Merged Stolen Palestinian Land

[a_unique_person]

Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, so, there is no occupation.

When did they withdraw from the West Bank? I must have missed that. Last I heard expansion in the West Bank was going ahead at full speed.

 

[Marc39]

When did they withdraw from the West Bank? I must have missed that. Last I heard expansion in the West Bank was going ahead at full speed.

When the Palestinians forge a formal peace treaty with Israel, I believe Israel will withdraw from the WB, as they did from Gaza. The WB is a negotiating tool and a buffer zone for Israel's security, IMO. When Arafat rejected the 2000 Camp David offer that included disengageent from the WB, Saudi Prince Bandar said it was more than a mistake on Arafat's part, he said it was a "crime"

 

[a_unique_person]

When the Palestinians forge a formal peace treaty with Israel, I believe Israel will withdraw from the WB, as they did from Gaza. The WB is a negotiating tool and a buffer zone for Israel's security, IMO. When Arafat rejected the 2000 Camp David offer that included disengageent from the WB, Saudi Prince Bandar said it was more than a mistake on Arafat's part, he said it was a "crime"

I thought Arafat should have retired before Camp David, he was a broken man, and others could have done a better job. What was being offered at Camp David was still not acceptable, since it left the WB riddled with roads and settlements, but a better negotiator or leader with a new image may have been able to work their way to something that was acceptable.

Israel won't withdraw from the WB. The 'wall' was always going to be the new border, otherwise it was a complete waste of a lot of money and political capital, with the Palestinians being offered the take it or leave it offer of a Bantustan.

 

[IDB87]

I thought Arafat should have retired before Camp David, he was a broken man, and others could have done a better job. What was being offered at Camp David was still not acceptable, since it left the WB riddled with roads and settlements

The offer was to uproot all settlements from all but 95% of the West Bank, and to allow certain settlements to be built on agreed upon land.

but a better negotiator or leader with a new image may have been able to work their way to something that was acceptable.

I would like to see the new PM make the same offer to the leaders of Fatah. If anything, it would at least show Israel's commitment to those kinds of offers.

 

[Marc39]

I thought Arafat should have retired before Camp David, he was a broken man, and others could have done a better job. What was being offered at Camp David was still not acceptable, since it left the WB riddled with roads and settlements, but a better negotiator or leader with a new image may have been able to work their way to something that was acceptable.

Israel won't withdraw from the WB. The 'wall' was always going to be the new border, otherwise it was a complete waste of a lot of money and political capital, with the Palestinians being offered the take it or leave it offer of a Bantustan.

Dennis Ross says Arafat walked away from the Israeli offer because had he accepted it, his whole raison d'etre would have evaporated. A terrorist without a cause is lost. The Palestinians brought the wall on themselves with the suicide bombing, so, I have no compassion for them in this regard. It's no coincidence the bombings have since stopped.

 

[Marc39]

The offer was to uproot all settlements from all but 95% of the West Bank, and to allow certain settlements to be built on agreed upon land.



I would like to see the new PM make the same offer to the leaders of Fatah. If anything, it would at least show Israel's commitment to those kinds of offers.

When Israel withdrew from Gaza, they uprooted the Jewish cemetaries, as well, leaving Gaza Judenfrei. As an added goodwill gesture, they left about 400 state-of-the-art greenhouses that would have helped the Palestinians get on their feet, however, the greenhouses ended up looted and destroyed.

 

[IDB87]

When Israel withdrew from Gaza, they uprooted the Jewish cemetaries, as well, leaving Gaza Judenfrei. As an added goodwill gesture, they left about 400 state-of-the-art greenhouses that would have helped the Palestinians get on their feet, however, the greenhouses ended up looted and destroyed.

What does this have to do with the West Bank? Fatah controls the West Bank, not Hamas.

Why do we not see suicide bombers flooding out of the West Bank, or daily rocket barrages? Is it because of the wall, or is it because of Fatah's shift from terrorist to legitimate (debatable) political entity?

 

[Marc39]

What does this have to do with the West Bank? Fatah controls the West Bank, not Hamas.

Past is prologue.

Why do we not see suicide bombers flooding out of the West Bank, or daily rocket barrages? Is it because of the wall, or is it because of Fatah's shift from terrorist to legitimate (debatable) political entity?

Maybe a combination of the two.

 

[gdnp]

Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, so, there is no occupation. Subsequent actions, from border closures to the recent military incursion, are the result of Hamas and Palestinian violence toward Israel. Had Hamas and the Palestinians focused on building a society in Gaza instead of trying to destroy Israel's, they would be in much better shape.

Not for a single day were the borders opened. Israel remains the occupying power

How do you figure apartheid exists in the West Bank?

Are their Arab towns and Israeli towns? Are there different rights granted to the residents based on their ethnicity?

When were 800,000 Palestinians expelled?

1947-1948

How did Israel "steal" land?

They build Jewish-only settlements on Palestinian owned land. They have annexed Palestinian territories. They refuse to let Palestinian refugees return to their land.

Thanks, but, I have quite a bit of knowledge of the region.

Your questions above and below belie this. Quite frankly, you are ignorant of some pretty basic facts.

Did Hamas "adhere to" the "ceasefire agreeent" when they were arming themselves and smuggling rockets through the underground tunnels?

Did the cease-fire agreement call for Hamas to disarm? I don't think so. So I guess these were not cease-fire violations.

Was Hamas spending the hundreds of millions of dollars for those missiles wisely when the money could have been better spent on improving the lives of the Palestinians?

Let's say 10,000 rockets for "hundreds of millions of dollars". That would be at least $10,000 dollars per rocket. Could you provide your source for this number, please? I was under the impression that most of these rockets were pretty crude, home-made contraptions.

Does Hamas forcing Palestinian children to dig the tunnels constitute child abuse?

Huh. I searched the first two pages of a google search of "palestinian tunnel child labor" and came up with nothing. I did find this reference claiming that child prisoners in israeli jails are forced to work, however. Do you have evidence that tunnels are being built with forced child labor?

Hamas chose not to renew the ceasefire in December. It's a cycle and I don't think anybody really can document definitively who broke the agreement first as both sides respond the each other on a regular basis. You could never say who fired the first shot first. However, Hamas continues to fire rockets into Israel, breaking the new "truce" each time.

You do realize that many of these rockets are fired by factions other than Hamas, don't you?

UN resolutions are non-binding, however, what resolutions has Israel not complied with?

You can start with resolution 242. Once again, this is pretty basic stuff.

Who's BS'ing whom? Under international law, any nation has a right to self-defense, which you may view as aggression and others view as self-preservation. It was not Israel who launched war on the Arabs in '48, '67 and '73. Nor was it Israel who invaded Palestine in 638 AD to conquer the Arabs. That was done by the Arabs to the Jews.

Once again, you may wish to watch what you say. The 1967 war began with an Israeli attack:

On June 5, 1967, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack[12] against Egypt's airforce.

Nasser had kicked out peacekeepers and was massing troops in the Sinai, but Israel fired the first shots.

Palestine has historically been occupied by dozens of regimes and Israel's presence in Palestine is a continuation of that history.

Is past Arab oppression of the Palestinians meant to justify current Israeli oppression? Should the Arabs be allowed to oppress the Jew because the Christians did for centuries?

 

[Marc39]

Not for a single day were the borders opened. Israel remains the occupying power

Not for a single day did Hamas refrain from firing rockets into Israel, a war crime, since day one of Israel's departure from Gaza. No peace for land with Hamas. By the way, Egypt has steadfastly kept the Rafah border to Gaza closed, too, which usually gets lost in the discussion. Why is that? Under the definition of an occupying power, an outside state exerting governing influence over another state, Israel is not an occupying power in Gaza, although, I am aware of the difficulties presented the Gazans by having their borders closed.

They build Jewish-only settlements on Palestinian owned land. They have annexed Palestinian territories. They refuse to let Palestinian refugees return to their land. /quote]

Can you clarify what you mean by Palestinian-owned land? Because, as far as I see, there is no such thing. Israel is a sovereign state and Gaza and the West Bank are in the Twilight Zone in terms of their legal status. Where were you when Egypt and Jordan annexed land that Palestinians were living on? The "Palestinian refugees" living in Gaza today were born in Gaza. Gaza is their home. Of course, had the Arabs not waged war on Israel in '48 and had the Arab leaders not instructed the Palestinians to flee the area, and had the oil-rich Arab nations helped to resettle the Palestinians instead of using them as pawns for their own sinister reasons, the Palestinians would not have the dubious distinction of living as refugees for over half a century.

Your questions above and below belie this. Quite frankly, you are ignorant of some pretty basic facts.

I'm always eager to learn. So far, you haven't helped me in this regard.

Did the cease-fire agreement call for Hamas to disarm? I don't think so. So I guess these were not cease-fire violations.

You are joking, no? Smuggling in rockets for what purpose?

Let's say 10,000 rockets for "hundreds of millions of dollars". That would be at least $10,000 dollars per rocket. Could you provide your source for this number, please? I was under the impression that most of these rockets were pretty crude, home-made contraptions.

I don't think the starving Palestinians are calculating just how much money Hamas has been diverting. It's pretty obvious the billions in foreign aid is not going to building Gaza. The rockets are coming in from China and Iran and the only thing crude is the aim of the terrorists firing them into Israel.

Huh. I searched the first two pages of a google search of "palestinian tunnel child labor" and came up with nothing.

Allow me to help you. I'm not allowed as yet to post URLs, so go to the children of gaza blog for a video, in Arabic, showing Palestinian children forcibly digging the tunnels.

Once again, this is pretty basic stuff.

I'm well-versed in UNSCR 242. Now, how is Israel in violation of it?

Once again, you may wish to watch what you say. [/URL]:

Nasser had kicked out peacekeepers and was massing troops in the Sinai, but Israel fired the first shots.

You neglected to mention Nasser closing the Straits of Tiran, which was an act of war. Eight Arab nations mobilizing against Israel? Under international law, a nation that is under threat of an offensive military action can take preemptive measures.

Is past Arab oppression of the Palestinians meant to justify current Israeli oppression? Should the Arabs be allowed to oppress the Jew because the Christians did for centuries?

Past oppression? Hamas are oppressing Palestinians today. Hamas are so bad, Fatah now seem like saints in comparison.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Oh dear, this guy ( or girl ) clearly isn't ready to enter the big bad world of political forum debate .....

How do you figure apartheid exists in the West Bank?

When were 800,000 Palestinians expelled?

How did Israel "steal" land?

... what resolutions has Israel not complied with?

- I spit my coffee over the monitor after reading those questions. Even the most elementary of my adversaries in this forum know better than to make themselves look foolish with such naive nonsense.

Thanks, but, I have quite a bit of knowledge of the region.

errr, no you don't. You know nothing. Go away and educate yourself and come back with enough knowledge to join the debate.

This isn't a place for mollycoddling Marc39. You have to sharpen up and do your apprenticeship before cutting the mustard here.

 

[Marc39]

Oh dear, this guy ( or girl ) clearly isn't ready to enter the big bad world of political forum debate .....



- I spit my coffee over the monitor after reading those questions. Even the most elementary of my adversaries in this forum know better than to make themselves look foolish with such naive nonsense.



errr, no you don't. You know nothing. Go away and educate yourself and come back with enough knowledge to join the debate.

This isn't a place for mollycoddling Marc39. You have to sharpen up and do your apprenticeship before cutting the mustard here.

I don't spit, so, I wouldn't know about the problem you suffer from. My questions to you were not rhetorical, so, why don't you put your thinking cap on and try to answer them? Thus far, you seem to be mostly about making baseless, unsubstantiated accusations and little about actual fact. No need to patronize me as, thus, far, your knowledge is wanting.

 

[mortimer]

Not for a single day were the borders opened. Israel remains the occupying power

How do closed borders indicate an occupying power? When Israel pulled from Gaza, they only controlled the borders they shared with Gaza. After Hamas seized power, Israel instituted a naval blockade in an effort to control the flow of arms to a terrorist regime.

Are their Arab towns and Israeli towns? Are there different rights granted to the residents based on their ethnicity?

No.

Let's say 10,000 rockets for "hundreds of millions of dollars". That would be at least $10,000 dollars per rocket. Could you provide your source for this number, please? I was under the impression that most of these rockets were pretty crude, home-made contraptions.

The Qassam rockets are becoming more sophisticated. Since last year, Hamas is also using Katyusha and Grad rockets, which I'm sure are more expensive than Qassams.

You do realize that many of these rockets are fired by factions other than Hamas, don't you?

Hamas is the elected government of Gaza and thus is responsible to stop the rocket attacks, whether they are government-sponsored or not.

 

[Marc39]

Israel's expansionism was always going to increase it's area over the 1967 borders. Israel won't stop until it gets the lot. This is the Zionist agenda. There will always be some people who deny it of course.

Israel's return of Sinai, withdrawal from Gaza and a past proposal that included leaving the West Bank would appear to undermine your thesis.

 

[gdnp]

Not for a single day did Hamas refrain from firing rockets into Israel, a war crime, since day one of Israel's departure from Gaza.

Once again, you need to work on your rhetoric and educate yourself on the situation. There have been many days when no rockets were fired. In fact, I believe there was a 6 week period last fall when there were not rockets. Certainly many fewer than before the cease-fire, and as I have previously pointed out, not all the rockets were fired by Hamas. Many have been fired by Fatah-linked groups.

By the way, Egypt has steadfastly kept the Rafah border to Gaza closed, too, which usually gets lost in the discussion. Why is that? Under the definition of an occupying power, an outside state exerting governing influence over another state, Israel is not an occupying power in Gaza, although, I am aware of the difficulties presented the Gazans by having their borders closed.

As has been discussed ad nauseum in other threads, Israel has the right to control its border with Gaza, Egypt has the right to control its border with Gaza, but as long as Israel controls Gaza airspace and the Gaza coast, they remain the occupying power.

Can you clarify what you mean by Palestinian-owned land?

Land for which individual Palestinians hold the deeds.

Because, as far as I see, there is no such thing.

Then you cannot see very far. I suggest you remove your blinders.

Israel is a sovereign state and Gaza and the West Bank are in the Twilight Zone in terms of their legal status. Where were you when Egypt and Jordan annexed land that Palestinians were living on?

I was a twinkle in my mother's eye, as it happened 10 years before I was born. Next?

The "Palestinian refugees" living in Gaza today were born in Gaza. Gaza is their home. Of course, had the Arabs not waged war on Israel in '48 and had the Arab leaders not instructed the Palestinians to flee the area, and had the oil-rich Arab nations helped to resettle the Palestinians instead of using them as pawns for their own sinister reasons, the Palestinians would not have the dubious distinction of living as refugees for over half a century.

The Palestinian people have been played as pawns by both sides. The degree to which the Palestinian exodus from territory that is now Israel was the result of Arab leaders instructing the inhabitants to flee vs the Israelis forcing them out has been a topic of considerable debate over the years. Recently, many Israeli historians have admitted that there was more Israeli expulsion than was initially admitted.

I'm always eager to learn. So far, you haven't helped me in this regard.

You are joking, no? Smuggling in rockets for what purpose?

That is not the question. The question is whether smuggling of rockets, or smuggling in general, is a cease-fire violation, as you stated. It is not.

I don't think the starving Palestinians are calculating just how much money Hamas has been diverting. It's pretty obvious the billions in foreign aid is not going to building Gaza.

It's hard to build Gaza when Israel will not allow in building materials, now isn't it?

ETA: the point here is that if Hamas had sovereignty over their territory and Israel and Egypt closed border crossings, then Hamas could bring in supplies via ship or air. They cannot. Israel will not allow it. That demonstrates that Israel has maintained sovereignty over Gaza, and thus, despite your denials, remains the occupying power.

Israel would like to transfer responsibility for Gaza back to the Egyptians. Thus their lack of intervention when Hamas militants blew up the Egyptian border fence last year. The Egyptians, no fans of Hamas, have refused to take the problem off Israel's hands. One of the few smart decisions they have made.

The rockets are coming in from China and Iran and the only thing crude is the aim of the terrorists firing them into Israel.

Well, by my definition a rocket that cannot be aimed accurately and has limited explosive power is a crude rocket. You are welcome to yours.

Allow me to help you. I'm not allowed as yet to post URLs, so go to the children of gaza blog for a video, in Arabic, showing Palestinian children forcibly digging the tunnels.

googled "children of gaza blog" and still came up with nothing. Sorry.

I'm well-versed in UNSCR 242. Now, how is Israel in violation of it?

I have a better idea. Here is the text of 242.

The Security Council,

Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,

Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,

Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,

1. Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

2. Affirms further the necessity

(a) For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;

(b) For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;

(c) For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;

3. Requests the Secretary-General to designate a Special Representative to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with the States concerned in order to promote agreement and assist efforts to achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement in accordance with the provisions and principles in this resolution;

4. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the progress of the efforts of the Special Representative as soon as possible.

Please tell me how Israel is in compliance. You can start with 1. (i).

BTW, I am not trying to argue whether Israel should or should not be in full compliance. I am simply responding to your question about UN resolutions with which Israel does not comply. This is simply the lowest hanging fruit.

You neglected to mention Nasser closing the Straits of Tiran, which was an act of war. Eight Arab nations mobilizing against Israel? Under international law, a nation that is under threat of an offensive military action can take preemptive measures.

Fair enough. Then you will obviously concede that Israel blockading Gaza's coast is also an act of war, yes?

Past oppression? Hamas are oppressing Palestinians today. Hamas are so bad, Fatah now seem like saints in comparison.

So your current position is that even if two wrongs don't make a right that 3 does?

 

[Marc39]

Well, it IS stolen land by the very definition of property. In your examples, there just isn't any resistance anymore - and it's out of fashion to just shoot the "native terrorists" nowadays, while putting them into "reservations" still seems to be acceptable.

Anyway: The topic is about the Settlements. Did you watch the 60 minutes coverage about this very topic? And what do you think will happen if the Israeli Army will get the order to get the Israeli's out of the settlements? Will they obey? Or will the Knesset break apart about this question and the responses to it's execution - and with it, the whole Israeli society?

I doubt that there won't be any major resistance when it comes to leaving the settlements, especially in case of the "promised"-Fundies - who, in some cases do consider terrorism as well to get their will across.

In order for land to have been "stolen", it would have to have been legally owned in the first place. Most of Palestine during this period was the property of the Ottoman Empire with a small amount owned by absentee Arab landlords. The majority of "Palestinians" were tenant farmers and peasants. Zionist immigration to Palestine had been permitted by the Ottoman Turks since 1906 and for most of the Mandate period, affording them the rights of anyone else there, including the right to purchase land, which was the Zionists' method for acquiring land. If Arabs living in Palestine at that time did not own land, then they had no property rights. No land was stolen.

 

[Thunder]

many of the Palestinians have legal documents proving they own land. Israel doesn't care. it was "given" to them by God.

Israel itself did a study and found that a good 1/3rd of the settlements are built on Palestinian private property.

are you saying the Israeli govt. is lying???

 

[Marc39]

many of the Palestinians have legal documents proving they own land.

If they remained in Israel during the '48 war, they would be part of the nearly 2 million Arab population in Israel today.

 

[gdnp]

How do closed borders indicate an occupying power? When Israel pulled from Gaza, they only controlled the borders they shared with Gaza. After Hamas seized power, Israel instituted a naval blockade in an effort to control the flow of arms to a terrorist regime.

Does Israel only block the flow of arms into Gaza, or do they also block the importation of food, clothing, medicine, and building supplies? This is not simply a military blockade.

No.

So you believe the settlements Israel is building in the West Bank are freely accessible to Jews and Palestinians alike? Can you really be this ignorant?

The Qassam rockets are becoming more sophisticated. Since last year, Hamas is also using Katyusha and Grad rockets, which I'm sure are more expensive than Qassams.

And yet the majority fall into empty fields.

Don't get me wrong: the Palestinians should not be firing rockets into Israel of any type. And Israel is right to be concerned that the Palestinians are acquiring rockets of greater range and accuracy. But I have yet to see evidence that the Palestinians have rockets that can target anything smaller than a town. They are still pretty crude in their capability.

Hamas is the elected government of Gaza and thus is responsible to stop the rocket attacks, whether they are government-sponsored or not.

Well, I would say that they are responsible to make a reasonable effort to stop the rocket attacks. They have other responsibilities, such as maintaining law and order, rebuilding government infrastructure and command and control capabilities destroyed during Cast Lead, feeding people, providing health care, as well as identifying, capturing, and trying those who collaborated with the Israelis (yes, this is a legitimate activity). At this point Hamas' ability to reign in Fatah-linked terrorist groups that would like nothing better than to see Hamas fail so they can restore their corrupt regime has been seriously degraded.

 

[mortimer]

Does Israel only block the flow of arms into Gaza, or do they also block the importation of food, clothing, medicine, and building supplies? This is not simply a military blockade.

Israel has no responsibility to allow any goods through their border with Gaza. The naval blockade... perhaps if the elected government of Gaza would take better care not to allow arms shipments to be smuggled in disguised as humanitarian aid, the naval blockade would not be necessary. I agree that Gaza ought to be able to bring in non-military shipments by sea, but that's not going to happen until the arms shipments and rocket launches stop. Remember, this blockade was only put into place after Hamas, a terrorist organization, took over Gaza in a bloody coup.

So you believe the settlements Israel is building in the West Bank are freely accessible to Jews and Palestinians alike? Can you really be this ignorant?

Of course not. But Palestinians are not citizens of Israel.

And yet the majority fall into empty fields.

That wasn't the point. The point is that Hamas is spending money that could be spent feeding it's people on rockets, rockets that are getting increasingly more complex (and expensive).

Well, I would say that they are responsible to make a reasonable effort to stop the rocket attacks.

And if their "reasonable" efforts are not stopping the rocket attacks, Israel has every right to take action. Which they did.