incapable of seeing in your mind that it would be impossible for the core and perimeter columns to apply the weight they are carying to the floor below. I have explained this as best I can but you just don't get it.
 
I'll post this for you again in honour of you prodising me with a Stundie nomination this month and a new sig.

Show me what columns are outside the perimeter.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/1824449c0dd88afd66.bmp

The top section fell and hit the botton section. The columns did not imapct directly on each other.
In that drawing the columns are in line. The columns in the top section will apply the weight they are carrying to the columns below, not the floor.
 
You are incapable of seeing in your mind that it would be impossible for the core and perimeter columns to apply the weight they are carying to the floor below. I have explained this as best I can but you just don't get it.

You said there were column outside the perimeter. Please show this. How is my picture wrong?

The core columns were broken as were the perimeter columns. The top section was tipped therefore the columns could not impact on each other when it dropped. It would only have done this if the towers fell like the left hand tower. Even in this case the Bazant paper proves there was enough energy. So does Gregory Urich IIRC.

If they could not apply this weight to the floor below then where did this weight go?
 
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In that drawing the columns are in line. The columns in the top section will apply the weight they are carrying to the columns below, not the floor.

No, they are not inline. I guess you did not do any maths at school.

Do you want me to make it bigger and put lines against the columns?
 
The steel was still molten after six weeks if you believe the witness.
If you don't believe the witness then your question is rhetorical.

I believe the witnesses. They tell me you are lying.

Oh, wait--you mean believe the one sentence you cherry-picked that they uttered years ago! Hell, C7, even they don't believe that any more! If they did, you'd have posted it--and you have not. You have presented a grand total of zero evidence that your own prize witnesses believe what you say they do. You are lying with their words, and you know it.
 
The steel was still molten after six weeks if you believe the witness.
Yep, and if you believe the witness then you should be able to show how it's possible. Or are you saying that you believe anything that people claim to see without confirmation?

How did the liquid steel that was melted by the thermite (aswell as the liquid iron) survive as a liquid as the structure collapsed? Surely it would have broken up and have cooled to a solid as it interacted with the debris from the collapse. Did the nano-thermite impart a forcefield to the steel it melted and therefore anything that came into that field bounced off "superman stylee"?

Why did all of this liquid steel generated from several floors of burning thermite, conveniently pool at certain places in the rubble pile? How did you do that? You obviously know the answer because you know that this liquid steel was present.

Subsequently, if the NWO didn't want to be discovered why did they use thermite when it would be so obvious that liquid steel weeks later would be a definite indication that thermite was the cause? How do you determine thermite was the cause when anything capable of melting steel would be an equal suspect? Why is thermite the only possible cause rather than say "thermal cutting lances with a timer and radio transmitter attached"? Why is thermite so special? Infact I bet C7 never even heard of thermite before 2004 when Jones made it up!

Chemistry is not C7's strong point. C7 have you any qualifications in Chemistry or any other science related subject? Que - dodge- dodge passes to handwave - handwave passes to ignore - ignorance passes to move goalposts, move goal posts thinks, "phew - got away with that one!", oh no what's this another question? Where's lie got to when you need him? Damn it!
 
You said there were column outside the perimeter. Please show this. How is my picture wrong?
I said "if" the top section moved to the side a little.

The core columns were broken as were the perimeter columns.
According to NIST the core columns buckled. If the top section came straight down, all the weight on the core columns would be applied to the core columns below[or next to them]. If the top section tipped or buckled to the side, most of the weight would still be on[or next to] the core columns below. It is not possible for all or even most of the weight on the core columns to be applied to the floor outside the core as is required in the NIST hypothesis.

The top section was tipped therefore the columns could not impact on each other when it dropped
Not straight on but in order for the columns on one side to impact the floor below inside the perimeter, the other side would have to be on the perimeter columns or outside the perimeter. There is no scenario in which the core or perimeter columns could apply most, much less all, of their weight to the floor below as is required in the NIST hypothesis.
 
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