Merged Stolen Palestinian Land

[Doctor Evil]

And yet the majority fall into empty fields.

Don't get me wrong: the Palestinians should not be firing rockets into Israel of any type. And Israel is right to be concerned that the Palestinians are acquiring rockets of greater range and accuracy. But I have yet to see evidence that the Palestinians have rockets that can target anything smaller than a town. They are still pretty crude in their capability.

Have you ever considered the effect of these rockets on the lives of the people under attack. Just imagine that you go through your life, while knowing that several times a day, more or less randomly, you will hear a siren. Then you have 15 seconds to take shelter.



One of the reasons for the small number of casualties is the fact that there are concrete shelters everywhere, so you may be able to make it. After the rocket explode you wait for a couple of minutes and then may be able to come out. By the way were your kids with you? Your wife? If not, you may be very worried for them.

I am bothered by your casual dismissal of life under those rockets. Moreover, I believe that you may think differently if it was your home town under daily random attacks.

 

[Marc39]

Once again, you need to work on your rhetoric and educate yourself on the situation.

Those who live in glass houses...

There have been many days when no rockets were fired.

One rocket fired constituted a breach of the ceasefire. More importantly, one rocket fired into Israel constituted an act of war and one rocket fired at non-combatants constituted a war crime.

...but as long as Israel controls Gaza airspace and the Gaza coast, they remain the occupying power.

Having withdrawn from Gaza and as long as Israel is not a governing power in Gaza, and as long as Gaza is devoid of sovereign status, there is no occupation by Israel. Gaza is currently controlled by a terrorist regime representing a threat to Israel's security. When that threat is erased, the border controls will be relaxed.

It's hard to build Gaza when Israel will not allow in building materials, now isn't it?

The Gazans had their opportunity to begin building their Singapore when Israel withdrew from Gaza, however, since Israel's withdrawal, Hamas have, instead, focused on terrorizing Israel and turning Gaza into Somalia.

Well, by my definition a rocket that cannot be aimed accurately and has limited explosive power is a crude rocket. You are welcome to yours.
googled "children of gaza blog" and still came up with nothing. Sorry.

The IDF has better aim and better missiles. More incentives for Hamas to stop further provocations.

I have a better idea. Here is the text of 242.
Please tell me how Israel is in compliance. You can start with 1. (i).

In surrendering the entire Sinai Peninsula and Gaza, representing about 95% of the territories Israel captured in 1967, Israel has been in compliance with its major obligation under Resolution 242. Israel has also signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan. 242 also calls for Arab states to allow Israel to live at peace within secure and recognized borders free from the threat of armed aggression. It would appear that Hamas is not in compliance.

Fair enough. Then you will obviously concede that Israel blockading Gaza's coast is also an act of war, yes?
So your current position is that even if two wrongs don't make a right that 3 does?

Gaza is not a sovereign entity and Gaza is serving a a base for a terrorist regime representing a threat to Israel's security.

 

[Oliver]

Have you ever considered the effect of these rockets on the lives of the people under attack. Just imagine that you go through your life, while knowing that several times a day, more or less randomly, you will hear a siren. Then you have 15 seconds to take shelter.



One of the reasons for the small number of casualties is the fact that there are concrete shelters everywhere, so you may be able to make it. After the rocket explode you wait for a couple of minutes and then may be able to come out. By the way were your kids with you? Your wife? If not, you may be very worried for them.

I am bothered by your casual dismissal of life under those rockets. Moreover, I believe that you may think differently if it was your home town under daily random attacks.

I actually would be more worried about the lack of a nearby bunker. :">

 

[Marc39]

Googling "hamas children gaza dig tunnels" should punch up the children of gaza blog previously alluded to.

 

[gdnp]

Googling "hamas children gaza dig tunnels" should punch up the children of gaza blog previously alluded to.

Huh. All I found is this one, which is in Arabic except for the heading:

How Hamas uses children in gaza
Hamas is taking advantage of children, endangering their lives by paying them to dig tunnels which are then used for weapon and ammunition smuggling. The children risk their lives and quit school for the few pennies they earn.

It doesn't say anything about the ages of the children, so I can't really say that this is illegal child labor. Nor does it say anything about children being forced to dig tunnels, as you alleged.

Does Hamas forcing Palestinian children to dig the tunnels constitute child abuse?

(my bold).

It states that they are paid.

Is there some other link that alleges illegal forced child labor that I am missing?

Once again, I do not wish to defend the use of children to build smuggling tunnels. Only to point out that if you wish to state that the children are forced to dig tunnels, there should be evidence of force. Words have meaning.

 

[Marc39]

Huh. All I found is this one, which is in Arabic except for the heading:



It doesn't say anything about the ages of the children, so I can't really say that this is illegal child labor. Nor does it say anything about children being forced to dig tunnels, as you alleged.
(my bold).

It states that they are paid.

Is there some other link that alleges illegal forced child labor that I am missing?

Once again, I do not wish to defend the use of children to build smuggling tunnels. Only to point out that if you wish to state that the children are forced to dig tunnels, there should be evidence of force. Words have meaning.

Inane semantics.

 

[gdnp]

Those who live in glass houses...


One rocket fired constituted a breach of the ceasefire.

Unfortunately, I never claimed that rocket attacks were not cease-fire violations. You did, however, claim that not a day went by without rockets being fired, when weeks went by without rockets being fired.

More importantly, one rocket fired into Israel constituted an act of war and one rocket fired at non-combatants constituted a war crime.

Please quote where I have said otherwise. However, as I earlier stated, the blockade is also an act of war.

Having withdrawn from Gaza and as long as Israel is not a governing power in Gaza, and as long as Gaza is devoid of sovereign status, there is no occupation by Israel. Gaza is currently controlled by a terrorist regime representing a threat to Israel's security. When that threat is erased, the border controls will be relaxed.

Saying it does not make it true. Israel's control of Gaza's borders makes them the occupying power. You can turn over the day-to-day operations of the prison to the prisoners if you like, but if you maintain control of everyone and everything that goes in and out, you are still the jailer. Sorry.

The Gazans had their opportunity to begin building their Singapore when Israel withdrew from Gaza, however, since Israel's withdrawal, Hamas have, instead, focused on terrorizing Israel and turning Gaza into Somalia.

Wrong. Israel has always maintained control of Gaza's borders. They even have de facto control of the Egyptian border:

However, Israel maintained its control over the crossings in and out of Gaza. The Rafah crossing between Egypt and Gaza was monitored by the Israeli army through special surveillance cameras. Official documents such as passports, I.D. cards, export and import papers, and many others had to be approved by the Israeli army

Israel's continued status as the occupying power does not seem to be disputed by anyone but Israel:

Dispute over occupation status

Under international law there are certain laws of war governing military occupation, including the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 and the Fourth Geneva Convention.[21] Israel states that Gaza is no longer occupied, inasmuch as Israel does not exercise effective control or authority over any land or institutions in the Gaza Strip.[22][23] Foreign Affairs Minister of Israel Tzipi Livni stated in January, 2008: “Israel got out of Gaza. It dismantled its settlements there. No Israeli soldiers were left there after the disengagement.”[24]

However, this has been disputed because Gaza does not belong to any sovereign state and because of Israel’s effective control of the borders of Gaza, including its long ocean border. Immediately after Israel withdrew in 2005, Palestine Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas stated, "the legal status of the areas slated for evacuation has not changed."[22] Soon after Palestinian American attorney Gregory Khalil said “Israel still controls every person, every good, literally every drop of water to enter or leave the Gaza Strip. Its troops may not be there … but it still restricts the ability for the Palestinian authority to exercise control.”[25] Human Rights Watch also contested that this ended the occupation.[26][27]

The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs maintains an office on “Occupied Palestinian Territory,” which concerns itself with the Gaza Strip.[28] A July 2004 opinion of the International Court of Justice treated Gaza as part of the occupied territories.[29] In his statement on the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict Richard Falk, United Nations Special Rapporteur on "the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories" wrote that international humanitarian law applied to Israel “in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war."[30] In a 2009 interview on Democracy Now Christopher Gunness, spokesperson for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) contends that Israel is an occupying power . However, Meagan Buren, Senior Adviser to the Israel Project, contests that characterization.[31]

In surrendering the entire Sinai Peninsula and Gaza, representing about 95% of the territories Israel captured in 1967, Israel has been in compliance with its major obligation under Resolution 242. Israel has also signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan.

Ah. So you agree that they have not complied with 242, which calls for returning all the land, not 95% of the land. Especially when most of that land returned is uninhabited desert.

242 also calls for Arab states to allow Israel to live at peace within secure and recognized borders free from the threat of armed aggression. It would appear that Hamas is not in compliance.

I was not aware that Hamas was an Arab state. I thought they were a terrorist organization and political party.

Gaza is not a sovereign entity and Gaza is serving a a base for a terrorist regime representing a threat to Israel's security.

Correct. Gaza is not a sovereign entity. It is Israeli occupied territory. Glad we finally cleared that up.

 

[gdnp]

Inane semantics.

Not to the child workers.

I have read several articles on these tunnels that made them seem like family enterprises. They are mostly built by entrepreneurs who find it a lucrative way to make a profit off the Israeli blockade. As usual, scarcity benefits the outlaws.

I would not be surprised if a family with several sons would make the calculation that pulling their teenage kids out of school to build a smuggling tunnel might lead to better future job prospects than having them finish their education and then join the ranks of the 50% of the population that is unemployed. It doesn't look like the occupation is going to end any time soon.

 

[Marc39]

Unfortunately, I never claimed that rocket attacks were not cease-fire violations. You did, however, claim that not a day went by without rockets being fired, when weeks went by without rockets being fired.

Please quote where I have said otherwise. However, as I earlier stated, the blockade is also an act of war.

Saying it does not make it true. Israel's control of Gaza's borders makes them the occupying power. You can turn over the day-to-day operations of the prison to the prisoners if you like, but if you maintain control of everyone and everything that goes in and out, you are still the jailer. Sorry.



Wrong. Israel has always maintained control of Gaza's borders. They even have de facto control of the Egyptian border:


Israel's continued status as the occupying power does not seem to be disputed by anyone but Israel:




Ah. So you agree that they have not complied with 242, which calls for returning all the land, not 95% of the land. Especially when most of that land returned is uninhabited desert.
I was not aware that Hamas was an Arab state. I thought they were a terrorist organization and political party.

Correct. Gaza is not a sovereign entity. It is Israeli occupied territory. Glad we finally cleared that up.

No state is required to permit trade across its own borders absent specific treaty obligations to the contrary. Israel has no obligation to permit goods to cross its borders into Gaza. By the same token, Egypt had the right to restrict trade crossing Egypt's border into Israel. The Straits of Tiran, however, are international waters. Using force in international waters in order to block shipping reaching another sovereign state, as Egypt did in the Straits of Tiran, was a violation of Israel's sovereignty and a belligerent act. Mislabeling as a blockade Israel's restrictions on trade across its own border with Gaza and the creation a false equivalence with Egypt's siege of Israel in 1967 does not change the legal rules or the relevant facts.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

If they remained in Israel during the '48 war, they would be part of the nearly 2 million Arab population in Israel today.

Errr, these settlements parky is referring to aren't in Israel they are in the West bank.

Marc39 you are making yourself increasingly foolish. A number of posters, from multiple sides of the argument I might add, have shown your level of knowledge to be erroneous.

By all means defend Israel's atrocities and persecutions but please get your facts straight.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Yea, what about that part ?

I've had the pro Palestinian side telling me that the blockade was never lifted after the commencement of "the lull" yet that pdf document ( granted, it's Israeli ) tells me that goods were flowing.

Well yeah granted it's Israeli and anything from the Israeli establishment can't be trusted. What does goods are flowing mean anyway? it might have been a small box of paper clips.

The fact is that Israel has a long list of banned goods including the concrete and steel necessary to rebuild and maintain the gazan infrastructure. So no the blockade wasn't lifted and thus Israel never kept to the ceasefire agreement.

 

[Marc39]

Ah. So you agree that they have not complied with 242, which calls for returning all the land, not 95% of the land.

Resolution 242 does not compel Israel to unilaterally withdraw from ALL the territories to fulfill its terms. Special care was taken in the wording of the resolution so as to not suggest Israel return to pre-'67 borders. It also requires direct negotiations between Israel and its Arab neighbors, in this case, the PA, which would lead to an evacuation of the West Bank. According to Resolution 242, there is no Israeli obligation to withdraw prior to the achievement of a comprehensive peace. Until that comprehensive peace is attained with the PA, Israel is not required to vacate the West Bank and Israel remains in accord with Res. 242.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Inane semantics.

Admission of defeat.

 

[Thunder]

Resolution 242 does not compel Israel to unilaterally withdraw from ALL the territories to fulfill its terms. Special care was taken in the wording of the resolution so as to not suggest Israel return to pre-'67 borders. It also requires direct negotiations between Israel and its Arab neighbors, in this case, the PA, which would lead to an evacuation of the West Bank. According to Resolution 242, there is no Israeli obligation to withdraw prior to the achievement of a comprehensive peace. Until that comprehensive peace is attained with the PA, Israel is not required to vacate the West Bank and Israel remains in accord with Res. 242.

Yes. No honest person expects Israel to return land to people who will not be at peace with them.

Full withdrawal..for full peace. This must be the equation. No 10 year truce..or 20 year half-peace. Full diplomatic and economic with entire Arab world, for a full withdrawal from the West Bank (small land exchanges allowed).

 

[Marc39]

Errr, these settlements parky is referring to aren't in Israel they are in the West bank.

Marc39 you are making yourself increasingly foolish. A number of posters, from multiple sides of the argument I might add, have shown your level of knowledge to be erroneous.

By all means defend Israel's atrocities and persecutions but please get your facts straight.

The West Bank has no sovereign status, it's disputed territory, having been captured from the Jordanian government, not the "Palestinians". As for atrocities and persecutions against "Palestinians", Lebanon, Jordan and Kuwait would be at the top of the list of perpetrators.

 

[Marc39]

Errr, these settlements parky is referring to aren't in Israel they are in the West bank.

Marc39 you are making yourself increasingly foolish. A number of posters, from multiple sides of the argument I might add, have shown your level of knowledge to be erroneous.

By all means defend Israel's atrocities and persecutions but please get your facts straight.

The West Bank has no sovereign status, it's disputed territory, having been captured from the Jordanian government, not the "Palestinians". As for atrocities and persecutions against "Palestinians", Lebanon, Jordan and Kuwait would be at the top of the list of perpetrators.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

The West Bank has no sovereign status, it's disputed territory, having been captured from the Jordanian government, not the "Palestinians". As for atrocities and persecutions against "Palestinians", Lebanon, Jordan and Kuwait would be at the top of the list of perpetrators.

So you've been running off and reading Wikipedia?

And really, what is the purpose of your ridiculously out of context post?

The west bank was controlled by the Jordanian government for a while? So?

The West Bank has no sovereign status. So?

Expansionist Israelis want it for themselves and thus call it a disputed territory ( are you a supporter of Israeli Expansionsm? ). So?

.. and saying 'not the Palestinians' is absurd. <shakes head in amazement>


Can you enlighten us as to the point of these statements?

 

[Thunder]

The West Bank has no sovereign status, it's disputed territory, having been captured from the Jordanian government, not the "Palestinians". As for atrocities and persecutions against "Palestinians", Lebanon, Jordan and Kuwait would be at the top of the list of perpetrators.

Just because the future ruler of the West Bank is disputed doesn't mean the land isnt occupied.

The West Bank is occupied and the occupier is Israel.

From 1949 to 1967 Jordan was the occupier.

 

[Marc39]

Expansionist Israelis

Are Israel's return of the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt and their withdrawal from Gaza, and their offer in 2000 to return most of the West Bank examples of "Israeli expansionism"?

 

[Marc39]

Just because the future ruler of the West Bank is disputed doesn't mean the land isnt occupied.

The West Bank is occupied and the occupier is Israel.

From 1949 to 1967 Jordan was the occupier.

You say the West Bank is occupied, others say not. I don't know of an independent nation called the West Bank.