Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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You really should start a blogg..

Too much work and responsibility. It would be flooded with postings by dullards who believe. I'd have to respond to them or censor/delete like Loren Coleman. Besides, who like to receive relentless hacking and denials of service blitzes?
 
Drew -- The official story is that Patterson and Gimlin were out searching the Ape Canyon area when Al Hodgson phoned Mrs. Patterson and told her about new tracks found at Bluff Creek. Problem is that Jerry Merritt said Patterson didn't have a phone at the time. He used Jerry Merritt's phone, so for Mrs. Patterson to answer a call from Al Hodgson would have been difficult.

My take on it is this: Wallace and others got into the habit of faking prints. It was fun to see people like Green and Sanderson write articles and bend over backwards trying to prove their authenticity. As Wallace's cousin said, "All we had to do was leave tracks and let people find them."

Patterson worked on his "movie" with Merritt in May 1967 and then the two of them got a ton of money from the Radfords and traveled to Los Angeles. They tried to get funding from Nudie Cohn to finish their movie. That didn't happen.

At some point Patterson must have wound up paying a visit or phoning his creature suit contact and paid for the Bigfoot suit to be made.

By June Patterson was required by contract to repay the Radford loan. He never paid back a dime. Nor did he return the camera he'd also failed to pay for. He just kept on going and trying to make his Bigfoot scheme pay off.

In July Gimlin approached Heironimus and asked him to wear a suit that was being prepared.

In August and September 1967 Patterson, and sometimes Patterson & Gimlin, were supposedly on Bigfoot hunts. They traveled back and forth between the Bluff Creek hot-spot area and Ape Canyon. This is when the footprints showed up.

In 1964 Patterson just happened to stop off at Bluff Creek while on his way to Los Angeles and lo and behold tracks appear - the infamous PAT GRAVES footprint. Like Marx, Freeman and Wallace wherever Patterson goes Bigfoot just happens to show up and he is there to confirm it.

So the tracks were laid down at Bluff Creek in advance. Green shows up to check them out and confirm them. Gimlin and Patterson showed up later and did the same. Then the film was made and more tracks laid down.


William Parcher -- Those images of the prints you posted should make anyone with an open mind understand that Wallace was responsible for those early prints. He even made totally different types of prints. Some looked like extended bear tracks (this is the double-balled hourglass type) as well as the infamous Crew slanted but different double balled foot, and let's don't forget the original skinny but long human footprint. All of these types showed up around wherever he was and were found in his basement cabinet.

What I cannot understand is how Meldrum and others can keep using the wooden feet of Wallace as some kind of proof that Patterson's Bluff Creek prints could not be faked. All they have to do is put on a pair of floppy oversized rubber feet molded in the shape of the Patty tracks and walk in the mud. Mid-tarsal breaks are caused by rubber feet. It's truly simplistic. I've done it myself.


This PIC shows how a human foot fits into a big rubber foot and the arch creates the Mid-Tarsal break. The other PIC shows the print of the left foot of a human walking on the beach next to Patty's print.

This works if you wear your boots with heels inside the rubber feet as well. The rubber bends in front of the heel right where the human arch is. This is what forms these shapes. I've seen it happen over and over on film sets. Amazing that a scientist cannot seem to comprehend this and prefers to go with an imaginary cartoon foot explanation.

Avindair -- That "Dfoot hasn't made a complete suit" nonsense is why I had to show them they could not judge what was and wasn't a suit because of their pre-conceived belief that the film had to be real.

You'd think (as with the rubber foot demo above) that they would step back and take a look at how they reacted to my showing them Patty on a different background. All went out of their way to tell me how it wasn't even close to the PG film - when that is exactly what it was.

Instead, they go into a tirade based on things I never said. This is why merely showing them a suit similar to Patty will never do. A brand new hoax might be possible, but you'd have to do it in a way different from the Patty suit to be effective. Patty in clear focus would not stand up today. Stiff breasts won't do. Separating necklines would be spotted by someone. You'd have to go one step beyond what Patterson did - then reveal the hoax and listen to the ensuing tirades that result.

This is why Gimlin will go to his grave saying the film was real. I don't think he has it in him to own up to what has gone on - even for his wife's sake. He's too afraid of the nutjobs out there. I don't blame him.

mangler -- I would not be concerned with what a guy from Utah who has been hired a few times to work for a make-up crew has to say. This is what Rick Baker himself says: (and he has more knowledge on this subject than others) He and Bob Burns were asked to sit and watch the film by some people making a Bigfoot program. This was in the early 70's I believe. Within five minutes Baker said this could ONLY be a man in a suit and nothing more due to many of the things I've outlined in the past. The Bigfooters didn't want to hear that and they moved on looking for someone to say something nice so they could use that as a "quote from Hollywood experts". That's how it works.

If one of the hoaxers involved (such as Chambers or Janos) tells them what they want to hear they'll lap it up. If Wallace tells Sanderson that he's really upset about these prints showing up on his work sites and is desperate to get to the bottom of the mystery, then Sanderson and Green will write that Wallace is "a pragmatic no-nonsense businessman who thinks someone might be trying to ruin his contracts". This is lapped up.

You can always find someone who'll say something, anything, that proponents want to hear. Even if it's just to be kind. The fact is that ALL of the top level creature suit designers in Hollywood (not Utah) know that the film shows a guy walking in a simple suit. It only takes them five minutes of close up study to see this as it did with Baker.



This is the foot of one of Janos' ape suits that he made in the late 50's. I took this video the other day. Dermal ridges - no problem.

This is the famous chimp head made by Janos that he wore on THE OUTER LIMITS and BEACH BLANKET BINGO. My friend wore it recently on a show for the National Geographic Channel.


The mouth opens and close just like the STAR TREK head used to make Patty. It feels like a helmet when you put it on - exactly as described by Heironimus.

Inside the typical "helmet head" of the 60's you'd find something like this. The tiny metal band is the hinge for the jaw. Your chin fits into the chin of the mask and this opens and close the mouth. The small white button can be added to make the upper lip move up independently by pressing it with the tongue. This is the inside of Janos' Chimp head from the 50's. Lot's of Ape heads from the 30's were made this way too.


This is a close up of one of Janos' old suits. This is what Patty's breast looks like.



This is video I took of the INSIDE of the chimp foot I showed you above. This is from the 1950's. It feels like those rubber hip waders and will bend over the soil as you walk to create "mid-tarsal breaks".


This shows the chin area of one of Janos' gorilla heads. Your chin sits on the chin of the helmet/mask. It feels like one of those old timey padded football helmets that were made of leather. Just as Heironimus tried to describe for us.


And that's the outside of that particular head. I'm trying it on. It feels exactly like what Heironimus described. All I need is a fake eyeball and the sun on my back. Add some distance, blur, grain, overexposure and jerkiness and perhaps I can get a make-up person or scientist to say that he can't find a zipper so it must be real.

Cartoon drawings are fun, but they are just from the imagination of the person creating them. That's not real. What I'm showing are things that are real. You can touch them. They can account for what is being shown on the PG film. The footprints, the suit, all of it. Witnesses attest to the fact that Heironimus wore the suit and his story matches reality. Gimlin's does not.


Patterson never searched for Patty again at Bluff Creek even though that was the supposed hot spot where she had been filmed and tracks found year after year. Perhaps, like his "Ape Canyon Campsite Photo" he knew he had made a fake film.

 
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I know what you mean .. here is a repeat of a post I made a couple of years ago .. I bolded what I think is critical insight ..
Its pretty bad the average child can tell its fake. I really dont think the Patty freaks are stupid. I just think they want to believe so bad, they reject reality. Then they got these hand picked pros (meldrum), (Kranz) and others that keep feeding them B.S.! I guess theres something in it for Meldrum & Kranz!? Im just an average Joe, Im no scientist but I do know when im being fed a bunch of Crap! Patterson footage is BOGUS!
 
He's referring to the process of hand knotting hair into a suit. In the US it's called 'ventilation' It's not air conditioning.

Yes and there's no way he can tell how the suit might have been constructed unless he has a much better copy of the PGF than I have ever heard of.
 
So, you can see now that when wolftrax's image of the BCM print w/grid is rotated to the correct orientation - we get a brand new optical illusion. The grid could trick you into thinking that the print really is raised. But, now you know why that happens, right? Check it out...

Illusion option #1)
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Corrected option #1)
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Illusion option #2)
c689d38a.jpg

Corrected option #2)
1c3c009d.jpg
 
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Yes and there's no way he can tell how the suit might have been constructed unless he has a much better copy of the PGF than I have ever heard of.

Agreed (apologies if I misunderstood your original post BTW). I read Peterson's quote as the old argument - 'Planet of the Apes couldn't do it, so how could RP. I'll chuck in some 'technobabble' stuff for good measure'.

Perhaps I'm being unfair.

I've yet to see a PGF proponent back this statement up with proof that the original script or production design called for massively muscled or bulky characters in the movie.

RYAN KENNETH PETERSON is a self-employed fine artist in Salt Lake City and works part time in Los Angeles doing makeup effects for various studios.

Check this page out for RYAN KENNETH PETERSON (religion related)
 
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Seeing is believing normally! I think the Patty freaks can see, feel, and touch. It still wouldnt do any good. Nothing can convince them! The only thing that might work is if someone reenacts the footage and creates a suit identical to Patty. With the supplies they had in 1967. The reenactments ive seen are not that realistic. Not that it couldnt be done. Do you have a pic of the finished product of the man in the bulk suit?
 
Seeing is believing normally! I think the Patty freaks can see, feel, and touch. It still wouldnt do any good. Nothing can convince them! The only thing that might work is if someone reenacts the footage and creates a suit identical to Patty. With the supplies they had in 1967. The reenactments ive seen are not that realistic. Not that it couldnt be done. Do you have a pic of the finished product of the man in the bulk suit?

I don't think that would do any good to do a recreation, the belief is just too entrenched in some people. It would either be too good and show too many flaws or it wouldn't be good enough. I don't think there would be any way to recreate the film that would make everyone happy. Showing how it might have been done in 1967 would probably add to the argument but going full bore on a recreation would be a waste of time and resources IMHO.

I'll say it again, what the hell good does it do to make up cute names for people who's view you don't agree with? (Pattycakes, Scoftics, patty freaks, etc...)
Both sides come off as rather juvenile when they have to resort to that. What's next finger pointing and crying, "they started it"?
 
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I know this has prolly been covered. Just look at them heels. They claim that Patty had an elongated heel. If thats the case the achilles tendon would still connect to the rear of the calcaneus (Heel). The anatomy of the Patterson heel would have to look like the pic of the heel with the extra bone on it. If thats the case, the extra bone would be useless. I think the achilles tendon would have to connect to the rear of the heel or it wouldnt work. If Meldrum is right and pattys heel was elongated and extended, it would have to look like pic with the tendon connected to the rear of the heel. That isnt what pattys heel looks like. This pretty much should convince any Pattycakes. I know it wont. Sorry about the crappy pics. I just cant except the heel thing.
 
BLackdog stated

I'll say it again, what the hell good does it do to make up cute names for people who's view you don't agree with? (Pattycakes, Scoftics, patty freaks, etc...)
Both sides come off as rather juvenile when they have to resort to that. What's next finger pointing and crying, "they started it"?[/QUOTE]


Everyone knows that the PGF is the real deal real, real, real! And oh did I mention real? Seriously lets hope the debate actually comes to a conclusion this time! That said I agree with Blackdog that the name calling done on both sides dosen't to a lot to inspire confidence in either camp.
 
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Wallace tracks

I have John Green's early books that have the Wallace/Blue creek mt tracks and it is clear that these tracks were considered genuine by Green. If Green knew Wallace was there faking tracks with a copy of the genuine tracks how the heck was Green able to tell the real from fake tracks? None of the tracks pictured show impressions greater than what a man would make and wallace would have been making virtually identical tracks with his fake copy. How he could tell the difference is not explained in his books and these went throught several editions over the years.

Green mentions nothing about hoaxers working in the area, in fact he portrays Wallace as the concerned businessman worried about his road building business.

I saw a program where they interviewed some of the guys Wallace made tracks with. They said how they made the tracks by being pulled from a vehicle with ropes attached so they could make the long strides. If you look at some of the Onion Mt tracks you can see fresh tire tracks on the road with the tracks. It was not just Wallace making the tracks it also included his brother Wilbur and several friends so there were enough guys there to make the tracks when Ray was not there.

I know that Green was presenting the Wallace tracks as real well into the 90's right up until the story broke about the Wallace confession. At this point Green somehow knew the fake Wallace tracks from the real bigfoot tracks. This will be a serious blow for bf research.
 
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I'll say it again, what the hell good does it do to make up cute names for people who's view you don't agree with? (Pattycakes, Scoftics, patty freaks, etc...) Both sides come off as rather juvenile when they have to resort to that. What's next finger pointing and crying, "they started it"?

Yeah, you set the tone here.

But dude...

Blackdog said:
No it isn't, this guy (Moneymaker) is a scam artist and everyone knows it. ...this charlatan.

Blackdog said:
I don't have much hope that it will ever change but not everyone interested in this subject is a looneytoon...

Blackdog said:
I don't think the article adds anything to either side of the argument other than showing that bigfoot hunting has always contained elements of infighting and huckstering.

Blackdog said:
Noll likes his secret squirrel, bigfoot guru standing too much and has been dodging questions for too long...

Blackdog said:
I got really frustrated with his dodging tactics, his secret squirrel games and...
 
On Bill Munn's Patty analysis...

I said I would write some lines on Bill Munn's posts at BFF.Well, here they are. As other posters pointed out before, his reasonings have the core flaw of being based on personal perceptions (what Patty looks like in his opinion) and an argument on incredibility – not unlike the “I can’t be fooled” line we see quite often. He shows that he knows how to build a gorilla costume, but as soon as he tries to apply his knowledge to PGF, personal bias (and what seems to be a previously reached conclusion) ruins his work. I think his lines on Patty's breasts were an outstanding example of this (we'll be back to this later). I haven’t seen his latest contributions, so I may be missing something.

At a previous post I commented on his cost analysis. Now, I will focus in what I consider to be three big flaws in Munn's reasonings (there are others, but these are, I believe, enough to expose my points and start a discussion):

1. It would be exhausting to perform as Patty and several helpers would be needed. Sorry, but not necessarily. Here in Brazil, when it’s Carnival, people wear fantasies that are heavier, hotter and more cumbersome during samba school "parades"- and they last for 90 minutes! This is official parade time; you must also take in to account the time needed for the preparation (gathering and organizing the thousands of people that compose each school, as well as mny other things) and the end (dispersion, move people and cars away from the avenue, for another school is coming). It’s not impossible to find people using very hot and cumbersome costumes for two hours. And they will not be just walking along the Sambadrome. They will be dancing. Note also that most of these people make no special preparations for this- actually, usually the preparation is of the alcoholic type. Some if them pass out? Of course, but the vast majority of them manage to do it somehow. Now, remember that Paterson, Gimlim and Hieronimus were cowboys; these folks probably were used to pretty hard work. Wearing a hot gorilla suit would be a piece of cake for them compared to much of the works they previously made. Bob (if he was the bloke in the suit) needs assistance o wear the costume? Patterson and Gimlim could help him put and remove the costume. Then he starts walking, Paterson or Gimlim quickly grabs the camera and starts shooting. Bob Acts as he was told before as soon as someone says “action” or something similar. Was it hot? Here, have some cold water from Bluff creek now; I’ll pay you a couple of beers later at the bar.

2. The seams and fake hair issue. It’s clear for many of us that given the resolution and exposure, seams and an artificial aspect of the hair would quite likely not be seen. But lets advance a bit more on the seams issue. A basic rule of miniature making is that if you can make it look good at small scale, you will be able to make it look even better at a larger scale. What this has to do with a gorilla costume? Simple. Ever seen the work of Ray Harryhaussen? No, I am not saying Ray Harryhaussen built Patty or was somehow involved with it. I just want you to check his stop-motion monsters and animals. Can you see any flaw or seam line at his saber-toothed tiger, Pegasus, baboon or Cyclops? So, if you can’t see the seams at a small miniature, filmed in focus, and filling the whole screen, why would you be supposed to see them at a life-size gorilla costume filmed at distance with a shaky camera? I fail to see how a person with experience in FX would not realize this. There’s no need for expensive hair or fur. And regarding the skill level required to build Patty, one must never underestimate the skills and the will of amateurs; remember also that time was in their side. Patterson may have had plenty of time to test and improve the costume. Probably more than a movie’s time schedule.

3. Patty's breasts… Munn saying they look natural for him raised a huge red flag regarding his objectivity. It’s the very same bias exhibited by many a proponent who claims they look natural or like the breasts of a female hominid or great ape are supposed to look like. A great amount of anatomic knowledge (even if "instinctive" or empirical) is needed to build realistic costumes, sculptures, etc. Heck, its pretty basic requirement- you need to know anatomy if you want to place a person inside a costume or a fantasy. How come someone consider Patty's breasts natural looking? Heavy bias or complete lack of understanding of female (human and great apes) anatomy. Lack of anatomic understanding/knowledge is not expected in an individual whose work is costume making and building animal replicas. So, we are left with…
 

But dude... I didn't use any cute made up names did I? Nor was I generalizing, I was speaking of specific individuals.

Did you actually take time out of your day to look through my posts on various forums just to justify using cutesy names or was it to establish my hypocrisy?
Either way it still seems like a waste of time to me, after all it was just an opinion. You seem to have yours and that's OK too.
 
Correa Neto

Citing the work of Ray Harryhaussen as a means to counter the works and observations Bill Munns has posted concerning the PGF is a classic case of comparing apples to oranges. Mr. Munns stated in the beginning of his BBF posts that static display creations were orders of magnitude eaiser to produce than moving ones. Stop animation, which was the speciality of Ray Harryhaussen, are much closer in character to static display pieces than a live moving mime in a suit. Munns stated quite early on that while his static Gigantopithicus looks impressive would not function as a live action suit.

Having seen many of Harryhausen's monsters on the screen the older I get the worse they look.
 
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Stop animation, which was the speciality of Ray Harryhaussen, are much closer in character to static display pieces than a live moving mime in a suit.
Why is that? The puppets have to have a full range of motion between frames and are, in effect 'posed' for examination every frame (sometimes at 'full stretch' seams & all). Grooming between frames would surely lead to inconsistencies? It ought to also be pointed out that some are covered in very short flexible backed fur made by a patented method that pre-dates the 60's.
 
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Crowlogic wrote:
Munns stated quite early on that while his static Gigantopithicus looks impressive would not function as a live action suit.


A very significant point. A static, stationary suit by no means compares to a moving, flexing one....or to moving flesh.

Dfoot's suit , at this point, is nothing more than a sculpture...and anything can be copied as a sculpture, including Patty. It's meaningless until it's seen on a person, in motion.

Pattywalk5.gif


A shorter version of the clip....notice how in the last frame, the "padding"....coincidentally....takes on the shape of a real leg muscle when it's tightened-up....

Pattywalk56.gif
 
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