Can this qualify as a challenge?

[Psiload]

Dear Loss Leader and Fellow Forumers,


I wrote earlier that in 1982, I was monitoring world events and looking for a disease known as GOTACURAL. Nothing. In 1984, still nothing. Then, that year, when AIDS was becoming a great concern, it came to my mind that GOT (past tense of get) may be the A in AIDS which stands for “Acquired” and which is synonymous to “got”. In 1986, I asked the spirit if the disease GOTACURAL He gave in 1979 is AIDS and He said yes. So it’s a confirmation directly from the one who gave the name GOTACURAL that the disease is none other than AIDS.



The medium is a woman by the name of Maria Liwayway Alvaran in the province of Bulacan in the Philippines, aged nearing her 70s. Her body is appropriated by a spirit. Is this what is called “channeling” or “in-dwelling”? I do not know what the term is used to describe it.

Our experience is like this: The spirit of the woman leaves her body through the fontanel with a sound like blowing through a pipe. Then the spirit of Ama, the name we call Him, enters the body through the fontanel also and with the same kind of sound. So there is manifestation of the exit of the spirit of the woman and entry of the spirit of Ama. One may put his ears near the fontanel and be able to hear the sound coming from that area and not from the mouth or nose.

Once the spirit of Ama is in the body of the woman, He greets the listeners with a low, baritone voice of a man and not that of the female voice of the woman. I noticed also that the wisdom and mannerisms of Ama and the woman are different. So the woman is not impersonating anybody but it is a different spirit that is in her body and using it to talk to people.

The listeners present call this communication with the spirit as session. The sessions happen usually during Sunday and during the day. There maybe one, two or three sessions during the day which last up to maybe 45 minutes. I noticed that there are times when my 90-minute TDK tape is about to end, that is the time when the spirit ends the session. One side of the tape is 45 minutes.

Before the session ends, the spirit of Ama gives his blessing to the people and then leaves the body with a similar sound like earlier which comes from the fontanel. After Ama’s spirit has exited, then the spirit of the woman re-enters her body with that familiar sound.

Since I am in Australia now, I am not present during the sessions. But I receive copies of tapes of the sessions held. Now, the sessions are becoming less frequent and are much shorter (maybe less than five minutes). It seems that we are being prepared and conditioned to the eventual cutoff of communication with Ama. I guess this will happen when the woman dies.

My last communication with the spirit of Ama was in April 2005 when I went to the Philippines. A part of the session can be found in what I posted in alt.religion.christian under the title “The truth about Jesus and Mary Magdalene” on May 25, 2006.

I cannot hear Him nor talk to Him unless I go to the Philippines and attend the sessions. However, I know that the spirit of Ama is present with the “knocking” of lizards or geckoes, at home and at work. That is the signal that He told us that He is present and watching over us.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

Hey, Aristeo...

She's for sale. A real peach. Make me an offer.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear GzuzKryzt and Fellow Forumers,

Personally, I do not deny the existence of spirits. But I have seen no valid evidence yet as to their existence. A successful Challenge of yours might convince me otherwise, PeaceCrusader.

Therefore, and with the neat USD 1,000,000 reward in mind, please consider refraining from preaching and post here:

1. A clearly worded brief exact description of the claim.
2. A success/failure scenario.
3. A protocol proposal.

I am glad that you believe that spirits exist. We just have to be discerning of the spirits we listen to or communicate with for there are good and evil spirits. I believe that the spirit of Ama who we talk to is a good spirit.

Could the experiences of the listeners be considered as evidences of the existence of the spirit of Ama? Could the sound of the exit and entry of spirits at the fontanel and the tape recordings of the sessions also be considered as evidences?

Since Jeff Wagg said that the birth and death dates of Jesus that the spirit revealed are not testable, and that information revealed by the spirit about sealed boxes are testable, I sent a letter to the woman medium in the Philippines to ask the spirit of Ama whether He would like to undergo such test. If the spirit says yes, then I will apply for the challenge.

The challenge could be that 25 labeled items be placed in a box and sealed. The naming of all the 25 labeled items by the spirit will constitute success. Less than this will be considered as failure. The test has to be done in the Philippines in the presence of the public and as many representatives from JREF as it could send, video-taped, even televised if you wish. Could you please suggest a protocol?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Doc Daneeka and Fellow Forumers,

After having just read this entire thread through, i must note that the skeptics in this room seem to display patience that boggles the mind. Kudos to you, i guess.

There's a small leather bag sitting on my desk, in my bedroom. In it is a small object, easily recognisable. If the spirit can tell me what it is at some point during the next week, i will become a theist.

Sadly for god, this 'spirit' won't accept this challenge. Sadly for god, i'll end up remaining an atheist. Woe unto my soul, lol.

I am very glad that you have left room for the possibility of becoming a theist. As I wrote in the previous post, if the spirit accepts the challenge of say, naming all 25 labeled items in a sealed box, then would that be sufficient to make you a theist? Success is naming them all correctly and failure is anything less than 25 correct.

I can say that He does not only know what are inside a sealed box but He also knows everything about you. Could you believe that? Not only what is outside your attire but also what is underneath your attire and also what is inside your body.

I just wish that He accepts the challenge to prove to you and to all what He can do. God is still waiting for the prodigal son to come back to Him.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[Moochie]

Dear Doc Daneeka and Fellow Forumers,

I am very glad that you have left room for the possibility of becoming a theist. As I wrote in the previous post, if the spirit accepts the challenge of say, naming all 25 labeled items in a sealed box, then would that be sufficient to make you a theist? Success is naming them all correctly and failure is anything less than 25 correct.

Excuse me, but the Doc was referring to his own challenge, as shown below:

Originally Posted by Doc Daneeka

There's a small leather bag sitting on my desk, in my bedroom. In it is a small object, easily recognisable. If the spirit can tell me what it is at some point during the next week, i will become a theist.

Ask your imaginary friend to tell what is inside Doc's leather bag. And soon!

I can say that He does not only know what are inside a sealed box but He also knows everything about you. Could you believe that?

Nope

Not only what is outside your attire but also what is underneath your attire and also what is inside your body.

Your imaginary friend is a freak, and a dirty one, at that.

Please demonstrate some evidence of this. Until you do, we'll continue to consider you a troll.

I just wish that He accepts the challenge to prove to you and to all what He can do. God is still waiting for the prodigal son to come back to Him.

See above. Show evidence, not pious blather, please.

M.

 

[Burner]

Dear Doc Daneeka and Fellow Forumers,



I am very glad that you have left room for the possibility of becoming a theist. As I wrote in the previous post, if the spirit accepts the challenge of say, naming all 25 labeled items in a sealed box, then would that be sufficient to make you a theist? Success is naming them all correctly and failure is anything less than 25 correct.

Hey give the good spirit some slack will you? 25 is an overkill. If he can guess 5 it would be enough to make me a beliver.

 

[Ocelot]

Woo hoo. If sending in a video witnessed by members of the public could win me $1m dollars I'm in.

Now lets discuss specifics of the test. Do you want VHS or Betamax, PAL Seecam or NTSC?

On a completely unrelated note are there any members of the public out there who'd like to earn a thousand dollars for a little acting work.

 

[Loss Leader]

I wrote earlier that in 1982, I was monitoring world events and looking for a disease known as GOTACURAL. Nothing. In 1984, still nothing. Then, that year, when AIDS was becoming a great concern, it came to my mind that GOT (past tense of get) may be the A in AIDS which stands for “Acquired” and which is synonymous to “got”. In 1986, I asked the spirit if the disease GOTACURAL He gave in 1979 is AIDS and He said yes. So it’s a confirmation directly from the one who gave the name GOTACURAL that the disease is none other than AIDS.

PC - the prophesy was that a disease known as GOTACURAL would arise and be untreatable. I understand that you later came to believe that Gotacural was AIDS. I understand that this voice told you Gotacural was AIDS. However, none of this changes the fact that AIDS has never been known as Gotacural. The prophesy said that is the name it would be known by. It is not and never has been. The prophesy was wrong.

Now, reading your description of these seances, it appears that you are a very credulous person. You accept that this woman actually is taken over by a spirit because she looks and sounds different and because a whooshing sound comes from her head and not her mouth. However, you must realize that if someone wanted to create such a scene as a joke or a hoax, it would be very easy. With the mallest bit of preparation, a well-hidden confederate, and the use of darkness, anyone who wanted to fool you could recreate that exact scene.

If these performances are identical to what they would look like if they were fake, how do you know they are real? Have you ever received a true, verifiable prediction about the future? Remember, you did not receive the Gotacural prediction, that happened in 1979 and you only became interested in 1980. Has the spirit ever said something about the future that could not be known or guessed? If not, what is the difference between the spirit's words and those of someone who was purposefully attempting to fool you?

An example: Someone tells me that there is an island where dinosaurs are running free. He tells me that I don't have to take his word and shows me a home movie of a T. Rex rampaging around in the rain. Now, it so happens, that I have seen the movie Jurassic Park. That movie showed the same thing but the director (a certain S. Spielberg) admits it was entirely fake.

Why should I believe the new footage of a T. Rex? It is identical to faked footage of a T. Rex. I want and deserve more proof.

You really must start questioning whether these seances are faked. What might this woman gain by faking them? What might she not be able to do if they are faked?

Ask questions.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Dear GzuzKryzt and Fellow Forumers,



I am glad that you believe that spirits exist. We just have to be discerning of the spirits we listen to or communicate with for there are good and evil spirits. I believe that the spirit of Ama who we talk to is a good spirit.

Could the experiences of the listeners be considered as evidences of the existence of the spirit of Ama? Could the sound of the exit and entry of spirits at the fontanel and the tape recordings of the sessions also be considered as evidences?

Since Jeff Wagg said that the birth and death dates of Jesus that the spirit revealed are not testable, and that information revealed by the spirit about sealed boxes are testable, I sent a letter to the woman medium in the Philippines to ask the spirit of Ama whether He would like to undergo such test. If the spirit says yes, then I will apply for the challenge.

The challenge could be that 25 labeled items be placed in a box and sealed. The naming of all the 25 labeled items by the spirit will constitute success. Less than this will be considered as failure. The test has to be done in the Philippines in the presence of the public and as many representatives from JREF as it could send, video-taped, even televised if you wish. Could you please suggest a protocol?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

I'd like to state for the record that since I have not seen valid evidence for spirits, I conclude that they do not exist, but I am willing to be convinced otherwise. In other words: I neither believe nor don't believe in spirits.



The experiences of the listeners and any tape recording will not qualify as valid evidence. Experiences are subjective and tapes are too easily tampered with. Please note that I do not imply one would do that PeaceCrusader, I simply count it as a possibility.



A brief protocol proposal:

1. Person A prepares 10 boxes with 10 different items, the boxes are numbered 01 - 10. Person A notes on a sheet of paper what item is in what box. Person A seals the boxes and deposits them on a table in a room. No one else is present in said room. The table is monitored with a video camera. Person A must not have contact with anyone else involved in this test before the conclusion of step #5.
2. Person B enters the room accompanied by the "medium".
3. The "spirit" "contacts" the "medium" with the information about the content of the boxes. A time limit for this part of the test is set, e.g. two hours = 12 minutes on average per box. The "medium" is not allowed to touch the boxes.
4. Person B notes what information the "spirit" gave about which particular box.
5. The "medium" will tell Person B when the "contact" is finished. If the test duration exceeds the pre-agreed time limit, Person B will declare the test finished.
6. After that, Person A will reenter the room and both lists will be checked for matches. Six or more matches will mean a successful test. Five and less matches will mean an unsuccessful test.

There are a couple of things which need to be addressed first:

a. Who will apply for the Challenge? Only the test participant is allowed to apply, as stated here: http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html
Since this seems to be the "medium", this means she would have to apply herself.
b. The protocol is mutually agreed upon between JREF and the applicant. I am neither a representative of JREF, nor are you, PeaceCrusader, the one who will apply.
c. Only after a proper application is received and accepted, JREF and the applicant can negotiate a test location, a test date and the protocol.
d. There's probably more details to work out. For the sake of brevity I only addressed the most important points.

I based these suggestions on more than three years of experience with the JREF Challenge as a JREF Forum Member; including my time as a lurker. Only a JREF Representative can make definite calls on what is appropriate: challenge@randi.org

As usual, productive suggestions are appreciated.

 

[Tricky]

Dear Doc Daneeka and Fellow Forumers,

I am very glad that you have left room for the possibility of becoming a theist.

Actually, Peace, that is one of the significant differences between skeptics and believers.

We can not only leave room for the possibility of becoming a theists, like Doc Daneeka, we can describe some things that would actually convince us.

Can you or your believer friends either allow room for, or describe what would make them embrace atheism?

 

[Moochie]

Can you or your believer friends either allow room for, or describe what would make them embrace atheism?

My money's on NO! A resounding NO!

M.

 

[Tricky]

My money's on NO! A resounding NO!

I've asked this question a number of times, and you're usually right, but I recall one hilarious exception. What would make this logic-challenged beliver was:
"If I died and discovered there was no afterlife."

 

[Moochie]

I've asked this question a number of times, and you're usually right, but I recall one hilarious exception. What would make this logic-challenged beliver was:
"If I died and discovered there was no afterlife."

Oh my

Priceless!

M.

 

[Jackalgirl]

A brief protocol proposal:

I think this sounds pretty good. I'd recommend an addition, tho: I think it would be a good idea, though, if the medium doesn't have to enter the room (i.e., have two separate rooms). I'd also recommend that there be a "pool" of objects -- say, 20, and that the ten selected items be randomly determined. As Gruz mentions, the protocol will need to take special care that the person setting up the test objects/boxes will need to /proveably/ not be able to have any contact with the medium and her observer(s) (perhaps via the presence of an observer not affiliated with whomever the test-setter-upper is affiliated with and, of course, lots of videotaping).

 

[Doc Daneeka]

Doc, since you're a 'Doc' it would likely be a stethescope, in your bag.

[qimg]http://www.tonystrading.co.uk/pix/annuals/1960s/1964/drkildare64.jpg[/qimg]

Good guess. Except that i am not a doctor

 

[Doc Daneeka]

Dear Doc Daneeka and Fellow Forumers,



I am very glad that you have left room for the possibility of becoming a theist.

Oh, I'm really not worried about that. The object in this bag isn't something that one would easily guess.

As I wrote in the previous post, if the spirit accepts the challenge of say, naming all 25 labeled items in a sealed box, then would that be sufficient to make you a theist? Success is naming them all correctly and failure is anything less than25 correct.

Not really. I'd be MUCH more impressed were I told what is in this particular bag, rather than some other experiment where I don't know the details.

I can say that He does not only know what are inside a sealed box but He also knows everything about you. Could you believe that? Not only what is outside your attire but also what is underneath your attire and also what is inside your body.

If you say so. I await the moment where you tell me what is in the bag. I don't really give a bleep how you do it.

I just wish that He accepts the challenge to prove to you and to all what He can do. God is still waiting for the prodigal son to come back to Him.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

Sigh.

I'm willing to bet good money that the 'spirit' decides not to say what's in my small leather bag. I don't much care what the reason is. I just know that it won't hazard a guess.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Doc Daneeka and Fellow Forumers,

Oh, I'm really not worried about that. The object in this bag isn't something that one would easily guess.

Not really. I'd be MUCH more impressed were I told what is in this particular bag, rather than some other experiment where I don't know the details.

If you say so. I await the moment where you tell me what is in the bag. I don't really give a bleep how you do it.

You would only be the one who would be satisfied if the spirit names the object in your bag. On the other hand, many, many people would be satisfied if the spirit is able to name what are in sealed boxes as Jeff Wagg suggested and the protocol suggested by several other forumers.

Would it be all right with you to be one of those many, many people?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear GzuzKryzt and Jackalgirl and Fellow Forumers,

Thank you for your suggested protocols. I wish JREF takes into consideration your suggestions if the spirit agree to the test. I also wish that all of you be present during the test.

Hopefully, I will receive next week by e-mail or week after next by snail mail the reply of the spirit. I will immediately let you know of His reply.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Tricky and Fellow Forumers,

I've asked this question a number of times, and you're usually right, but I recall one hilarious exception. What would make this logic-challenged beliver was:
"If I died and discovered there was no afterlife."

I remember the spirit telling us that for one who already has accepted God and suddenly turns around and denies His existence is something like that he is out of his mind. However, one who denies God and becomes a believer, not only will God be happy for the return of this prodigal son but also happiness of other people who will see his turnaround.

Do you deny that there is an afterlife? If you wish, I will repost here what I posted in Unexplained-Mysteries about the topic--why I believe in an afterlife.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[Jackalgirl]

Dear GzuzKryzt and Jackalgirl and Fellow Forumers,

Thank you for your suggested protocols. I wish JREF takes into consideration your suggestions if the spirit agree to the test. I also wish that all of you be present during the test.

PC, I honestly say (I am not joking here) that I would be very happy to be present at a properly-conducted test. However, I'm afraid that I won't be able to come, most likely -- I'm in Japan and, due to current circumstances, won't be leaving anytime soon. But thanks very kindly for the invite. I'll be following this with great interest. : )

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Loss Leader and Fellow Forumers,

PC - the prophesy was that a disease known as GOTACURAL would arise and be untreatable. I understand that you later came to believe that Gotacural was AIDS. I understand that this voice told you Gotacural was AIDS. However, none of this changes the fact that AIDS has never been known as Gotacural. The prophesy said that is the name it would be known by. It is not and never has been. The prophesy was wrong.

Regarding GOTACURAL, the spirit already confirmed in 1986 that it is AIDS that He named GOTACURAL in 1979. If you think it is not, it is up to you. Only you can convince yourself if it is true or not.

Now, reading your description of these seances, it appears that you are a very credulous person. You accept that this woman actually is taken over by a spirit because she looks and sounds different and because a whooshing sound comes from her head and not her mouth. However, you must realize that if someone wanted to create such a scene as a joke or a hoax, it would be very easy. With the mallest bit of preparation, a well-hidden confederate, and the use of darkness, anyone who wanted to fool you could recreate that exact scene.

If these performances are identical to what they would look like if they were fake, how do you know they are real? Have you ever received a true, verifiable prediction about the future? Remember, you did not receive the Gotacural prediction, that happened in 1979 and you only became interested in 1980. Has the spirit ever said something about the future that could not be known or guessed? If not, what is the difference between the spirit's words and those of someone who was purposefully attempting to fool you?

An example: Someone tells me that there is an island where dinosaurs are running free. He tells me that I don't have to take his word and shows me a home movie of a T. Rex rampaging around in the rain. Now, it so happens, that I have seen the movie Jurassic Park. That movie showed the same thing but the director (a certain S. Spielberg) admits it was entirely fake.

Why should I believe the new footage of a T. Rex? It is identical to faked footage of a T. Rex. I want and deserve more proof.

You really must start questioning whether these seances are faked. What might this woman gain by faking them? What might she not be able to do if they are faked?

Ask questions.

Our sessions with the spirit usually happen not in darkness but in the light of day. Actually, there is no electricity in the house where she lives now.

Did you know that it took me eleven years before I believe in that spirit? From 1983 to 1994, I doubted that spirit even though I was able to talk to Him, tape recorded our sessions with Him, transcribed the tape recordings, saw the fulfillment of His prophecies, His knowing us and other people. I only became a believer in 1994 when I discovered several events in my life which could not have happened if God was not involved in them.

Did you know that the woman would have been very rich had she charged people who came for healing of their ailments? Many were healed because they had faith. Did you also know that the woman has been blind since she was two years old?

Before 1982, I was told of people lining up on the street in Metro Manila or in her hut in the province who came for healing. It was in 1982 that I read in a March 1980 issue of the magazine about her and the Voice. It was in 1983 that I first came to observe and listen to her and the Voice.

If you want prophecies that will happen in the future, how about the following:
Would you believe that World War III will start not in the Middle East but in the Philippines? At Spratly Islands in particular.
Would you believe that human babies (plural) will be born with three eyes?
Would you believe that human baby (or babies) will be born with horns?
Would you believe that woman (or women) will give birth to kitten and cat (or cats) will give birth to human being (human beings)?
I am not sure if the spirit meant more than one or only one baby, woman, cat, and human being, that is why I put in parentheses the plural form. However, the three-eyed human babies, I am sure that there will be several of them and I believe, they will be born in different parts of the world. These are signs and warnings. Who do you think can make these happen?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo