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FLT 77 Flight Recorder Data - Pilots for Truth

In this case, it's here.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=53

"Tony" was simply Rob Balsamo (from pft) coming back again with his same lame, debunked crap.

But, he was banned for being a sockpuppet of another previously banned member.
He only comes back for me. I am his hero.
Tell us Beachnut, why were you taken off the line and assigned to fly a desk?
My last job was flying in the USAF was in single engine piston planes. I flew in single engine planes from California to Washington state between the Cascades it was surrealistic in the weather! I had a handheld GPS to back up my VOR/DME. As the VOR varied 3 or 4 degrees I flew just below the freezing level with oxygen bottles solo. It was interesting to see the Cascade mountains up close, in the weather. Flying the KC-135 was easier.

Yes I had a desk, but I flew as much as I could; and I ran our units flying program. I was the instructor and evaluator (check pilot) for California, Oregon, Washington, Alaska, and Hawaii; what a great job.

I was not taken off the line! I was placed on the line. I love flying, it is easy, hard, and fun. They paid us to do fly!

 
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I actually started this post a long time ago. I went back to it today and discovered an interesting conversation between Beechnut and Tony Soprano. Apparently Tony was banned. I am new to this forum and hadn't seen this before so I'm curious as to whether there's any way to tell why Tony was banned, his posts seem reasonably polite.

It seems to me that the issue continues to be whether you can rely on the data coming out of the flight recorder to be available in real time and accurate under the conditions - speed, altitude and rate of descent - which 77 was experiencing at the time of the crash. I personally haven't found anything which is available within the public domain which gives that key information. Given that, I think that you cannot use the FDR to prove or to disprove the official explanations to the extent one might wish. That cuts both ways. I'm really disappointed that there isn't a full article somewhere on the subject with a named author with appropriate credentials.
I am sorry, I call him nuts all the time. I have listened to his interviews and because I am a pilot I was interested in why a person makes up stuff, or tries to imply so many lies. Actually he was doing the usual stuff he does; he takes quotes out of context and uses them to support his agenda to make implications of flight 77 not hitting the Pentagon, without saying 77 did not hit the Pentagon. If you have listened to his interviews, he actually presents his information which says 77 did not hit the Pentagon because it was too high.

He takes the impact time as the time the NTSB said it was; the trouble being the NTSB never finished anything on 77 to show anything, except the facts the FBI wanted. Therefore it appears the NTSB did not finish their animations and never did an accident investigation because it was not an accident. So the NTSB did release under the FOIA a working copy of an animation of 77 approaching the Pentagon. Tony, JDX, Rob, uses this to grow CT ideas on 9/11. The NTSB video shows 77 heading towards the Pentagon at 20 degrees off. This due to the fact the Pentagon was plance on the map but the data and map did not line up due to the difference in magnetic heading and true heading. This gives an error of 20 degrees. So JDX, Tony, Rob, uses this to fuel his north of the Citgo crap or some other weird ideas on the subject.

A few idiots come out of the woodworks to make up junk about the FDR. One guy did an analysis of heading vs the INS coordinate heading he calculated and came up with the idea the FDR was faked, but he has no idea that the INS is changing due to errors and VOR updates. So the INS position information changes due to updates from the VOR which the idiot thinks are faked data!

The FDR verifies that 77 left the proper airport and approached the Pentagon. The FDR decoded by p4t verifies the FDR was 77 because they have 24 hours of data showing where 77 was for previous flights. Ironic@!

The FDR was damage severely in the impact, and data is missing. It takes time to record the data, and that time is the same as the data per second gathered. Plus the FDR was a model with a solid state chip; it is slow! Think back to 1991 when 77 first flew, the chips used to store data were slow and not as fast as data transfer now.

If you want to figure out more about 77's FDR go to the guys who built it and ask them. They might not tell you the limitations that will help understand if there is 4 to 6 seconds of data not stored in the chip; or there is a back log of data in the FDR system buffers that never were compressed and saved at impact time.

The facts are 77 did hit the Pentagon; thousand of pieces of evidences prove that fact; even the FDR was found in the Pentagon. So JDX, Tony, Rob is making up lies.

Therefore JDX, Tony, Rob is nuts.

You can easily see the NTSB animation ground representation of the Pentagon was positioned in error; dumb Rob tries to make something up about it! You can see the FDR is never used for what Rob thinks it should be. The FDR is to help solve accidents, not where a planes hits! New standards seem to imply older solid state units (chips) did not store data in a manner to save several final seconds in severe accidents. Rob and his group have the data to confirm this statement but failed to connect the dots.

Poor Rob wants to interview other people so he can cherry pick quotes to use to support his ideas. Go sign up at p4t and see how nuts one group can be.

 
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Since Aldo posted a link to this thread over at LCF I decided to bring back this blast from the past.

< http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93401 >

Along with this.

< http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85833 >

Now I know most of the "skeptics" over at LCF will not think to question Aldo, Craig or Rob on this. But I figured what the heck, maybe someone will. Not that I'm holding my breath.

P.S. Hey Aldo, how long does it take to analyze "conflicts"? I would have thought a bunch of hard hitting investigators like you, Craig and Rob would have figured this out much quicker than five months.
 
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I often wonder the very same thing. Has any truther ever been known to answer this question? (And saying "they" i.e. the media are in on it doesn't address the futility of arguing with strangers on internet forums.)



The notorious fraud Craig Ranke, who posted here as "Lyte Trip," was finally trapped on one the threads devoted to his insane Pentagon "flyover" delusion. It was established that the number of actual witnesses to this imaginary event is zero. Ranke was hammered with questions about what he planned to do with his "evidence." He admitted eventually that he had no intention of ever taking it to a real news outlet because they're all in on it.

Buy his DVD and learn Da Twoof!
 
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Since Aldo posted a link to this thread over at LCF I decided to bring back this blast from the past.

So bizarre. Rob (presumably) made a post repeating things that have been debunked for months. Aldo posts a victory thread. We've debunked these lies dozens of times. Dozens. Every single one of them. They don't have a single unanswered claim. They haven't for months.

And they wonder why we are bored.
 
As others have pointed out AA77 was hijacked between 0851 and 0854 and it crashed at 0837. Your flight time is off by at least 12 minutes.




Indianapolis ARTCC had simultaneous total loss of radar return and communication. By the way it went "missing" and was suspected crashed over Ohio, not Kentucky.




It was only "invisible" for 9 minutes. The reason it was "invisible" was because the preferred coverage Long Range Radar site for the radar sort box in which it was flying had only a secondary surveillance radar which requires cooperation from an aircraft transponder.




An aircraft with a deactivated transponder can be tracked on Primary Surveillance Radar which works by receiving a radio signal bounced directly off the hull of the aircraft. However Air Traffic Controllers can only see such returns if their Primary Radar coverage is turned on, and if the Radar Data Processor is sending primary information to their screen.

If you have primary coverage available where the transponder is turned off the controller can simply flick a switch and the primary return will immediately appear where the secondary return previously was. Then you can continue to closely track that primary return and keep track of the aircraft.

However if the transponder is turned off in an area without a primary feed, the primary return cannot be picked up. This is what happened with AA77. When AA77 reappeared on primary radar it appeared in a place no one was looking for it, and promptly entered another ARTCCs airspace.

By now, of course, the aircraft could be anywhere, and controllers turning on their primary radar coverage are faced with dozens of primary-only returns on dozens of different screens. There's no way to work out which is AA77, and no way to track every single primary return at once.




At 0908 Indianapolis ARTCC contacted the USAF Search And Rescue Coordination Centre at Langley Air Force Base and reported that an American Airlines 757, flight 77, was suspected crashed in southern Ohio. The SAR centre is responsible for coordinating all search and rescue efforts inside the United States. A Search and Rescue mission was immediately activated to look for the crash site.




At about 0920 Indianapolis ARTCC learned of the other hijackings in Boston and New York airspace, and immediately reassessed the status of AA77. At 0921 Indianapolis ARTCC notified the national Air Traffic Control System Command Centre (ATCSCC) in Herndon, Virginia that they suspected AA77 was a hijacking, and may be heading east.

The ATCSCC immediately told Washington ARTCC and Cleveland ARTCC to start looking for AA77 on primary radar, as well as Dulles TRACON.

At 0932 Dulles TRACON detected a fast moving low altitude primary-only radar return heading east within 6 miles of the White House.




AA77 did not enter restricted airspace at any time during its journey.




AA77 flew past neither the Capitol nor the White House. The section of the Pentagon that was hit was called Wedge 1, and the impact area crossed diagonally so that the exit hole was just across on the very edge of Wedge 2. On the morning of 9/11 Wedge 1 was 85% occupied and Wedge 2 was 40% occupied. Approximately 2,500 people were in the immediate impact area.




Osama Bin Laden chose the Pentagon as a target because it was symbolic of US military power.

The White House was initially proposed as a target however Mohammed Atta concluded after an aerial recon that it would be too difficult to hit due to its small size and the surrounding geography. United 93 was intended to hit the US Capitol Building.




The flight path of AA77 was determined by the Flight Data Recorder which is incidentally what this thread is about. The FDR records aircraft altitude as well as rates of ascent and descent.

AA77s final flight path was tracked by Potomac TRACON (usually referred to as Dulles TRACON) which takes primary radar feeds from a number of ASR-9 radar sites. The ASR-9 is a short range primary surveillance radar that does not have height finding ability.

AA77 did not dive 7,000ft towards the Pentagon in the last moments. It descended 6,300ft over a period of 3 minutes and 18 seconds before descending a final 2,000ft in about 30 seconds.




The FBI was in possession of a total of 85 videos that FBI Special Agent Jacqueline Maguire determined might be relevant to the FOIA request for videos of the impact of AA77. Of those:

56 did not show the Pentagon building, the Pentagon crash site, or the impact of AA77.
16 showed the Pentagon building but neither the crash site nor the impact of AA77.
12 Showed the Pentagon building and the crash site, but only after the impact had occurred.
1 Video showed the Pentagon building, the crash site, and the impact of AA77.

Maguire states that she did not find any evidence that the FBI were in possession of a video taken from the Sheraton Hotel. Videos from the Pentagon security gate camera (which showed the actual impact), from the CITGO Station and from the Doubletree Hotel were released.

See the thing is why all the secrecy about the tapes then. Why not just show them and shut everyone asking up....There is very little evidence of a plane hitting the pentagon....There must have been one clear video showing the plane crash....if in fact there was a crash.....
 
There is very little evidence of a plane hitting the pentagon....

This, newbies and lurkers, is a very old argument. Look back at threads here where the Pentagon evidence was discussed. There are mountains of evidence that not just any plane, but that Flight 77 specifically hit the Pentagon. ATC radar evidence, the plethora of debris, the DNA evidence, the eyewitnesses, several of whom actually witnessed the impact directly.

If wtcconspiracy stays true to form, he'll ask for examples of such evidence. Despite all the previous threads dedicated to this subject.

At any rate, I just wanted to illuminate one of the ways the conspiracy peddlers argue. They pretend there's "little evidence" of any of the parts of the narrative they wish to dispute, which is an assertion in contradiction to reality.
 
See the thing is why all the secrecy about the tapes then. Why not just show them and shut everyone asking up....There is very little evidence of a plane hitting the pentagon....There must have been one clear video showing the plane crash....if in fact there was a crash.....

Well, the FBI has specifically stated that there is NO OTHER VIDEO which shows the crash. Obviously, you choose not to believe them. OK, they release blank video and you accuse them of erasing it or faking it. What's the point?

Tell you what...you are NOT going to convince any rational person here that AA77 did not crash into the Pentagon. But, it really doesn't matter much about us here. The people you really need to convince are those who lost loved ones in that crash. Why don't you tell them there was no crash. I dare say you'd also have a hard time convincing them or convincing the THOUSANDS of rescue workers who cleaned it up and the HUNDREDS of military folks who picked up all of those little bitty pieces of human body parts containing the DNA used to identify all of the passengers on AA77. Yep, go convince them and see how far you get with your stoopid little conspiracy....
 
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See the thing is why all the secrecy about the tapes then. Why not just show them and shut everyone asking up....
You know the CT lons would just claim they are faked, as they have already with the ones that were shown.

There is very little evidence of a plane hitting the pentagon....
Except, of course, for all the wreckage of Flight 77 recovered from the scene, the fact that Flight 77 didn't show up anywhere else, the remains (identified with DNA) of the passengers, crew, and hijackers recovered at the scene, the FDR's from Flight 77 recovered from the scene, the hundreds of eyewitnesses who saw it crash there, the hundreds of firefighters and other rescue workers who saw the plane wreckage... etc etc. It takes a special kind of stupid to disregard all that because there isn't a clear video of it. Of course, there is a faction of the "truth" movement that claims the many crystal-clear videos of the planes hitting the WTC are faked. In other words, with people as collectively stupid as those in the "truth" movement, no amount of evidence will be sufficient.

There must have been one clear video showing the plane crash....if in fact there was a crash.....
And the whistle went Woooooooo!
 
...There is very little evidence of a plane hitting the pentagon.....if in fact there was a crash.....
As of today, no one has discredited the thousands of pieces of evidence proving 77 hit the Pentagon; talk will not do it, lies will not do, and the proof is in. Failure is 9/11 truth and the lack of logic and rational thought.

Not one person has been able to show 77 did not hit the Pentagon. Not a thing new but talk and made up ideas by 9/11 truth.
 
As of today, no one has discredited the thousands of pieces of evidence proving 77 hit the Pentagon; talk will not do it, lies will not do, and the proof is in. Failure is 9/11 truth and the lack of logic and rational thought.

Not one person has been able to show 77 did not hit the Pentagon. Not a thing new but talk and made up ideas by 9/11 truth.

One thing I will say is. Yes there are witnesses who saw a large american airlines plane hit pentagon....But there are some who saw a small private jet....With a plane flying as low as flt 77 was can the two really be mistaken....

And who exactly did the DNA testing on these parts....

There is evidence to show 77 didnt hit pentagon, although those who believe the official theory will ignore this...

Ben
 
But you won't be presenting any, will you? :rolleyes:

hmm i actually will....

Let see.....how about the government claim that cctv cameras nearest to point of impact were destroyed by the crash....well ok but why is this relevant as the video tapes or digital video images recorded by these cameras were not stored in camera....so where is the footage....why was all the DOT camera footage confiscated...And how if this was such a surprise attack were FBI agents at the gas station within minutes to confiscate tapes....The fact is that these tapes show what really happened and they dont want us to see that....Then how come as the plane was fast approaching the Pentagon, According to Mineta testimony, Cheney gave orders not to shoot down the plane...some say that this was not flt 77 being talked about, but why would the VP say not to shoot down an unidentified aircraft approaching DC after what happened in NY.....
 
See the thing is why all the secrecy about the tapes then. Why not just show them and shut everyone asking up....There is very little evidence of a plane hitting the pentagon....There must have been one clear video showing the plane crash....if in fact there was a crash.....


Hmmm, a thoughtful and detailed post from Gumboot in response to a request for information, but instead of engaging with it you hand wave it away and move on to your next objection. In the post that Gumboot answered you said you "Would appreciate any sensible answer not insults as I got last time I discussed here." Your post is a disappointing response, Ben. Did you read any of the material in the link that I gave you on the first page of this thread? Because your post shows a degree of wilful ignorance about the video tapes and the vast (not "very little") amount of evidence that is available.
 
The fact is that these tapes show what really happened

I love this. Lets run with it for a second. Let's imagine what is being put forward by troofers here in their conspiracy scenario. A hijacked jet is barrelling towards the Pentagon but then jumps over it and...er...disappears. Meanwhile a missile hits the Pentagon. Anyone scratching their heads yet?

Oh yes, and then an enormous cover-up has to be done to fake DNA evidence, jet wreckage, the media, let's not forget the media, and to top it all disposing of Flight 77 with its crew and passengers.

And all this to fit into some crazy conspiracy idea. It beggars belief.

In England we have a thing called 'care in the community'.

Bananaman.
 
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hmm i actually will....

Let see.....how about the government claim that cctv cameras nearest to point of impact were destroyed by the crash....well ok but why is this relevant as the video tapes or digital video images recorded by these cameras were not stored in camera....so where is the footage....why was all the DOT camera footage confiscated...And how if this was such a surprise attack were FBI agents at the gas station within minutes to confiscate tapes....The fact is that these tapes show what really happened and they dont want us to see that....
You're not very good at this, are you? Do you know what "evidence" is? Do you have any that something other than Flight 77 hit the Pentagon?

Then how come as the plane was fast approaching the Pentagon, According to Mineta testimony, Cheney gave orders not to shoot down the plane...
This is a flat-out lie, about what we've come to experct from "truthers".

some say that this was not flt 77 being talked about, but why would the VP say not to shoot down an unidentified aircraft approaching DC after what happened in NY.....
Actually, he did order it to be shot down, and that is 100% supported by Mineta's testimony.

I take it you won't actually be presenting positive evidence that something other than Flight 77 hit the Pentagon then, will you?
 
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One thing I will say is. Yes there are witnesses who saw a large american airlines plane hit pentagon....But there are some who saw a small private jet....With a plane flying as low as flt 77 was can the two really be mistaken....

And who exactly did the DNA testing on these parts....

There is evidence to show 77 didnt hit pentagon, although those who believe the official theory will ignore this...

Ben
No there is zero evidence to show 77 did not hit; and you have failed to present it yet. Not even close yet.

You forgot the DNA, FDR, RADAR data, all prove 77 hit the Pentagon because the entire plane was there. Even the fireball is part of the evidence 77 hit the pentagon.

Not a great idea to hung up on bs trivial non evidence, hearsay stuff.
 
You're not very good at this, are you? Do you know what "evidence" is? Do you have any that something other than Flight 77 hit the Pentagon?


This is a flat-out lie, about what we've come to experct from "truthers".


Actually, he did order it to be shot down, and that is 100% supported by Mineta's testimony.

I take it you won't actually be presenting positive evidence that something other than Flight 77 hit the Pentaghon then, will you?

What part of Minetas testimony says he ordered the jet to be shot down.....there was no order to shoot the jet down....or it would have been....

Ben
 
One thing I will say is. Yes there are witnesses who saw a large american airlines plane hit pentagon....But there are some who saw a small private jet....With a plane flying as low as flt 77 was can the two really be mistaken....

And who exactly did the DNA testing on these parts....

There is evidence to show 77 didnt hit pentagon, although those who believe the official theory will ignore this...

Ben

My brain stopped for a second when I read DNA testing for airplane parts. I showed it to my wife and had to do cpr.
 
My brain stopped for a second when I read DNA testing for airplane parts. I showed it to my wife and had to do cpr.

I think if you read the post properly you would see it was in response to another post...If you took the time to go back to that post you would then see the poster mentioned DNA on BODY parts.....I was referring to that....How could you actually think I meant DNA testing on airplane parts....oh and by the way i didnt say airplane parts.....I said PARTS......this meant.....BODY......
 

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