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Heiwa's Pizza Box Experiment

nicepants

Graduate Poster
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Jan 8, 2007
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In another thread, Heiwa brought up a rather entertaining experiment he used to attempt to simulate the WTC collapses using pizza boxes.

MAS' plastic tray experiment is a very good start to debunk the Bazant hypothesis of an upper tower block (B below) driving a global collapse of a lower tower block (A below) due to gravity only.

Another way is to use 60x60x3.7 cms pizza delivery cardboard boxes as follows:

Each cardboard box represents a WTC1 floor/perimeter walls in scale 1/100. The flat bottom of the box represents the floor and the sides of the pizza box represent the wall columns. The top lock of the box is removed.

Some adjustements of box sides may have to be done to model the increased (buckling and total) strength of the walls at bottom versus the top.

Thus you need 110 pizza boxes. You stack 95 of those boxes on top of one another and glue them together (to represent the butt welding of the wall columns). Each pizza box is evidently loaded with a suitable pizza, so that the compressive stress in the walls becomes representative (e.g. 30% of the buckling stress all the way).

The result is a 351.5 cms high tower of pizza boxes that you glue to the bottom support, e.g. a floor. Let's call this tower A.

The remaining 15 boxes are similarily glued together and loaded with pizzas to represent the 55.5 cms high upper block, we call it B, that will drop down on the pizza box tower A. You evidently fit a roof and a little mast on B (the antenna of WTC1) and why not attach a US flag on it?

Thus you simply have to hold B 3.7 cms (one floor level) above A and then drop B on A to simulate the initiation of the destruction of WTC1 in scale 1/100. Nothing happens at impact of course and the reason is that gravity acceleration follows another scale factor than simple length. So you have to increase the drop height 3.7 cms to a suitable value x so that the energy applied at impact becomes representative that knowledgeable JREF members easily can calculate. Otherwise just ask me.

So now we re-do the experiment with B dropping on A from height x.

According Bazant A shall now be crushed down (destroyed) at free fall speed/acceleration by B and the pizzas in A shall become dust, while the box walls of A crack as spaghetti and the thin box floors of A drop down. When A is completely destroyed (95 floors are stacked on top of one another in the footprint and the pieces of walls are spread around the foot print and there is a big dust cloud of ex-pizzas all around) the top block B is crushed-up in turn and disappears like A. The only thing that remains is the roof of B and the mast and the flag! Nothing dropped on that, evidently, so it should remain intact.

The good news is that the above will not happen at all (no ex-pizza dust!) and it demonstrates that the Bazant hypothesis does not work for a 1/100 scale model of WTC1. Actually it does not work for a full scale tower either, as B cannot crush down A at impact and remain intact.

The simple reason is that free energy E (or force F for that matter) at impact B against A is not just simply applied 100% to the top box of A as assumed by Bazant to initiate a global collapse of A, while B remains intact. Evidently only 50% of the energy E is applied to A, while the other 50% is applied to B. Same for the force F. Energy E is just F times distance - compression of A and B at/after impact.

This phenomenon will be seen in the pizza box experiment described above. You will see A and B deform at impact like accordeons and then bounce back, i.e. E will only elastically deform A and B. Or, if E is big enough, plastic deformation starts after deformation the same amount (50/50) of energy E is applied to A and B at impact, you will see B completely destroyed, while a large part of A remains intact.

Reason for this is that B is much smaller (and weaker) than A, and that A can absorb more elastic deformation energy than B before plastic deformation (destruction) takes place.

WTC1 is a good example: A (95 boxes) is 6.33 times bigger than B (15 boxes + flag), so A can absorb at least 6.33 more elastic strain energy than B at impact, before destruction (plastic deformation) starts. As the amount of energy is equally applied to A and B, you could in fact see B be destroyed while A is still just elastically deformed.

In reality (WTC1 full scale and Pizza tower model scale) and the fact that it takes some time for force F to transmit through A and B at impact, both A and B (apart from being completely elastically deformed) will be plastically deformed (really damaged) adjacent to the impact area, but still, as A is much bigger than B, B will suffer proportionally more damage than A.

Bazant in his devious hypothesis assumes of course that B remains intact all the time (while A is crushed down), but there is no foundation for that (or for many other things regarding 9/11 that are just fantasy).

Perhaps others will disagree....but I find that discussion of this "experiment" warrants a topic unto itself, and thus, I have a few questions for Heiwa:

1 - What happens when you scale your experiment up to full size?

2 - Do you think that the results will vary depending on the materials used, or the size of the model?
 
Shouldn't the pizza boxes be filled with flammable material and have several of them be on fire?
 
Pfft. No pizza box has ever collapsed from fire.
 
In another thread, Heiwa brought up a rather entertaining experiment he used to attempt to simulate the WTC collapses using pizza boxes.



Perhaps others will disagree....but I find that discussion of this "experiment" warrants a topic unto itself, and thus, I have a few questions for Heiwa:

1 - What happens when you scale your experiment up to full size?

2 - Do you think that the results will vary depending on the materials used, or the size of the model?

Among many other factors Heiwa needs a material that can accurately scale down the strength of steel to the size he wants to model. Mackey brought this up rather well in the thread this originated from. My favorite analogy is the Hercules beetle and your average joe. The beetle might be able to carry 20 times its own weight but the average joe can barely lift double his own. It's about proportion... Good luck getting Heiwa to accurately measure that though :\

The results can vary based on the same material depending on how he builds the model, there's a reason why truss members in your average warehouse aren't solid chunks of steel (I'm referring to these (an application of this type of structural member)in particular for those curious)...

As for what card board boxes are supposed to demonstrate however... ever since I saw Richard Gage experiment with them I go through a face_palm every time somone tries to validate something through something that's simply not scaled accurately... or for that matter scaled to even a material with scaled down workable sizes
 
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I believe my post from the other thread is warranted here:

I am really trying to comprehend how grown adults do not see the flaws in these absolutely RIDICULOUS "experiments". The WTC was 110 stories high, comprised of steel, aluminum, drywall, nuts, bolts, etc. and weighed thousands upon thousands of tons. To attempt to scale this kind of structure down using cinder blocks, pizza boxes, trays, or any other silly item completely unrelated to the towers construction is almost grounds for being admitted to a mental institute. I have said this before, but if I was an alien race flying by the planet earth and observed human being attempting to scale down a massive skyscraper using pizza boxes, I would obliterate the entire planet instantly to ensure none of this stupidity would leave the solar system and infect other galaxies.

Heiwa and mark alan, you should be ashamed of yourselves. I don't know what is more sad though, the people who create these experiments or the ones who believe them. I really hope pardalis is right and these people are purposely creating these stupid things knowing damn well that they are flawed.
 
Wasn't there that chicken wire experiment someone created? He had the portion above the impact floors pulled to a 90 degree angle to the bottom and claimed that if it holds in his scale model, it should have held in real life. Wannabe-engineers...

:rolleyes:
 
In another thread, Heiwa brought up a rather entertaining experiment he used to attempt to simulate the WTC collapses using pizza boxes.



Perhaps others will disagree....but I find that discussion of this "experiment" warrants a topic unto itself, and thus, I have a few questions for Heiwa:

1 - What happens when you scale your experiment up to full size?

2 - Do you think that the results will vary depending on the materials used, or the size of the model?

Answer to 1. If you scale up the Pizza Tower 100 times and adjust the material you will get WTC1.

Answer to 2. Evidently when you scale up the Pizza Tower 100 you replace the model paper floors and walls with concrete floors and steel perimeter columns.

But the purpose of the model was just to test the Bazant hypothesis, i.e. when a little bit of a top of a structure drops on the rest of the structure, the top part becomes - magically - superstrong and the rest of the structure below becomes very weak and - globally collapses in 100 000's of pieces and a cloud of dust. The Bazant hypothesis is independent of scale and apply to all structures (of uniform density of course and if deformation only takes place in one dimension and if Newtons laws are not applied).
As the Pizza Tower 4 metres or 400 metres high does not react according to Bazant's theory, I conclude the Bazant ideas are simply wrong.
 
Answer to 1. If you scale up the Pizza Tower 100 times and adjust the material you will get WTC1.

Answer to 2. Evidently when you scale up the Pizza Tower 100 you replace the model paper floors and walls with concrete floors and steel perimeter columns.
So if you take the Pizza Tower and make the size of WTC1, then change the materials for those of WTC1, you get WTC1? Well, yes. But that doesn't make Pizza Tower a good model of WTC1. What you need to show (with math) is that Pizza Tower responds in the same way as WTC1 does to the forces you are interested in.

But the purpose of the model was just to test the Bazant hypothesis, i.e. when a little bit of a top of a structure drops on the rest of the structure, the top part becomes - magically - superstrong and the rest of the structure below becomes very weak and - globally collapses in 100 000's of pieces and a cloud of dust.
That is a strawman version, and your thought experiment (because that's what it is, charitably) does not test the hypothesis.

The Bazant hypothesis is independent of scale and apply to all structures (of uniform density of course and if deformation only takes place in one dimension and if Newtons laws are not applied).
Is the Bazant hypothesis independent of the characteristics of the materials too? Does the momentum of a falling floor of the WTC scale down to the same as that of a falling pizza box?
As the Pizza Tower 4 metres or 400 metres high does not react according to Bazant's theory, I conclude the Bazant ideas are simply wrong.
Lacking ane mathematical analysis on your part, I conclude you pulled your conclusion out of your ass.
 
Pfft. No pizza box has ever collapsed from fire.
no, but ive had one collapse from steam before, and the cardboard got in the cheese and it just really sucked

Answer to 1. If you scale up the Pizza Tower 100 times and adjust the material you will get WTC1.
so wait, where is the core in the pizza box? does the box top have trusses to support it? seems like you need to adjust a bit more than materials unless you need to deliver 110 2-acre pizzas
 
Do the pizza boxes have that little plastic thingy in them to keep the middle from collapsing?
 
Answer to 1. If you scale up the Pizza Tower 100 times and adjust the material you will get WTC1.

Heiwa, you are being stupid again. What if I used paper machet to recreate the towers? If I scale it up and change the materials, then yes I do indeed get an exact replica of the towers. Did you even read what you typed. Thank you for the new sig.
 
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What if the pizza inside was stuffed crust pizza? Wouldn't that throw all the balance off?
 
As the Pizza Tower 4 metres or 400 metres high does not react according to Bazant's theory, I conclude the Bazant ideas are simply wrong.

Hiewa, you missed the part that if you put garbage in you'll get garbage out. Which is what you did.

Enough of your stale Leaning Tower of Pizza box.
 
Answer to 1. If you scale up the Pizza Tower 100 times and adjust the material you will get WTC1.


If you scale up a duck and change its DNA, you get an elephant. Therefore... a duck is just a scaled down version of an elephant. :rolleyes:
 
Anyone for KFC?

Those buckets are crush-proof.
 
what percentage of the pizza is supported by the stacked perimeter edges of the pizza box if a pizza box lid support plastc thingy is used? and whats the distribution or percentage of cardboard vs/ plastic in this leaning tower of pizza?
 

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