An email from a Conspiracy theorist, and I have no idea how

[funk de fino]

Yes, there are no bodies of passengers strapped in airplane seats in the evidence of the Moussauoi trial. Yes, there is no list of any wreckage parts of AA77 or any Boeing 757/200 presented at the Moussaoui trial. Yes, this is my experience after having studied all the evidence.
Yes, I have seen all the photos of the trial alleging that damages were caused by AA77 at Pentagon ... but no evidence of any sort that the text and photo belongs together. It fills me with bewilderment. The court only assumed the damages were caused by AA77 as typed on the photos. It is not justice!

so you are one of those moves the goal posts everytime you are shown stuff which bursts your bubble and then jumps onto something else after saying everything which proves you wrong is faked or planted

if you had previously studied all this evidence why did you have to ask for a link to it?

have you listened to all the recordings and watched all the videos in the evidence?

i think you are telling porkie pies

ps you never told me what your experience in 757's was, that would let you make judgements on whether one had crashed at the pentagon or not?

 

[Belz...]

How do you verify wreckage?

Everything you find must be properly documented under controlled conditions, etc.

Uh-huh, but since you keep claiming that said wreckage is planted, how would you tell the difference ?

You do not allow amateurs to collect it and throw it in a garbage container as done by FBI.

The FBI are amateurs ? News to me.

If you can't spot a special effects shot on a normal speed viewing of a video, then you've got no eye for spotting special effects. Period. End of story.

And I'd like to add that those CGI planes probably took weeks to composite into those shots.

So the plane didn't burn at all!

AMAZING! Every fact in the universe supports your theory, even the actual OPPOSITE of what you thought, which ALSO supported your theory.

it was the government that deceived the population

Ah, yes. The government. Damn that monolithic, subhuman entity!

Why would they falsify that? For selling DVDs?

False dichotomy.

Amazingly no seats or safety belts were recovered at Shanksville but at Pentagon yes. From the cock pit. That had gone through a reinforced wall.

So... what ? Seat belts should simply vanish in thin air when forced through a wall ?

Not one WMD! They found some persons stating that Iraq might have considered WMD and so on. Not very convincing.

What does this have to do with 9/11 ?

They seem pretty serious in my opinion.

Yeah, that's the burden of proof in courts around 1700.

 

[Belz...]

I actually asked Beachnut but the answer is wrong. CIA evidently produced false 'facts' about WMDs in Iraq at the request of their masters to suit their needs.

Evidently ? You picked one of several, equally probable possibilities and call that one "evident" ? Why this one in particular ? Is it because it fits your preconceived notions ?

Please - this photo could be anything.

So this comes right back to the question: how can you make sure of anything ?

I (people?) am accusing some gangsters of mass murder.

Circular reasoning.

However, it should not be impossible for FBI to show today that some properly recorded and documented wreckage parts actually belonged to the missing planes, etc. It has nothing to do with the criminal investigation. But it seems they cannot!

Occam's razor, Heiwa. Thousands of people see a plane crash into a skyscraper. Said building collapses. We find aircraft wreckage in the debris. They look like 767 parts from that airline. What's the obvious conclusion ?

No plane parts seen anywhere outside the building!

That's a complete lie.

And it is the simplest way to cause the observed damages.

Begging the question.

The plane? Deception of course.

You're proceeding from unproven assumptions.

No, I am just curious. So from what part of a plane - AA77? - is the debris on the photo? I doubt very much it is from a Boeing 767/200. Could be from a helicopter?

Occam's razor, Heiwa. Think.

Why would there be helicopter debris on the lawn ?

As long as the wreckage is not properly documented (place/time found, by whom, treatment, history, origin, identified by whom, etc) I am not impressed.

Oh, so you WOULD be impressed with that information ? You wouldn't claim that it was "made up" ? Really ?

 

[Belz...]

BTW - trance = abnormal, dreamy state when you accept the most preposterous suggestions by the authorities. Denial = statement that something is not true.

Stop fancying yourself a psychologist. You don't know squat about anything.

Open criminal case is just an excuse to hide incompetency or worse; don't you agree?

It can be. Non sequitur.

Sorry, gate keeper.

And here we have another Malcolm Kirkman. A man who thinks everyone who disagrees with him is automatically an evil statu quo protector paid for by the government because the "evidence" is so obvious that no one in his right mind could possibly deny it.

There is generally no evidence of an AA77 plane crasch presented except maybe for P20030 showing some unidentified mechanical parts origin of which is not known.

Okay, okay. Let's take this from the beginning. How would YOU identify wreckage parts. Details, please.

 

[Heiwa]

Okay, okay. Let's take this from the beginning. How would YOU identify wreckage parts. Details, please.

Let's take the dead bodies in Pentagon as an example. How did they die? Apart from recording their locations in the building and the surroundings according normal FBI procedures I would recommend an autopsy of every body (also normal FBI procedure). Then I would know if they died from suffocation/smoke inhalation, being knocked out by falling debris, being blasted by an explosive device, etc. I assume some victims had been blown to pieces and evaporated and could not be located. It seems no autopsies were done by FBI & Co so we do not know how they died. Why? Because I assume some bodies can be shown to have died due to an explosive device in the building!!

According FBI an airplane penetrated the outer E-wall and spilled 20-30 tons of jet fuel inside the building that then ignited and burnt. The pictures of the explosion taken from outside show something completely different. A sudden explosion, white water vapour developing and a bright yellow fire ball expanding from inside indicating very high temperature. It could never have been caused by jet fuel flying in from outside! Only a heavy explosive device could have caused it - probably planted in the building. And then we look inside. You would expect a lot of soot everywhere due to the jet fuel. But you see none or little! Actually the fire became very small and normal very quickly = only material originally in the building was burning. Where did the jet fuel go?

But you were asking about wreckage parts. Let's take the seats of the air plane where passengers were found strapped in with their seat belts allegedly found by some fire fighters. I assume FBI then handled bodies/seats.

I would evidently, after taken care of the dead bodies as outlined above, record, document, examine the seats/belts to find out how they survived the crash. And then save them for further examination later to present them at any trial that could follow.

So where are these seats? We are told FBI has them and everything else but cannot even show them due to some rules. I find that preposterous. Can't FBI show a damaged air plane chair/seat/belt/phone from Pentagon? There was a schorched body in it.

According various sources a certain Mme Barbara O, unfortunate A77 passenger, should have been found inside the Pentagon. I doubt it very much. What evidence exists? Some DNA analyzed by Pentagon. No autopsy. I am not convinced. I am perplexed by the sloppy work of FBI.

 

[GlennB]

.....
According various sources a certain Mme Barbara O, unfortunate A77 passenger, should have been found inside the Pentagon. I doubt it very much. What evidence exists? Some DNA analyzed by Pentagon. No autopsy. I am not convinced. I am perplexed by the sloppy work of FBI.

Heiwa, it's quite hard to discuss your comment above without pointing out that the remains of Barbara O might well not have been sufficient for an autopsy.

If all that was left was scraps of flesh, bone, blood, hair etc, how would an autopsy have been possible?

It makes me feel slightly sick listening to your absurd arguments, even before we discuss the nature of the remains of innocent victims.

You need help.

 

[T.A.M.]

I would evidently, after taken care of the dead bodies as outlined above, record, document, examine the seats/belts to find out how they survived the crash. And then save them for further examination later to present them at any trial that could follow.

So where are these seats? We are told FBI has them and everything else but cannot even show them due to some rules. I find that preposterous. Can't FBI show a damaged air plane chair/seat/belt/phone from Pentagon? There was a schorched body in it.

According various sources a certain Mme Barbara O, unfortunate A77 passenger, should have been found inside the Pentagon. I doubt it very much. What evidence exists? Some DNA analyzed by Pentagon. No autopsy. I am not convinced. I am perplexed by the sloppy work of FBI.

1. You are not an FBI agent/officer
2. You are not a coroner/MD/Medical Examiner
3. You are not a crime scene investigator
4. You are not a crash scene investigator

SO, where do you get off setting standards for what should or should not have been done. Where do you get off calling their job sloppy because it doesnt meet your uneducated, uninformed standards. Where do you get off accusing the FBI of not recording this, or not examining this, JUST BECAUSE you haven't been given access to such things.

Your comments are horrible. I hope one day you run into a relative of one of the plane victims while you are shooting your mouth off like this, and I hope he or she slaps you in the face hard enough to make you hurt.

TAM

 

[Heiwa]

Your comments are horrible. I hope one day you run into a relative of one of the plane victims while you are shooting your mouth off like this, and I hope he or she slaps you in the face hard enough to make you hurt.

TAM

Why are they horrible? And only worth a little slap in the face of a relative? Don't answer.

It seems our friendly and lively discussion how to do a proper job is transmuting. Maybe somebody has enjoyed it? Bye, bye.

 

[T.A.M.]

don't let the door hit you...too hard.

TAM

 

[twinstead]

Why are they horrible? And only worth a little slap in the face of a relative? Don't answer.

It seems our friendly and lively discussion how to do a proper job is transmuting. Maybe somebody has enjoyed it? Bye, bye.

Why are they horrible? Are you kidding? Don't you realize the implications of your theory? Don't you know the implications of claiming evidence is faked or planted in a plot to kill thousands of innocent people?

It means that you are accusing those who handled that evidence of being complicit in mass murder ON THE SLIMMEST OF EVIDENCE!

That, sir, is what is horrible. To you, you are simply accusing a THING, the Man, the evil government, of a heinous crime. But that's not true. The government is made up of people. Regular people just like you and I.

First responders, DNA specialists, volunteers who picked up body parts in Shanksville, etc. Families of the victims who received phone calls from them just before they died. These are the people you are accusing of either being 'in on it', or idiots.

So, the horrible part still stands. You come on this board an obvious blind ideologue, and you leave some kind of martyr you can tell all your conspiracist buddies about how mistreated you were by the big, bad debunkers.

I say good riddance!

 

[T.A.M.]

I think I hurt his feelings when I DARED to put a real human face to the whole thing...that is something they seem to readily forget.

TAM

 

[twinstead]

I think I hurt his feelings when I DARED to put a real human face to the whole thing...that is something they seem to readily forget.

TAM

Almost to a man they forget that. They're like little kids with no thoughts at all about the consequences and ramifications of their little theories

 

[Belz...]

Let's take the dead bodies in Pentagon as an example. How did they die? Apart from recording their locations in the building and the surroundings according normal FBI procedures I would recommend an autopsy of every body (also normal FBI procedure).

Heiwa, please tell me WHY you'd think such an autopsy would be required. Since we know a plane with passengers on it crashed into a building with people in it, why would checking the cause of death be that important ?

Then I would know if they died from suffocation/smoke inhalation, being knocked out by falling debris, being blasted by an explosive device, etc.

Again, why is it important. I'm sure the families wouldn't care about the EXACT cause of death.

I assume some victims had been blown to pieces and evaporated and could not be located. It seems no autopsies were done by FBI & Co so we do not know how they died. Why? Because I assume some bodies can be shown to have died due to an explosive device in the building!!

Heiwa, think about this. You assume that there was an explosive device in the building, and you're using it to explain the lack of autopsies done on those corpses, who in turn are used to prove that there was an explosive device.

That's circular reasoning, by the way, and it's a big logical error on your part.

A sudden explosion, white water vapour developing and a bright yellow fire ball expanding from inside indicating very high temperature. It could never have been caused by jet fuel flying in from outside!

Why not ? Jet fuel is, by definition, flammable and explosive.

Only a heavy explosive device could have caused it - probably planted in the building.

Please explain why the fuel is not a good candidate for that.

I would evidently, after taken care of the dead bodies as outlined above, record, document, examine the seats/belts to find out how they survived the crash.

Are you a crash investigator ? I don't think so. So pay attention: People who do this regularily know what can and does survive crashes in certain instances. They aren't surprised in the least that those pieces of wreckage survived. Why should you ?

According various sources a certain Mme Barbara O, unfortunate A77 passenger, should have been found inside the Pentagon. I doubt it very much. What evidence exists? Some DNA analyzed by Pentagon. No autopsy. I am not convinced. I am perplexed by the sloppy work of FBI.

You're being pig-headed for no reason. Why is DNA evidence insufficient ? How would an autopsy help identify the body more than DNA ? It seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you are placing an unreasonable burden of proof on the authorities, presumably because you have an already pre-determined conclusion that you don't wish to see challenged.

 

[Gravy]

"When Williams discovered the scorched bodies of several airline passengers, they were still strapped into their seats. The stench of charred flesh overwhelmed him.

'It was the worst thing you can imagine,' said Williams, whose squad from Fort Belvoir, Va., entered the building, less than four hours after the terrorist attack. 'I wanted to cry from the minute I walked in. But I have soldiers under me and I had to put my feelings aside.' " http://tinyurl.com/kth3m


"I did see airplane seats and a corpse still strapped to one of the seats."
Capt. Jim Ingledue, Virginia Beach Fire Dept. Source


Firefighters Carlton Burkhammer and Brian Moravitz "spotted an intact seat from the plane's cockpit with a chunk of the floor still attached." Source


“We discovered cockpit wreckage at our feet while attempting to rescue people from a Navy operations area.” Source


Much more here.

 

[Panoply_Prefect]

"When Williams discovered the scorched bodies of several airline passengers, they were still strapped into their seats. The stench of charred flesh overwhelmed him.

'It was the worst thing you can imagine,' said Williams, whose squad from Fort Belvoir, Va., entered the building, less than four hours after the terrorist attack. 'I wanted to cry from the minute I walked in. But I have soldiers under me and I had to put my feelings aside.' " http://tinyurl.com/kth3m


"I did see airplane seats and a corpse still strapped to one of the seats."
Capt. Jim Ingledue, Virginia Beach Fire Dept. Source


Firefighters Carlton Burkhammer and Brian Moravitz "spotted an intact seat from the plane's cockpit with a chunk of the floor still attached." Source


“We discovered cockpit wreckage at our feet while attempting to rescue people from a Navy operations area.” Source


Much more here.

As with photos, Heiwa does not recognize interviews in newspapers as evidence (in fact over at the swedish board Flashback.info he has just declared that Jref debaters only could produce "newspaper canards" as proof of burned bodies in seats). What exactly would constitute evidence that he would accept is at the moment unclear. But I imagine if anyone would present anything new, his definition of "valid evidence" would quickly change.

 

[Gravy]

As with photos, Heiwa does not recognize interviews in newspapers as evidence (in fact over at the swedish board Flashback.info he has just declared that Jref debaters only could produce "newspaper canards" as proof of burned bodies in seats). What exactly would constitute evidence that he would accept is at the moment unclear. But I imagine if anyone would present anything new, his definition of "valid evidence" would quickly change.

These people are easy to get in touch with. Isn't it interesting that these cowards don't have the guts to tell the first responders and investigators what they think, to their faces? I guess they're afraid of being Buzz Aldrined, but you know what? The people they're too cowardly to confront tend to be quite cool under pressure. They'd probably just calmly explain what their roles and procedures were, as they've done with me. I'll tell you this: the people who collected and processed those human remains took their jobs very seriously.

The truth burns 9/11 creeps like sunlight burns a vampire.

 

[stateofgrace]

Why are they horrible? And only worth a little slap in the face of a relative? Don't answer.

It seems our friendly and lively discussion how to do a proper job is transmuting. Maybe somebody has enjoyed it? Bye, bye.

You deserve so much more than a slap in the face sunbeam, but forum rules prevent me from stating exactly what you deserve.

YOU an unqualified nobody has the shear nerve to make wild assumptions based on the work of those people that were there and had dreadful task of going through the aftermath of a plane crash. A plane that carried real people on was crashed into the side of a building that was full of real people and you whinge and moan that you have not seen photographs of the dead.

YOU assume that that the people who were there and did all them could to help on that dreadful day owe you anything. You are owed nothing; you deserve nothing other than utter contempt for your unqualified nonsense.

YOU who had not even done any research and did not even know there were pictures that had been released to the public showing the dead honestly believe you are in any sort of position to cast your expert opinion on the way this situation was dealt with. This same complete nobody who makes wild assumptions that the fires were not hot enough inside the towers. So the reason people jumped to the deaths is because they saw the other tower collapse.

YOU are not worth the time of the day and it is very rare I actually shake with anger when I post, this is one of those rare occasions. I truly pity you, you insignificant gob Shiate. You sir are a ghoul, an indifference, insignificant, unqualified, unreserved ghoul who uses this and the poor victims who were caught up in it to fuel your own ego. Take your unqualified ego and wild assumptions else where.

This is nothing more repugant in this life that individuals who through some perverse sense of self gratification wishes to see graphic and distributing pictures of those that died and would wish to use the same pictures to condemn those who where there and experienced the reality behind those pictures. There are things in this life that are best left unseen, that are best kept from ghouls like you.

YOU have my unreserved contempt.

( I apologies to every other member who has tried reasoning with this individual for my outburst, I see no point in further fuelling his ego and will withdraw from this thread)

 

[Heiwa]

Heiwa, please tell me WHY you'd think such an autopsy would be required. Since we know a plane with passengers on it crashed into a building with people in it, why would checking the cause of death be that important ?

Why not ? Jet fuel is, by definition, flammable and explosive.

Please explain why the fuel is not a good candidate for that.

Autopises establishes how persons died; Suffocation, smoke inhalation, knocked down by some debris or flying object, subject to en explosion, being shot, murdered with knife and so on. The victims in pentagon died in different ways - it was not a plane hitting them causing their deaths in most cases - and the exact causes are of interest to exclude a bomb explosion as cause.

No, jet fuel is not explosive - it is a combustible. It burns much slower than real explosives and causes a rather slow shock wave. Not even jet fuel gases mixed with air (used in jet engines) are explosive - they burn fast but not as fast as explosives that detonate causing a very fast shockwave.

Experts suggest what we saw at pentagon was a detonation caused by explosives and not a fire ball of jetfuel. http://www.voltairenet.org/article139203.html#article139203 .

Note the difference with WTC - no detonation when the plane impacts - just a fire ball. Real detonations are heard when the towers fall - a clear sign of controlled demolition.

Many persons in pentagon assume it was a detonation inside pentagon. The shock/heat wave proceeded through the corridors far away from the impact point. It would not have happened with a plane crashing into the ground floor releasing jet fuel.

 

[Panoply_Prefect]

Experts suggest what we saw at pentagon was a detonation caused by explosives and not a fire ball of jetfuel. http://www.voltairenet.org/article139203.html#article139203 .

Experts? Who but that french army officer? And as I understand it he claims it was a missile:

This photo, and the effects described in the official version, lead me therefore to think that the detonation that struck the building was that of a high-powered hollow charge used to destroy hardened buildings and carried by an aerial vehicle, a missile.This photo, and the effects described in the official version, lead me therefore to think that the detonation that struck the building was that of a high-powered hollow charge used to destroy hardened buildings and carried by an aerial vehicle, a missile.

Doesn't quite support your stance that it was pre-planted explosives inside the building.

Btw, is he the same Pierre-Henri Bunel that 2001 was convicted for treason (for selling NATO-secrets to the Serbian government in 1998) by French authorities?

/S

 

[Belz...]

Autopises establishes how persons died; Suffocation, smoke inhalation, knocked down by some debris or flying object, subject to en explosion, being shot, murdered with knife and so on. The victims in pentagon died in different ways - it was not a plane hitting them causing their deaths in most cases - and the exact causes are of interest to exclude a bomb explosion as cause.

I didn't ask you to repeat your earlier claim, Heiwa. I asked you why you would want an autopsy since we have every reason to believe that the airliner crash killed these poor people.

What makes you think that there is another possible cause for their death ?

No, jet fuel is not explosive - it is a combustible.

Not explosive ? Have you seen 175 hit 2 WTC ?

Experts suggest what we saw at pentagon was a detonation caused by explosives and not a fire ball of jetfuel. http://www.voltairenet.org/article139203.html#article139203 .

That's singular, Heiwa.

Note the difference with WTC - no detonation when the plane impacts - just a fire ball. Real detonations are heard when the towers fall - a clear sign of controlled demolition.

How can you tell there was a "detonation" ?

Many persons in pentagon assume it was a detonation inside pentagon.

That's your proof ? People assume it ?

Do you have anything besides speculation, Heiwa ? This is getting tiresome.