[Moderated]The Holocaust never happened!

[332nd]

Well this is straight from the horse's mouth. Las Casas says 3 million.



Notice on wikipedia it says the figure is hotly contested. You wonder why it's ok to debate those numbers, but not the Holocaust. Was it really 6 million?

At the minimum we should be saying 5 million for the Holocaust. Stephen Walt even suggested 3 million or lower.


Native American ethnocide

50 million Native Americans in 1492
8 million in 1650
2 million in 1990

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples
http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/indian/ailang1.txt

Why do we still honor Christopher Columbus as the great discover of America when he was a mass murderer? Do Native Americans have a right to protest about that?

I had no Idea that the Japanese honored Christopher Columbus.

 

[kageki]

I had no Idea that the Japanese honored Christopher Columbus.

Sorry I didn't clarify. I sometimes say "we" because I've grew up and still continue to live in the US. You well know what I mean. Don't nitpick.

 

[Plantfoam]

Yes, Mr. Columbus had some rather dark ambitions in the Caribbean, but I think you are giving him too much genocidal credit. Also, is the spread of disease considered genocide if it is done accidentally?

Either way, it's all a cheap smokescreen in order to make the Holocaust seem insignificant.

 

[332nd]

Sorry I didn't clarify. I sometimes say "we" because I've grew up and still continue to live in the US. You well know what I mean. Don't nitpick.

No I didn't know what you meant. You tout your being born in Japan, you tout your being born to Japanese parents, you "nitpick" someone who says mama instead of mother (a very "American" thing to do), you ask someone if that is what they are taught in America". Sorry, you and your arguments sound a bit fake.

 

[kageki]

Yes, Mr. Columbus had some rather dark ambitions in the Caribbean, but I think you are giving him too much genocidal credit. Also, is the spread of disease considered genocide if it is done accidentally?

Either way, it's all a cheap smokescreen in order to make the Holocaust seem insignificant.

If we're playing the numbers game then it seems like the targeted genocide of about 40 million Native Americans due to the Europeans in about 100 years is much more serious then the Holocaust.

If anything I think these other Holocausts seem too insignificant in comparison.

What does it matter if you think the spread of disease was intentional? Are you trying to diminish how Columbus slaughtered millions, possibly made an entire race of Native Americans extinct and hunted them down for dog food? The Spaniards fed chopped up Native Americans to their dogs and cut limbs off to test the sharpness of their swords. These apparently happened also. I fail to see how this is different from what the Nazis did.


But I still like to know. Was it 6 million for the Holocaust? Did the Nazis really burn Jews alive in ovens? Why are people only jailed for questioning the JEWISH Holocaust? What is fiction and fact?

 

[leftysergeant]

All of the Spaniards who participated in the Conquest croaked years ago, and nobody today would tolerate that sort of handling of native populations by an expansionist colonial power.

Nazis who participated in the Holocaust are still living and making excuses for their sorry butts, and there are punks around who consider them heroes.

Occassionally, they act out their depravities.

That's one of the reasons I pack heat.

 

[332nd]

If we're playing the numbers game then it seems like the targeted genocide of about 40 million Native Americans due to the Europeans in about 100 years is much more serious then the Holocaust.

If anything I think these other Holocausts seem too insignificant in comparison.

What does it matter if you think the spread of disease was intentional? Are you trying to diminish how Columbus slaughtered millions, possibly made an entire race of Native Americans extinct and hunted them down for dog food? The Spaniards fed chopped up Native Americans to their dogs and cut limbs off to test the sharpness of their swords. These apparently happened also. I fail to see how this is different from what the Nazis did.


But I still like to know. Was it 6 million for the Holocaust? Did the Nazis really burn Jews alive in ovens? Why are people only jailed for questioning the JEWISH Holocaust? What is fiction and fact?

Who are the people saying that the Manifest Destiny colonists weren't as bad as history makes them out to be?

 

[leftysergeant]

I had hoped, about the middle of the 20th Century, that we would, as a nation, come to grips with the fact that we were living on stolen land and realize that it was wrong. That is the first step toward putting a stop to that sort of behavior elsewhere, forever.

Bush is still playing Cowboys and Indians in Iraq. We have Nazi sympathizers and apologists posting here.

Human evolution is a very drawn-out process, with uneven results, I guess.

 

[Darat]

You can't have it both ways. First you said the U.S. was "duped" into joining the war; now they were the ones doing the duping? And you seem to have a thing about countries "provoking" other countries into attacking. What were the Allies doing, jumping around going "Nyah, nyah, nyah" and thumbing their noses?

...snip...

It's a well know historical fact: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3182447#post3182447

I have a theory that there are some creatures that look human but are not. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Ceaucescu, Ted Bundy, Charles Manson and Jeffrey Dahmer fit this category. They are not human, and, unless and until our understanding of the way the brain works is increased by orders of magnitude, nothing you can do will make them human. They are not, and should be kept away from others that they could harm.

I have this theory that humans are capable of much more evil than you think they are.

Unfortunately I have to agree with Matthew on this; whilst some people, because of brain disease or damage, may not be able to function in the same way as non-damaged humans we have to face the fact that the spectrum of behaviours we are all capable of span the spectrum from angel to devil.

Many studies have shown that given the right environment even the most "upright, moral and good" of us can act in ways that we generally consider to be reprehensible.

(Saying that I do wonder if at least some of the names Elizabeth mentions are in the "brain damaged" category.)

 

[kageki]

Who are the people saying that the Manifest Destiny colonists weren't as bad as history makes them out to be?

Your own textbooks about your own history. The entire US history is a farce and leaves out so many things.

Do you think Pocahantas would really romantically fall in love with some white guy when they were raping and killing Native Americans to take their land?

Did you know that over 40 million Native Americans died as a result of the establishment of the US? I never knew that figure until recently. Go figure since I'm a product of the US public and private education system.

The US government has you believe that the US was only sparsely populated before Columbus arrived and that the population didn't change much afterwards. That Columbus was a hero that discovered America where it actually seems that he was one of the worst genocidal maniacs in history who merrily fed his dogs Native American meat. I don't recall reading that in any textbook.

So yeah ALOT of things left out, but we all know the "official" history.


Every single "conspiracy" has to do with history that makes the US and British look bad. Who controls the world today?

 

[leftysergeant]

Many studies have shown that given the right environment even the most "upright, moral and good" of us can act in ways that we generally consider to be reprehensible.

(Saying that I do wonder if at least some of the names Elizabeth mentions are in the "brain damaged" category.)

Having met one of them, Bundy, I can only say that the brain damage is not always evident, but an inflated sense of self-worth and entitlement is.

 

[Belz...]

That very documentary got me thinking about 'Der Untergang', and i stand firm in my belief that Hitler's last days are only a matter for historians - not a matter for film makers

Nothing is beyond film-making. Films are created to entertain, and sometimes to create an interest in a particular subject. They shouldn't be seen as historical treatises. Anyone who criticises a movie for being not historically accurate has no idea what movies are about.

Any attempt to 'humanize' Adolf Hitler will always imply some kind of apology, and the terror of the Nazi regime is beyond forgiveness
(thus spoke a student of Albert Camus )

Hitler was a human. Deal.

My biggest concern with 'Der untergang' is its claim to be authentic.

Exactly where does it claim this ?

There is nothing authentic about the movie. It shows a demoralised, pityful, manic psychopath, which in my opinion is dishonest at best.

Tell me, then. Wasn't Hitler a demoralised, pitiful, manic psychopath ?

If the movie should have been made at all (which it in my opinion shouldn't have), it should have captured his 'career' all the way from the rise to power to the final apocalypse.

You're an odd bird. That wasn't the purpose of the movie. This is like people who complain that "The Last Samurai" wasn't historically accurate because the Samurai were, in reality, a dying breed that didn't want to lose its social privileges. So what ? It's a movie. Smart people can watch those movies and take them for what they are.

Besides, I don't know what you this was so inaccurate about Downfall.

But again: I do not want to understand Hitler. He was a very insignificant character, placed on the world scene more by chance than by reckoning it seems.

Well, _I_ want to understand him. I want to know why someone can reach such depths of evil. And he was VERY significant, considering how much harm he did. Trying to ignore his "contribution" won't help.

Don't get me wrong: I think 'Der Untergang' is a great movie. I just don't think it does any service to students of history, nor to the victims of the Nazi era.

It wasn't meant to, methinks, but my opinion is that you give it too little credit.

 

[Belz...]

I believe in one conspiracy theory as you believe in another conspiracy theory.

I believe in no conspiracy theory. But there are conspiracies.

US had broken Japanese codes. The US knew what the Japanese were up to and their capabilities. FDR knew about Pearl Harbor and let it happen.

I've read just enough on this subject to know that whoever says this has read a lot less than I did.

Germany only declared war after Japan out of obligation to the Tripartite Pact. Germany never had intentions of declaring war on America by itself.

How does that help you ? They declared war, still.

What exactly were the ambitions and the intent of Japan?

The "official" explanation is only one side of the argument. What were the British and the US doing at this time?

Who cares ? Why don't we listen to what the Japanese have to say about their own intentions ?

Again nothing to indicate they had any desire to attack the US which makes the story about Pearl Harbor that much more odd.

I don't see where you're going with this. Japan DID attack the US, so that point is moot.

 

[Belz...]

Your own textbooks about your own history. The entire US history is a farce and leaves out so many things.

Do you think Pocahantas would really romantically fall in love with some white guy when they were raping and killing Native Americans to take their land?

Did you know that over 40 million Native Americans died as a result of the establishment of the US? I never knew that figure until recently. Go figure since I'm a product of the US public and private education system.

The US government has you believe that the US was only sparsely populated before Columbus arrived and that the population didn't change much afterwards. That Columbus was a hero that discovered America where it actually seems that he was one of the worst genocidal maniacs in history who merrily fed his dogs Native American meat. I don't recall reading that in any textbook.

So yeah ALOT of things left out, but we all know the "official" history.


Every single "conspiracy" has to do with history that makes the US and British look bad. Who controls the world today?

Why are we suddenly talking about Native Americans ? Let's get back on topic, folks.

 

[Belz...]

Yeah, because one follows the facts and the other doesn't.



Argument from personal incredulity. The USA are not invincible. 9/11 is proof of that. Pearl Harbor is proof of that.



???



Controversy <> Reality

A few dissident nutjobs < Controversy



We call those "surprise attacks" for a reason.



Aside from witnesses whom YOU think support your idea, are there any reliable witnesses. SHE WAS THERE. You weren't. Thousands of people reported these horrific acts, man. What the hell makes you so sure they didn't happen ?



Well! That makes it alright, then!

Kageki, would you mind answering my points ?

 

[Paulhoff]

Other things that never happened,

WWII, The Great Depression, WWI, the Spanish American War, The American Civil War, The Mexican American War, The American Revolution War.

And I’m sure kageki you can think of hundreds of more things that never happened to fit your world views.

Paul

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Notice on wikipedia it says the figure is hotly contested. You wonder why it's ok to debate those numbers, but not the Holocaust. Was it really 6 million?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples

Estimates of how many people were living in the Americas when Columbus arrived have varied tremendously; 20th century scholarly estimates ranged from a low of 8.4 million to a high of 112.5 million persons.

We obviously do not have enough information.

 

[achtung circus]

Well

Hi Nick

You're everywhere interesting, you know.

cheers,

AC

 

[kageki]

We obviously do not have enough information.

Jerome why don't you quote the rest of the text? Are you banking your hopes on the insulting low estimation of 8 million at the time Columbus arrived? 40 million seems like a conservative estimate.

So you have a problem with 40 million exterminated like dogs? Imagine that Germans might have a problem with 6 million dead in ovens and gas chambers.

Didn't Pressac say it's 1 million anyways? How many really did die in the Holocaust? I don't think there was any death camps.

 

[Darat]

kageki - what does Christopher Columbus have to do with whether the Holocaust happened or not?