Bill Cosby's 2004 "Rant" against low-class blacks

[steverino]

Straight A student bub.

Evidence?

 

[Modified]

(I assume you realize I was paraphrasing an old Bill Cosby joke, but a smilie would have helped.)

Since "humid" doesn't apply to humans, I didn't think it was necessary. Now, if I had opened with "Sultry?"...

 

[ponderingturtle]

No, he's resentful that they're choosing wrongly.

The way you phrase it, you make it sound like reading skills (for example) are simply a matter of taste, like liking olives on your pizza or not. That the decision to commit a crime or not is of not more import than the decision to put grey or green carpet in your house.

I have no problem with the idea that a decision with objectively bad consequences can be objectively wrong.

Also after choosing to do an action claiming that there where no other options.

 

[Snide]

At least three times an episode, IIRC.

You know, I was thinking I heard it often on the show, but I only remembered with any certainty the one where they visited their fathers' work.

 

[Dark Jaguar]

Other than the idea that this is race specific, or that there's a "we" that should gather together around a set of genes (which does have it's moments, but those moments are limited to when some other group has already established a persecution against those genes, in other words such groups are created by circumstances beyond those group's control), I agree with the message here.

 

[bigred]

I cant blame him for being mad. I cant imagine working so hard to get the right to the same educational oppertunities for blacks and seeing people get beat up and arrested to fight for them only to see the next generation not even try to take advantage of those oppertunities.

Beat up and arrested? Many people (black and white) DIED to fight and get the rights that blacks (and other minorities) now have. First just freedom, then "real" freedom (ie fighting for truly equal opportunity, jim crow laws etc etc). Generation after generation fought tooth and nail and worked themselves to the bone, dreaming of the day when blacks would have the opportunities they now have.

The result?

Many blacks not only don't try to take advantage of those opportunities - which is certainly bad enough - they actually scorn those opportunities. They actually think that getting an education or even being intelligent is "acting white" - which is stupid as well as hypocritical in the extreme.

Yet society as a whole doesn't even blink an eye, for fear the apologists, bleeding hearts, and other assorted mindless yahoos freak out. Why our society decided to discard not only its mind but its backbone I'll never know.

It's this severe, extreme, unbelievable absurdity than he finally got so fed up with that he felt he had to say something, despite the incredible backlash he knew he risked.

 

[bigred]

No matter how I look at it, making decisions that cause more harm than good is something that people, in general, should avoid and be against.

The thing is if they just harmed themselves I could frankly give a flip. But they harm others - eg people who care about them. Further, they also (either directly or indirectly) may harm others....even society on the whole.

 

[Dave1001]

I'm more of a Sinbad fan.

 

[bigred]

Being able to choose wrongly is all part of freedom.

Depends what you mean by "wrongly" - but in general, that's frankly one of the weakest supporting arguments for something I've ever heard.

My glass-half-full assessment is that "choosing wrongly" isn't quite a problem with African Americans that Cosby seems to make of it, either. This is what makes Cosby's rant less of a constructive criticism than more of a crusty old man rant.

Apologist logic; you could throw some salt and mustard on it and sell it at baseball games.

Yeah being outraged at parents/kids/etc tossing their and/or their kids' lives out the window is an "old man rant." He should bury his head in the sand like everybody else.

 

[AmateurScientist]

Beat up and arrested? Many people (black and white) DIED to fight and get the rights that blacks (and other minorities) now have. First just freedom, then "real" freedom (ie fighting for truly equal opportunity, jim crow laws etc etc). Generation after generation fought tooth and nail and worked themselves to the bone, dreaming of the day when blacks would have the opportunities they now have.

The result?

Many blacks not only don't try to take advantage of those opportunities - which is certainly bad enough - they actually scorn those opportunities. They actually think that getting an education or even being intelligent is "acting white" - which is stupid as well as hypocritical in the extreme.

Yet society as a whole doesn't even blink an eye, for fear the apologists, bleeding hearts, and other assorted mindless yahoos freak out. Why our society decided to discard not only its mind but its backbone I'll never know.

It's this severe, extreme, unbelievable absurdity than he finally got so fed up with that he felt he had to say something, despite the incredible backlash he knew he risked.

Well said, bigred. I couldn't agree more with Cosby's rant or his disgust and frustration with a huge segment of black society's failing to avail itself of hard-won opportunities.

I admire his candor and guts in saying it. Of course, he's never been short on guts, so I'm not surprised to read that he went off about this topic.

AS

 

[AmateurScientist]

Other than the idea that this is race specific, or that there's a "we" that should gather together around a set of genes (which does have it's moments, but those moments are limited to when some other group has already established a persecution against those genes, in other words such groups are created by circumstances beyond those group's control), I agree with the message here.

Well, if you divorce the message from the history of black persons and civil rights in the United States, it sort of doesn't make sense anymore. You can't ignore the history or that there is a segment of society that self identifies as black (and that most others can recognize as belonging to that group) and feels bound together by some common elements of a shared history and culture. If you deny there is such a thing, then I suspect you don't know many black persons.

Pretending there isn't such a thing as race doesn't make centuries of prejudice and oppression go away. It doesn't nullify the efforts of thousands upon thousands of tireless and brave fighters for civil rights.

There is nothing racist about Cosby's remarks. He is pissed off at the casual lack of appreciation for the sacrifices of his generation and those before him by the ambition-challenged younger persons he would like to see avail themselves of their educational opportunities that they are throwing away like a Burger King Whopper wrapper. Given his background in education and his years of work with kids, it hardly seems surprising that he would take notice and be pissed off.

AS

 

[fuelair]

Wrong. I was reading very poorly for many years from say first through 6 grade I was much below grade level, then in about a year and a half I went from being significantly behind in reading to significantly ahead in reading.

Of course I did like being read to the whole time, but was not able to read myself.

My uncle also was unable to read at 3 or 4th grade and his teacher said he would never graduate from high school. His phd in ecconomics would seem to disagree with that assessment.

Let me add a bit here - as there is a lot more BUT in functional essence it supports the research you disagree with. Short but sweet:

1) Most poor children(actual or functional (location/background)) have a massive deficit in both spoken (rarely spoken to/listened to in home/family situations, if are, have heard at best 20-25% of amount of directed speech mid-class kids have by first grade) and written/read (less than 10% exposed to newspapers, magazines at home prior to first grade. And most have had no prior external experience either (no kindergarten - at best some loose form of child care).

2)Although the situation is supposedly improving, teachers are unable to concentrate on the ones' with a deficit (and quite frankly, the teachers cannot be blamed - they are NOT reading specialists AND they must handle all subjects ) so unless large scale interventions are otherwise available the kids move along with minimal help..

3)So we hit 9 years old/4th grade. The major brain-based research says that if the child cannot read well enough to learn directly from reading by now, the neural pathways necessary for this can no longer be developed and the child will not ever be able to read for the purpose of learning successfully.

4) Now we hit anecdotal data, as opposed to the research. In my area, 2 teachers and an aide/para (none knowing the others) have spoken when I pointed out item 3 (which Florida lives by) for a reason not connected with this, that each has been involved with one of two different small scale programs (one computer based) that handle no more than 15 students 4th to 8th grade per period and that some of those students have reached some competance in reading for learning through these. Since none of the three were currently involved in either of the programs when we spoke, they theoretically had no current ax to grind so their point may well be correct - but I have seen no research that supports it.

 

[Luke T.]

Being able to choose wrongly is all part of freedom.

My glass-half-full assessment is that "choosing wrongly" isn't quite a problem with African Americans that Cosby seems to make of it, either. This is what makes Cosby's rant less of a constructive criticism than more of a crusty old man rant.

Are you kidding? Do you know what the stats are on blacks and prisons? Out of wedlock children? Murder rate? Crime-in-general rate? Do you have any clue?

Cosby is dead on. Blacks are self-destructing. It's the old bucket of crabs syndrome in full force.

 

[Luke T.]

Cosby could have made the same speech about any ethnic group

Bullcrap. Complete and total bullcrap.

The proportion of all births that are to unmarried women increased for all population groups in 2004. The proportions in 2004 were 15.5 percent for API women, 24.5 percent for non-Hispanic white women, 46.4 percent for Hispanic women, 62.3 percent for AIAN women, and 69.3 percent for non-Hispanic black women.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr55/nvsr55_01.pdf

API - Asian Pacific Islander
AIAN - American Indian or Alaskan Native

24.5 percent of unmarried mothers were white. 69.3 percent were black. That is almost three times as many black kids born out of wedlock than white kids. And blacks are the minority in this country. According to the US Census, they make up 12.8 percent of the US population.

12.8 percent of the population is responsible for 69.3 percent of out of wedlock births.

That same 12.8 percent makes up 49 percent of the US prison population.

In 2004, homicide victimization rates for blacks were 6 times higher than the rates for whites.

Department of Justice

That's a huge problem. Cosby's rant is not a rant you could say "about any ethnic group". It is a problem that can ONLY be applied to blacks.

 

[AmateurScientist]

Bullcrap. Complete and total bullcrap.

I agree.

24.5 percent of unmarried mothers were white. 69.3 percent were black. That is almost three times as many black kids born out of wedlock than white kids. And blacks are the minority in this country. According to the US Census, they make up 12.8 percent of the US population.

12.8 percent of the population is responsible for 69.3 percent of out of wedlock births.

I think you misread the report and the table. The U.S. Census Bureau report you cite is referring to proportions of all births to unmarried women within each racial or ethnic group reported upon, not as a percentage of the total number of births to unmarried women in that year.

Thus, when the report gives the number of 69.3 for black women, it is stating that of all births to black women in that year, 69.3% of them were to unmarried women. Obviously, the remaining 30.7% of black births were to married women. Those percentages do not affect the percentages for any other racial or ethnic groups in the report.

I'll quote the relevant section from the report:

The [FONT=HIDMP M+ Helvetica,Helvetica]proportion of all births that are to unmarried women [/FONT]increased for all population groups in 2004. The proportions in 2004 were 15.5 percent for API women, 24.5 percent for non-Hispanic white women, 46.4 percent for Hispanic women, 62.3 percent for AIAN women, and 69.3 percent for non-Hispanic black women.

Add up all the percentages in that quote. It's a lot more than 100%. It was an easy error to make. Anyone could have done it.

That same 12.8 percent makes up 49 percent of the US prison population.

Department of Justice

That's a huge problem. Cosby's rant is not a rant you could say "about any ethnic group". It is a problem that can ONLY be applied to blacks.

Indeed. Your observation that a grossly disproportionate cross-section of the population of jails and prisons in the U.S. is black should be obvious to anyone familiar with jails and prisons. I know you are from your many years of volunteer work in them. I am too, of course, and it is a fact that is undisputed and unchallenged, except perhaps only by die hard social idealists and ostriches.

Cosby is merely acknowledging the elephant in the living room.

AS

 

[Luke T.]

Thus, when the report gives the number of 69.3 for black women, it is stating that of all births to black women in that year, 69.3% of them were to unmarried women. Obviously, the remaining 30.7% of black births were to married women. Those percentages do not affect the percentages for any other racial or ethnic groups in the report.

That's what I get for posting in a hurry.

Still, in the year of Cosby's speech, more than 2 of every 3 births among black women were out of wedlock, and that's a disaster.

 

[AmateurScientist]

That's what I get for posting in a hurry.

Happens to the best of us. It just shows you're human.

Still, in the year of Cosby's speech, more than 2 of every 3 births among black women were out of wedlock, and that's a disaster.

Yep, sure is, and a self-perpetuating one too until those cultural norms change.

AS

 

[ponderingturtle]

Let me add a bit here - as there is a lot more BUT in functional essence it supports the research you disagree with. Short but sweet:

1) Most poor children(actual or functional (location/background)) have a massive deficit in both spoken (rarely spoken to/listened to in home/family situations, if are, have heard at best 20-25% of amount of directed speech mid-class kids have by first grade) and written/read (less than 10% exposed to newspapers, magazines at home prior to first grade. And most have had no prior external experience either (no kindergarten - at best some loose form of child care).

2)Although the situation is supposedly improving, teachers are unable to concentrate on the ones' with a deficit (and quite frankly, the teachers cannot be blamed - they are NOT reading specialists AND they must handle all subjects ) so unless large scale interventions are otherwise available the kids move along with minimal help..

3)So we hit 9 years old/4th grade. The major brain-based research says that if the child cannot read well enough to learn directly from reading by now, the neural pathways necessary for this can no longer be developed and the child will not ever be able to read for the purpose of learning successfully.

4) Now we hit anecdotal data, as opposed to the research. In my area, 2 teachers and an aide/para (none knowing the others) have spoken when I pointed out item 3 (which Florida lives by) for a reason not connected with this, that each has been involved with one of two different small scale programs (one computer based) that handle no more than 15 students 4th to 8th grade per period and that some of those students have reached some competance in reading for learning through these. Since none of the three were currently involved in either of the programs when we spoke, they theoretically had no current ax to grind so their point may well be correct - but I have seen no research that supports it.

And by point 3, both I and my uncle can not have had the educational experiance that we did. So by 3 I do not exist and neither does my uncle.

 

[bigred]

Are you kidding? Do you know what the stats are on blacks and prisons?

Oh cmon we all know that's because there's a NATION-WIDE CONSPIRACY of all cops and judges (etc etc) against the black man.

Go ahead and laugh, but you'd be amazed at how many people actually believe this is not only feasible, but true. This is how extreme and ridiculous the situation is.

Out of wedlock children? Murder rate? Crime-in-general rate? Do you have any clue?

Again, all whitey's fault. Somehow.

Cosby is dead on. Blacks are self-destructing. It's the old bucket of crabs syndrome in full force.

"bucket of crabs" - ?? That's a new one on me....

 

[Garrette]

And by point 3, both I and my uncle can not have had the educational experiance that we did. So by 3 I do not exist and neither does my uncle.

You seem to be missing the qualifier that I did not intend to say that the studies indicated 100% of poor readers remain poor readers.

As promised, I started a new thread in Education.

A revision on my part. The seminal study (Juel, 1988) was a longitudinal study of students from first through fourth grades, so to be precise my claim should have said that poor readers in first grade remain poor readers in fourth grade (with a probability of .88).