Merged Stolen Palestinian Land

[Stout]

Yea, what about that part ?

I've had the pro Palestinian side telling me that the blockade was never lifted after the commencement of "the lull" yet that pdf document ( granted, it's Israeli ) tells me that goods were flowing.

Also, the pro-Palestinian side keeps telling me that Israel violated the cease fire on Nov 4, yet neglects to tell me why they took those actions ( ref. Finkelstein ) Now given the Palestinians predisposition to digging tunnels, there was what ? 1000+ tunnels into Egypt I don't doubt that that "hole they were digging" was designed for offensive reasons.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

No, are YOU stupid?

Grow up, stop the single digit IQ childish personal attacks, and start educating your stubborn, naive self about the Zionist Movement, a proactive group started by Theodore Herzl that planned and brought about the creation of Israel with the aid of the British and at the expense of the indigenous Palestinians and the simple belief that Jews have a right to a homeland.

If your alleged 'exceptionally competent lecturers' are not aware of the difference then you oughta find new tutors.

You are suffering from an acute bout of Appeal to Authority. Look it up. Read about it and stop limiting your horizons by logical fallacies.

You need to start thinking for yourself, otherwise you are just going to turn out like a clone of some politically biased Borg that preceded you.

ARGH.

This is like talking to a brick wall, I swear.

Primarily, my university professors, who have helped my uni to be one of the best in the world for International Politics, are not the only "authority" I am using. I'm also referring to journals and books. Are ALL academics lying TFT?

Secondly, the fallacy is Argument From Incorrect Authority, and referencing accurate and pertinent authority is not a fallacy.

Thirdly, I understand the difference between the Zionist movement and people who just agree that Israel has the right to exist. It's just that there is no formal distinction between the terms YOU use ("Zionist" and "zionist") within ANY literature that I have come across. There is just "Zionis(m/ist)" as a term. That is it. Zionis(m/ist) is ONLY used in that way. People who believe that Israel have a right to exist are not referred to by any special term.

Finally, your assessment of me as having a single digit IQ is not only laughably incorrect, but a rather childish attempt at a personal attack. I'm not reporting it because quite frankly, it and yourself are beneath me. I was, I admit, being rude when I asked if you were stupid, but your failure to grasp my point and instead start ranting about something adjacent to the point I was raising rather than the point itself was not indicative of being able to argue accurately.

 

[gdnp]

ETA: also, what about this part:

Quote:
During the first period the crossings between Israel and the Gaza Strip were open most of the time ( Israel closed them for short intervals in response to rocket fire). Scores of trucks delivered large quantities of consumer goods through the Karni and Sufa (and later Kerem Shalom) crossings on a daily basis, including supplies of commodities Israel had previously not permitted into the Gaza Strip, such as cement and iron. Hamas leaders admitted that there was an improvement in the supply of goods and that civilian life was returning to normal. Life also returned to normal in the western Negev towns and villages for the first time in the period preceding the lull.als in response to rocket fire). Scores of trucks delivered large quantities of consumer goods

What these authors fail to point out is that shipment of supplies through Israel increased from almost nil to maybe 80-100 trucks per day. But prior to the Hamas takeover in Gaza traffic was much higher:

Gaza Crossing Activities: All imports halted, with severe impact

This week, as all Gaza goods crossings were closed, no imports entered the Gaza Strip. Since the intensification of the closure regime on 5 November, the amount of imports entering Gaza had been severely reduced to an average of 16 truckloads per day—down from 123 truckloads per day in October and 475 trucks per day in May 2007—before the Hamas takeover. The prolonged closure of the crossing has led to an almost complete depletion of the stocks of basic commodities and has severely affected the operational capacity of humanitarian agencies.

Do you think when Hamas agreed to a cease-fire in exchange for reopening the crossings that they were expecting 1/5 the traffic of baseline, or a return to the baseline?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

ARGH.

This is like talking to a brick wall, I swear.

Primarily, my university professors, who have helped my uni to be one of the best in the world for International Politics, are not the only "authority" I am using. I'm also referring to journals and books. Are ALL academics lying TFT?

Secondly, the fallacy is Argument From Incorrect Authority, and referencing accurate and pertinent authority is not a fallacy.

Thirdly, I understand the difference between the Zionist movement and people who just agree that Israel has the right to exist. It's just that there is no formal distinction between the terms YOU use ("Zionist" and "zionist") within ANY literature that I have come across. There is just "Zionis(m/ist)" as a term. That is it. Zionis(m/ist) is ONLY used in that way. People who believe that Israel have a right to exist are not referred to by any special term.

Finally, your assessment of me as having a single digit IQ is not only laughably incorrect, but a rather childish attempt at a personal attack. I'm not reporting it because quite frankly, it and yourself are beneath me. I was, I admit, being rude when I asked if you were stupid, but your failure to grasp my point and instead start ranting about something adjacent to the point I was raising rather than the point itself was not indicative of being able to argue accurately.

Addendum: The state of Israel was created with the help of the British you say?

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

No.

The British in fact agreed to give the land to the Jews, but then retracted this promise because they did not want mass migration of Jews to the area. They in fact then promised the land to the PALESTINIANS, going against the previously decided formation of Israel decided after the Peel Commission.

 

[IDB87]

Do you think when Hamas agreed to a cease-fire in exchange for reopening the crossings that they were expecting 1/5 the traffic of baseline, or a return to the baseline?

Were they told what they could expect? Was there any agreed upon amount of traffic that would be allowed in Gaza?

 

[gdnp]

Were they told what they could expect? Was there any agreed upon amount of traffic that would be allowed in Gaza?

Don't know. AFAIK the agreement that led to the pause was never really negotiated because Israel and Hamas do not talk to each other. So each kinda said what they would do and what they expected the other side to do in return.

I'd say Israel came closer to getting a 100% reduction in the number of missiles than Hamas did to getting 100% reopening of the borders.

I don't know how to measure how much outside supplies Gaza needs to be viable. 80 trucks a day doesn't sound like much for a territory of 1.5 million people, no natural resources, and extreme poverty. It's about 1/40th of a truck per person per year: food, clothing, medicine, building supplies, etc.

 

[Pardalis]

What these authors fail to point out is that shipment of supplies through Israel increased from almost nil to maybe 80-100 trucks per day. But prior to the Hamas takeover in Gaza traffic was much higher:

Do you think when Hamas agreed to a cease-fire in exchange for reopening the crossings that they were expecting 1/5 the traffic of baseline, or a return to the baseline?

Maybe there should have been more trucks per day, and maybe they would have increased over time, but remember that rocket attacks were still going on, and remember also that Hamas took over at the time, I don't blame the Israelis for not trusting completely that organization, as they never shown to be trustworthy.

 

[lupus_in_fabula]

Were they told what they could expect? Was there any agreed upon amount of traffic that would be allowed in Gaza?

From Amy Goodman's interview with Robert Pastor (senior adviser to the Carter Center and a professor at American University who met with exiled Hamas political leader Khaled Meshaal in Damascus on Dec. 14, along with former President Jimmy Carter):

AMY GOODMAN: So, Robert Pastor, are you saying that it was Israel that broke the ceasefire and that the Israeli assault could have been avoided?

ROBERT PASTOR: I’m saying that both sides violated the key elements of the ceasefire. The rockets never absolutely completely stopped, even though they went from about 250 a month to fewer than three a month. From the standpoint of Israel, that may not have been good enough. On the other hand, from the principal concern of Hamas, which was to open the barriers, Israel really never tried very hard to open them. The numbers of trucks, on average, that went in increased from 100 to 200, but the amount that was supposed to go in was roughly 750 a day. Israel never came close to that. I think, as I said, to make the ceasefire work, both sides need to comply.

 

[gdnp]

Maybe there should have been more trucks per day, and maybe they would have increased over time, but remember that rocket attacks were still going on, and remember also that Hamas took over at the time, I don't blame the Israelis for not trusting completely that organization, as they never shown to be trustworthy.

You can say the same from the other side: there should have been fewer rockets, but it has been alleged that Hamas maintained the cease-fire, with rockets fired by rogue elements including their Fatah-linked rivals who may have wished to undermine the cease-fire. And as to who is trustworthy or not, there have been several agreements that call for a halt to settlements in the west bank, yet settlements continue to expand and new outposts, illegal even under Israeli law, are allowed to remain.

I think here the Palestinians have the greater complaint: the rockets dropped to a small fraction of what they were before the cease-fire, and Hamas does not appear to have been firing them, yet truck traffic never came close to approaching the pre-Hamas baseline level.

 

[IDB87]

The numbers of trucks, on average, that went in increased from 100 to 200, but the amount that was supposed to go in was roughly 750 a day.

Is this figure of 750 trucks a day supposed to maintain Gaza, or was it the amount Israel compromised on?

 

[Stout]

What these authors fail to point out is that shipment of supplies through Israel increased from almost nil to maybe 80-100 trucks per day. But prior to the Hamas takeover in Gaza traffic was much higher:

Thanks gdnp


One would *think* they were expecting a return to baseline.

 

[gumboot]

The British in fact agreed to give the land to the Jews, but then retracted this promise because they did not want mass migration of Jews to the area. They in fact then promised the land to the PALESTINIANS, going against the previously decided formation of Israel decided after the Peel Commission.

That's not quite how it went. The League of Nations promised to provide an Arab homeland from the disassembled Ottoman Empire.

In reality the Arabs got several homelands out of it. These included; Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Lebanon, and Syria. In fact, the Arab homeland(s) also included the majority of the British mandate of Palestine - this became known as Jordan.

The issue isn't that Arabs wanted a homeland. They were given independent homelands by the bucketful. The issue is the Arabs wanted all of it, and more specifically, the Arabs didn't want a Jewish homeland.

The Palestine/Israel conflict can be summarised as follows. A huge feast is to be divided up amongst two groups of people; one group very large and one very small. The large group get a vast collection of delicious foods; roast pheasant, pies, toffee, an entire roast bull, turkey, apples, icecream, and so forth. The little group are given a bowl of plums.

The big group then demand that the little group share their plums with the big group, because otherwise it's not fair, as the big group don't have any plums.

 

[gdnp]

The Palestine/Israel conflict can be summarised as follows. A huge feast is to be divided up amongst two groups of people; one group very large and one very small. The large group get a vast collection of delicious foods; roast pheasant, pies, toffee, an entire roast bull, turkey, apples, icecream, and so forth. The little group are given a bowl of plums.

The big group then demand that the little group share their plums with the big group, because otherwise it's not fair, as the big group don't have any plums.

Well, except that from the perspective of the big group, the little group wasn't invited, crashed the party and took all the plums, moved into one of the guest rooms. and refuses to go home.

 

[gumboot]

Well, except that from the perspective of the big group, the little group wasn't invited, crashed the party and took all the plums, moved into one of the guest rooms. and refuses to go home.

And from the perspective of the little group they were invited to the party, brought a plate of plums with them, then the party got gate-crashed by a bunch of yahoos who stole their plums off them, and the rest of the feast too, and kicked the small group out and enslaved the big group.

 

[Marc39]

Given the fact that the Arab Muslims invaded and conquered Palestine in the 7th century, my view is the Arabs stole the land from the Jews, and Christians, first. And, unlike the Zionists who later settled in Palestine, the Muslims threatened the Jews and Christians with death if they didn't convert to Islam.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Given the fact that the Arab Muslims invaded and conquered Palestine in the 7th century, my view is the Arabs stole the land from the Jews, and Christians, first. And, unlike the Zionists who later settled in Palestine, the Muslims threatened the Jews and Christians with death if they didn't convert to Islam.

Only threatened them with death?

If you've missed recent events then it might be worth informing you of actual death that has occurred in the recent winter Gaza slaughter by Israel.

 

[The Fool]

In reality the Arabs got several homelands out of it. These included; Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Lebanon, and Syria. In fact, the Arab homeland(s) also included the majority of the British mandate of Palestine - this became known as Jordan.

The issue isn't that Arabs wanted a homeland. They were given independent homelands by the bucketful. The issue is the Arabs wanted all of it, and more specifically, the Arabs didn't want a Jewish homeland.

And white Christians were given a homeland in Asia(australia) so why on earth do New Zealanders think they have a right to a homeland.....oh hang on...thats right. All white christians are not the same unlike all arabs? Christians have heaps of countries bugger the New Zealanders eh?

 

[Marc39]

Only threatened them with death?

If you've missed recent events then it might be worth informing you of actual death that has occurred in the recent winter Gaza slaughter by Israel.

I didn't miss anything in Gaza, which is why I can inform you that "actual death" is one reality of war, a war provoked by Hamas firing thousands of rockets into Israel over the course of several years. And, the Muslim invasion of Palestine involved more than mere death threats, it involved the slaughtering of Jews and Christians. It was one of the earliest jihads.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I didn't miss anything in Gaza, which is why I can inform you that "actual death" is one reality of war, a war provoked by Hamas firing thousands of rockets into Israel over the course of several years.

Oh dear. So the Zionist occupation of Palestine is all the fault of Hamas then? The apartheid in the West Bank? The displacement and expulsion of 800,000 palestinians is the fault of Hamas? The continued stealing of Palestinian land and the continued expansionism of building more and more settlements is the fault of Hamas?

So can you explain to us how the 60 year persecution of the Palestinians is the fault of Hamas? Or should we wait until you've learned about the region before making yourself look really foolish?

Perhaps you would like to tell us when Hamas was formed? And let's not forget that Israel played a part in the creation of Hamas. Parky posted a thread about that a few weeks ago.

And in regards to the recent slaughter of the Gazans ....

The ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas that was supposed to be in place before the December slaughter was NEVER adhered to by Israel in the first place. And Israel broke the agreement further in November 2008.

So get your facts straight. The ceasefire agreement was broken by Israel, in fact it never complied with it in the first place. Like it never complies with the scores of UN resolutions passed against it.

Israel is an aggressive nation in the region and people should stop believing all the propagandic BS about it being a victim.

And, the Muslim invasion of Palestine involved more than mere death threats, it involved the slaughtering of Jews and Christians. It was one of the earliest jihads.

I'm no fan of Islam, a hideous cult, so you won't find any condoning of that from me. But how are the modern day Palestinians to blame for an atrocity that happened many many hundreds of years ago?

Are you someone who holds a long term grudge?

 

[Marc39]

Oh dear. So the Zionist occupation of Palestine is all the fault of Hamas then? The apartheid in the West Bank? The displacement and expulsion of 800,000 palestinians is the fault of Hamas? The continued stealing of Palestinian land and the continued expansionism of building more and more settlements is the fault of Hamas?

So can you explain to us how the 60 year persecution of the Palestinians is the fault of Hamas? Or should we wait until you've learned about the region before making yourself look really foolish?

Perhaps you would like to tell us when Hamas was formed? And let's not forget that Israel played a part in the creation of Hamas. Parky posted a thread about that a few weeks ago.

And in regards to the recent slaughter of the Gazans ....

The ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas that was supposed to be in place before the December slaughter was NEVER adhered to by Israel in the first place. And Israel broke the agreement further in November 2008.

So get your facts straight. The ceasefire agreement was broken by Israel, in fact it never complied with it in the first place. Like it never complies with the scores of UN resolutions passed against it.

Israel is an aggressive nation in the region and people should stop believing all the propagandic BS about it being a victim.




I'm no fan of Islam, a hideous cult, so you won't find any condoning of that from me. But how are the modern day Palestinians to blame for an atrocity that happened many many hundreds of years ago?

Are you someone who holds a long term grudge?

Oh dear. So the Zionist occupation of Palestine is all the fault of Hamas then?

Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, so, there is no occupation. Subsequent actions, from border closures to the recent military incursion, are the result of Hamas and Palestinian violence toward Israel. Had Hamas and the Palestinians focused on building a society in Gaza instead of trying to destroy Israel's, they would be in much better shape.

The apartheid in the West Bank?

How do you figure apartheid exists in the West Bank?

The displacement and expulsion of 800,000 palestinians is the fault of Hamas?

When were 800,000 Palestinians expelled?

The continued stealing of Palestinian land and the continued expansionism of building more and more settlements is the fault of Hamas?

How did Israel "steal" land? In terms of Israeli "expansionism", was returning Sinai, a land mass larger than Israel, itself, to Egypt expansionist? Was withdrawing from Gaza expansionist? Was the 2000 Camp David offer from Israel of returniing 100% of Gaza and 97% of the West Bank expansionist? On another note, was the Egyptian annexation of Gaza and the Jordanian annexation of the West Bank for the nearly 20-yr period from '48 to '67 expansionist? I didn't hear howls from the Palestinians about occupation and self-deterination back then. Why do you suppose that was?

So can you explain to us how the 60 year persecution of the Palestinians is the fault of Hamas?

Considering it has been the Arabs persecuting the Israelis, from 3 wars to a series of suicide bomb and car bomb intifadas inflicted upon innocent Israeli men, women and children (both Israel Jew and Israeli Arab) to Hamas firing 6,000 rockets into Israel for eight years to Iran threatening to wipe Israel off the map, and on and on, I don't accept your assertion of any kind of 60 year Palestinian persecution, at least not at the hands of the Israelis.

Or should we wait until you've learned about the region before making yourself look really foolish?

Thanks, but, I have quite a bit of knowledge of the region. Should we wait for you?

Perhaps you would like to tell us when Hamas was formed? And let's not forget that Israel played a part in the creation of Hamas. Parky posted a thread about that a few weeks ago.

Does that justify Hamas's covenant to destroy Israel?

The ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas that was supposed to be in place before the December slaughter was NEVER adhered to by Israel in the first place.

Did Hamas "adhere to" the "ceasefire agreeent" when they were arming themselves and smuggling rockets through the underground tunnels? Was Hamas spending the hundreds of millions of dollars for those missiles wisely when the money could have been better spent on improving the lives of the Palestinians? Does Hamas forcing Palestinian children to dig the tunnels constitute child abuse?

And Israel broke the agreement further in November 2008.

Hamas chose not to renew the ceasefire in December. It's a cycle and I don't think anybody really can document definitively who broke the agreement first as both sides respond the each other on a regular basis. You could never say who fired the first shot first. However, Hamas continues to fire rockets into Israel, breaking the new "truce" each time.

So get your facts straight.

I think I do. You might wish to do the same.

Like it never complies with the scores of UN resolutions passed against it.

UN resolutions are non-binding, however, what resolutions has Israel not complied with?

Israel is an aggressive nation in the region and people should stop believing all the propagandic BS about it being a victim.

Who's BS'ing whom? Under international law, any nation has a right to self-defense, which you may view as aggression and others view as self-preservation. It was not Israel who launched war on the Arabs in '48, '67 and '73. Nor was it Israel who invaded Palestine in 638 AD to conquer the Arabs. That was done by the Arabs to the Jews.

I'm no fan of Islam, a hideous cult, so you won't find any condoning of that from me. But how are the modern day Palestinians to blame for an atrocity that happened many many hundreds of years ago?

Palestine has historically been occupied by dozens of regimes and Israel's presence in Palestine is a continuation of that history. Except, the Zionists paid for the land and tried to live with the Arab farmers, they didn't conquer the land and kill them.

Are you someone who holds a long term grudge?

Not at all, but, you evidently do, at least a 60-year grudge.