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Bill Cosby's 2004 "Rant" against low-class blacks

ponderingturtle said:
Then don't make blanket statements. Saying it is a strong indicator is good enough.
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Ah. So the confusion was in my wording. Apologies. I did not mean to imply (as the studies do not imply) that NO child who is behind in reading in first grade ever catches up. I meant it in the normal sense that the majority don't. Much like medicines don't resolve in everyone the medical conditions they are used for.
 
ponderingturtle said:
How strong is the correlation between being a poor reader in first grade and being a poor reader in high school? It certainly not 100% as we show that it is simply not universaly true.
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Not to sound like I'm arguing both sides, but "not 100%" isn't a real useful basis for evaluation. What happens before or after the 1st day of 1st grade may be important, but 1st grade, and often Kindergarden, is the first crack at teaching kids that the public education system has. Having said that, addressing what makes poor kids 3 years behind in reading already when they get to 4th grade with whatever you can do starting in 1st grade should be an urgent priority for public education in every state.
 
Just to further the point, the most damaging myths about approaching these problems is that a) testing and b) being more challenging is in any way helpful.

Testing tells us how we're doing, but doesn't actually affect improvement. As for being more challenging, that doesn't help students who don't have the reading skills to meet a remedial level challenge in the first place. It merely sets them further behind the level of teaching/materials.
 
Garrette said:
I will rise to my own defense in magnificent fashion with two retorts:

1. I'm not the PhD candidate.

2. An anecdote or two against does not disprove the general claim. Especially when the anecdotes come from the JREF population which I wager is a bit of a self-selecting exceptional group.
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I'll agree with you here, but I was put into the "tortoise" reader group in 1st grade along with most other Hispanic or Native American children in my class. It wasn't until later that I saw reading as a way to escape the condition of being poor. It allowed me to travel to far away lands, learn about things I thought I would never experience and comprehend things that neither my family nor my peers could explain.

I believe that struggling with English as a second language often puts a young student at odds with the educational system. All too often children are shuffled away into the "slow-learning" group without a second thought from teachers who are more willing to concentrate on their shining stars.

BTW, I credit several of my teachers throughout life for having the determination (and passion) to ensure that the seed they planted had germinated.
 
Garrette said:
Ah. So the confusion was in my wording. Apologies. I did not mean to imply (as the studies do not imply) that NO child who is behind in reading in first grade ever catches up. I meant it in the normal sense that the majority don't. Much like medicines don't resolve in everyone the medical conditions they are used for.
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The point stands that there are many people I know who where behind for reasons of learning disabilities and over came them, or that they where better able at a different age than normal to become a reader.

I would think that this is not a truly minuscule portion of the population that are behind in early grades.
 
ponderingturtle said:
How strong is the correlation between being a poor reader in first grade and being a poor reader in high school? It certainly not 100% as we show that it is simply not universaly true.
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I'll ask for details tonight. It may be a couple of days before I post them, and when I do I will put them in the Education forum.
 
ponderingturtle said:
The point stands that there are many people I know who where behind for reasons of learning disabilities and over came them, or that they where better able at a different age than normal to become a reader.

I would think that this is not a truly minuscule portion of the population that are behind in early grades.
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And there are many people I know who fit my claim. The point being that I will trust studies over whatever number of anecdotes you put forth. But as I haven't actually cited the studies, you are not obligated to accept my claim.

I'll find them and let you know.
 
hgc said:
Not to sound like I'm arguing both sides, but "not 100%" isn't a real useful basis for evaluation. What happens before or after the 1st day of 1st grade may be important, but 1st grade, and often Kindergarden, is the first crack at teaching kids that the public education system has. Having said that, addressing what makes poor kids 3 years behind in reading already when they get to 4th grade with whatever you can do starting in 1st grade should be an urgent priority for public education in every state.
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My point is at 4th grade I was 3 years behind in reading. Not because of any failures in education but because I was not ready to read then. I caught up and became a better than average reader.

Now what percentage of those individuals are like me and what ones are not?
 
Crossbow said:
Anyone else remember way back when 'Eddie Murphy' was the bad guy and 'Bill Cosby' was the good guy?

And now, they have reversed these roles.

Murphy is doing children's movies and Cosby is having to defend his language.

Strange tidings indeed!
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Reminds me of a comedian, circa late 1980s?, who said, "Aerosmith is off drugs, Alice Cooper plays golf, and half the Partridge Family are in re-hab. Maybe I've been spinning the wrong record albums backwards!"
 
Ah the gospel of JREF: "I have a study" :rolleyes: ;)

Just yanking your chain - well OK mostly. I do think that, in general, just because a given study seems to indicate or "prove" something doesn't make it a lock to be true - although (all things being equal) sure, it would normally carry more weight than the "well in my case" kind of thing.

Having said that, I wouldn't have a problem believing that the majority of peopel who are behind in reading skills in 1st grade remain so for life....but having said THAT, I seriously question the "regardless of efforts at remediation" remark. Such efforts can and I would wager often do make a huge diff. How much or how often is of course very hard to say....

And no, I don't have a study and don't care if anyone believes me. And yes I know I have several gramatical errors in this post. Back off. :cool:
 
bigred said:
Ah the gospel of JREF: "I have a study" :rolleyes: ;)

Just yanking your chain - well OK mostly. I do think that, in general, just because a given study seems to indicate or "prove" something doesn't make it a lock to be true -
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Never suggested it did.


bigred said:
although (all things being equal) sure, it would normally carry more weight than the "well in my case" kind of thing.
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Without question.


bigred said:
Having said that, I wouldn't have a problem believing that the majority of peopel who are behind in reading skills in 1st grade remain so for life....but having said THAT, I seriously question the "regardless of efforts at remediation" remark. Such efforts can and I would wager often do make a huge diff.
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Fortunately, the professionals (and I am not counting myself among them) do not reach their conclusions through wagers or through what seems likely.

bigred said:
How much or how often is of course very hard to say....
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Which is, of course, the reason there are studies.


bigred said:
And no, I don't have a study and don't care if anyone believes me.
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I'm offended that my opinion does not matter more to you.


bigred said:
And yes I know I have several gramattical errors in this post. Back off. :cool:
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I wager you read poorly in first grade...

:)
 
Garrette said:
Ah. So the confusion was in my wording. Apologies. I did not mean to imply (as the studies do not imply) that NO child who is behind in reading in first grade ever catches up. I meant it in the normal sense that the majority don't. Much like medicines don't resolve in everyone the medical conditions they are used for.
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FWIW, I took it the way you meant it. :)
 
Other than myself, is there anyone else here who feels Cosby's views hold some validity and have had a positive impact on the black community?

Very anecdotal here, but I dated an African American whose family really liked his rap. I lived in Chicago, Jesse-Jackson-land, where poor blacks are preached to by the good Reverend since kindergarten that they are victims of white oppression and told they have low self-esteem stemming from slavery.

In fact, the Million-Man March was to promote the participation of the black male in the family structure.
 
I think the majority, and even perhaps all, of Cosby's points have validity.

It's harder to tell about a positive impact, though I think the mere fact that it has opened the door to the acceptance of both responsibility and criticism is in itself a huge positive.
 
steverino said:
Other than myself, is there anyone else here who feels Cosby's views hold some validity and have had a positive impact on the black community?
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While I think Cosby's views hold some validity, I question whether he's had any significant effect on the black community. Is he really that relevant these days? Was he ever?
 
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