Kent Hovind gets 10 years

[RenaissanceBiker]

Elvis had a black belt in karate.

 

[Basilio]

Gene,

let's put it this way, its the difference between someone who went to a school of music or a conservatory for up to 6-7 years (Bs. through Phd.) who can be expected to have a certain level of expertise, and say, Britiney Spears if she was awarded an Honorary doctorate of music. Both could insist on being addressed as Dr., but who would you trust to analyse a Brahms symphony or even compose a fourfold Amen?

 

[AgingYoung]

Basilio,

An honorary degree is just that. There's no course of work expected for its award. The point has never been the quality of the degree. You cross the line of reason when you insist it is a 'fake' degree. Additionally you ignore civil authority's right to govern private enterprise and grant authority as it sees fit.

Points concerning the facility or the degree's quality are irrelevant to the right of Patriot to award a degree either legally or by reason of the meaning of what a degree is.

If there is some law that you don't agree with you have every right to attempt to change it; you become a self-appointed authority if you want to disregard civil authority. It is very funny that some agree with the law to prosecute Hovind for tax evasion yet act as if the legal authority of the State of Colorado doesn't exist. Self appointed arbitrators of reality. Little gods.

At issue is what authority you hold yourself accountable to. For some the only authority they hold themselves accountable to is themselves. That perspective worsens when they expect they have any right to determine reality for others. Self-appointed saviours of the world.

Gene

 

[AgingYoung]

..., my neighbours chicken farm could pass for the British House of Lords.

Only if there are a lot of little peckers running loose.

Gene

 

[AgingYoung]

Questioninggeller,

You understand me correctly. .....

The intent to defraud is clear. Especially given his past claims and current bouts with tax law.
....

You never substantiated your allegation Hovind is guilty of fraud by nondisclosure. You haven't put a basis behind any point of concealment...

• Did he have any duty to include it?
• Did he conceal ‘christian’ with the intent to defraud?
• Did his audience have any reason not to know Hovind’s degree was in ‘christian’ education?
• Did anyone suffer damage because of this concealment?

...and now you want to complain that you're tired? Come, come, my little demigod. Don't morph back in to your human form just yet. It might be more productive if you would finish one point before moving on to irrelevancy.

1)This is getting tiresome. You are repeating the same thing. You are not making any point related to academics.

You think you have a right to level baseless charges against someone? Clearly you think you're above the law.

Gene

 

[AgingYoung]

It's not a question of who has the right to award a degree, it's a question of which degrees have evidence of being of value.

Causing ambiguities by shifting the term 'valid' to 'value' has a tendency to discredit your reasoning.

Gene

 

[AgingYoung]

Hastur,

People want to harp on the significance of accreditation. Accrediting agencies are simply private enterprises that most likely are entrenched with educators in an effort to cover their behinds. They do that by setting standards that institutions of higher learning can request to be judged by. I look at the matter similar to infant baptism. The child is baptized so its fate is sealed; it's going to heaven no matter what it does. As a side note I graduated from an accredited school also.

In the real world where a certain level of competency is demanded people take exams after they acquire a degree. That is a more practical method to see if a football player is competent in his field. Examples are the bar or the Can'tPassAgain exam. Still further in fields that are dynamic and a certain level of competency is required people are required to do continuing education. I know accounting has that requirement to keep your license.

I have never made the point of the value of Hovind's degree. In spite of the irrelevancy I've already admitted it isn't on par with others. It is entirely possible that his degree is of equal value as some from accredited schools. Either way the point is irrelevant.

Gene

 

[wahrheit]

AgingYoung, you can use the small button next to the Quote button if you want to reply to several posts in a row. Clicking on each of those

Multi-Quote

buttons will automagically quote all selected posts into your reply after clicking the normal Quote button on the last post you want to quote.

 

[Questioninggeller]

Basilio,
An honorary degree is just that. There's no course of work expected for its award. The point has never been the quality of the degree. You cross the line of reason when you insist it is a 'fake' degree.

What? The point is the quality of the degree. No one here has said that Colorado doesn't allow Patriot to operate. Colorado does let the place exist turn out mail religious degrees.

Where did he "insist it is a 'fake' degree"? No one is making that claim. I am saying its "worthless," which is different than fake.

Questioninggeller,

You never substantiated your allegation Hovind is guilty of fraud by nondisclosure. You haven't put a basis behind any point of concealment...

Did you read the last couple of pages of my posts? I'll repeat:

From http://drdino.com/ (the bottom of the homepage and at the bottom of EVERY page at Drdino.com.)

Creation Science Evangelism was started in 1989 by Dr. Kent Hovind. Kent Hovind is one of the most requested speakers on the Creation and Evolution topic in churches and Universities all over the world. Dr. Hovind served as an educator for many years teaching Biology, Anatomy, Physical Science, Mathematics, Earth Science, and many other sciences. Dr. Hovind has debated the Creation and Evolution controversy over 100 times all over the world, in many large Universities, and on thousands of radio talk shows.

Not a word about unaccredited or Christian Education. Reading that gives the impression he studied science. He did not.

Or video from his webpage http://drdino.com/downloads.php :

For example, http://drdino.activeforjesus.com/videos/seminar2_300k.wmv

In that video he claims he has a "PhD in Education" not an unaccredited "Christian Education" degree.

Did he have any duty to include it?

You mean other than a moral duty to be truthful?

Yes, in many states, such as Florida, where he lives, is jailed, and sells his crap. Again read the bottom of Drdino.com not a word about the religious nature of his degree or lack of accreditation.

Title XLVI
CRIMES Chapter 817
FRAUDULENT PRACTICES View Entire Chapter

817.567 Making false claims of academic degree or title.--

(1) No person in the state may claim, either orally or in writing, to possess an academic degree, as defined in s. 1005.02, or the title associated with said degree, unless the person has, in fact, been awarded said degree from an institution that is:

(a) Accredited by a regional or professional accrediting agency recognized by the United States Department of Education or the Commission on Recognition of Postsecondary Accreditation;

(b) Provided, operated, and supported by a state government or any of its political subdivisions or by the Federal Government;

(c) A school, institute, college, or university chartered outside the United States, the academic degree from which has been validated by an accrediting agency approved by the United States Department of Education as equivalent to the baccalaureate or postbaccalaureate degree conferred by a regionally accredited college or university in the United States;

(d) Licensed by the Commission for Independent Education pursuant to ss. 1005.01-1005.38 or exempt from licensure pursuant to chapter 1005; or

(e) A religious seminary, institute, college, or university which offers only educational programs that prepare students for a religious vocation, career, occupation, profession, or lifework, and the nomenclature of whose certificates, diplomas, or degrees clearly identifies the religious character of the educational program.

(2) No person awarded a doctorate degree from an institution not listed in subsection (1) shall claim in the state, either orally or in writing, the title "dr." before the person's name or any mark, appellation, or series of letters, numbers, or words, such as, but not limited to, "Ph.D.," "Ed.D.," "D.N.," or "D.Th.," which signifies, purports, or is generally taken to signify satisfactory completion of the requirements of a doctorate degree, after the person's name.

Hovind does not disclose the religious nature (Christian Education) of his unaccredited degree even though he's a Christian nor does the name "Patriot Bible University" appear anywhere on his Dr Dino webpage. (On a side note, again, Patriot University became Patriot Bible University in 2004.)

Law: http://www.flsenate.gov/statutes/in...atute&Search_String=dr.&URL=CH0817/Sec567.HTM

Did he conceal ‘christian’ with the intent to defraud?

He conceals the truth and gives people the wrong impression that he has studied science at a university. Again just read Dr.Dino.com: he claims to have taught science, claims to have a doctorate, sells Christian science books, and not a word about his "degrees."

Please provide a link from Hovind's webpage where he mentions Patriot and Christian Education regarding his biography.

Or from a website critical of Hovind:

As a citizen of Florida, under Florida State law Hovind can only claim his title if he "clearly identifies the religious character of the educational program"[1] . Hovind rarely does so. For example, the promotional material for a debate video produced by Hovind claims he is "a well-known creation speaker with a PhD in education" [2] Hovind and his staff repeatedly remove the "Christian" part from his degree title. Either he is embarrassed by the term "Christian" (very unlikely) or his is attempting to make his PhD appear to be something it is not.

http://www.kent-hovind.com/doctor/index.htm

Did his audience have any reason not to know Hovind’s degree was in ‘christian’ education?

Two responses:
1) His "audience" is anyone with a computer that can access http://drdino.com/downloads.php Does everyone who accesses that know Hovind's degrees? Well, his website does not mention "Christian Education" or unaccredited.

2) Please provide a link from Hovind's webpage where he mentions Patriot and Christian Education regarding his biography. If you do this it would show that people could find that information from him.

Did anyone suffer damage because of this concealment?

Yes. This affects people's perceptions towards his claims. (They assume he is an authority in evolution and creation.)

More particularly, in April 2001 Jim Holt had Hovind speak before a committee at Arkansas House of Representatives as an "expert on evolution." According to many people, feel free to consult newspapers about this matter (like Don Michael's articles) Hovind's appearance hurt the standing of the legislature that they were so lazy to do fact checking on Hovind's "education"/background.

...and now you want to complain that you're tired? Come, come, my little demigod. Don't morph back in to your human form just yet. It might be more productive if you would finish one point before moving on to irrelevancy.

You need to work on reading comprehension.

You think you have a right to level baseless charges against someone? Clearly you think you're above the law.

Gene

Everyone here has explained the flaws in your argument.

Time for you to start supporting your claims:
1) Show me 2 videos that Hovind lets his audience know the full status of his degrees. (Link to them)
2) Show me the law where someone with an unaccredied degree can make recommendations for cancer treatment.
3) Show me evidence that Patriot University graduates do quality academic work.
4) Provide a link from Hovind's webpage where he mentions unaccredited, Patriot and Christian Education regarding his biography.
5) Lastly, you keep saying Hovind does not have "a 'fake' degree." Provide a link/post number where I wrote in this thread his "degree was fake".

Also note you selectively quoted me to avoid addressing my concerns.

 

[AgingYoung]

Having highlighted and citing Florida statute 817.567 (Making false claims of academic degree or title.--) SUBSECTION 2

• (2) No person awarded a doctorate degree from an institution not listed in subsection (1) ...etc.

I have to ask, ‘what was your point?’ If you look back to subsection 1 you will note (as you highlighted)

• (e) A religious seminary, institute, college, or university which offers only educational programs that prepare students for a religious vocation, career, occupation, profession, or lifework, and the nomenclature of whose certificates, diplomas, or degrees clearly identifies the religious character of the educational program.

Could you kindly produce Dr. Hovind's certificate, diploma or degree so we might see if it clearly identifies the religious character of the educational program? Although that's not too likely you could I'm sure if you would it would indicate that Dr. Hovind isn't in violation of the Florida statue 817.567; specifically SUBSECTION 2.

Gene

ps: I enlarged the appropriate words so you might be able to see and comprehend them better.

 

[AgingYoung]

Where did he "insist it is a 'fake' degree"? No one is making that claim.

My own unsupportable position is that Kent needs institutional care. From afar, he looks to be both somewhat dilusional, quite paranoid, and lacking any sense of personal responsibility for his own actions.

It's on record that he thinks the "evul gubbmint" is going to put transponders in people's heads (or hands) to track them wherever they go, etc. He has even trotted out the old bar-code scam more than once, plus the "UFO's are from Satan" line as well. Now it is obvious from the reports recently that he still believes the IRS (i.e. evul gubbmint) is out to get him again, by subverting the law, courts & jury, etc. How paranoid does he have to act before it is plainly obvious where his head is at?

And he has been into the scam industry for decades now. Right from the very start, with his fake degrees from "Patriot University" (and Storm Door Installation Service), through to the joke that is DinoLand and the scamming of his own trusting employees (part of the reason he is now in gaol). If it wasn't for the obvious delusions above, Kent would definitely be classed as a small-time con-artist and not-very-capable crook. Next stop down would be dud cheque writing...

Oh, sorry - he did that too!

Gene
eta: another slimey reference to fake; there are also countless insinuations to fake.

You just don't get the English language, do you? When has "fake" been the same as "illegal"? It's fake as in all the Anastasias out there even though they are/were all valid human beings.

 

[AgingYoung]

Yes. This affects people's perceptions towards his claims. (They assume he is an authority in evolution and creation.)

This is 'damages?' lol You'd be laughed out on your ear.

Gene

 

[Liken]

I won't get in your guys' way[much], but I'm not afraid to say it: HOVIND'S DEGREE IS FAKE. It might be legal, might come from an "institution" that can legally issue "religious degrees" or whatever, but it is FAKE in the way that I understand the word. It's no more a valid confirmation of his work in the field of education than a degree in chemistry issued by a culinary school.

How can I say that?
A) look at the reputation of the university (it's unaccredited by the authorities whose job it is to authorize accreditation of schools in various disciplines, including education. Moreover, it also meets the definition of a diploma mill. Unaccredited. Diploma. Mill. Period.)
B) look at Hovind's thesis [at least what's available]. It's a JOKE.
C) look at what he says about EVERYTHING--it is painfully obvious that he is NOT an educated person in any field other than lying. He is NOT a scholar of anything other than ignorance.

He is not a doctor of education. Yet he calls himself a doctor. Thus he is a liar. And a FAKE.

Go ahead and argue semantics and legalities AgeingYoung, you're embarrassing yourself by sticking up for a convicted criminal with no credentials of any REAL kind.

 

[Chris Haynes]

...Go ahead and argue semantics and legalities AgeingYoung, you're embarrassing yourself by sticking up for a convicted criminal with no credentials of any REAL kind.

Especially since Hovind is in jail not for buying a college degree, but for tax fraud, plus threats and filing bogus lawsuits against IRS agents.

This has been mentioned before, but the silly rants continue about his education.

 

[Questioninggeller]

Gene
...
ps: I enlarged the appropriate words so you might be able to see and comprehend them better.

You missed the point. According to Hovind's website what school did he get his education from? What subject? He proudly proclaims a PhD, but doesn't say where or what subject. If he does say the subject he leaves out "Christian." If someone wanted to find out where he was educated where on his website do they find out? If someone doesn't read critical news about him, without the school name how can they find out about the nature of the "school"?

If you bothered to quote me in full, I wrote:

Hovind does not disclose the religious nature (Christian Education) of his unaccredited degree even though he's a Christian nor does the name "Patriot Bible University" appear anywhere on his Dr Dino webpage. [edit to add: note the Dr. implies doctorate and Dino implies science]

Again... selective responses. I've reposted what I asked for hoping that you will provide the sources since you ignored this section last time:

Time for you to start supporting your claims:
1) Show me 2 videos that Hovind lets his audience know the full status of his degrees. (Link to them)
2) Show me the law where someone with an unaccredied degree can make recommendations for cancer treatment.
3) Show me evidence that Patriot University graduates do quality academic work.
4) Provide a link from Hovind's webpage where he mentions unaccredited, Patriot and Christian Education regarding his biography.
5) Lastly, you keep saying Hovind does not have "a 'fake' degree." Provide a link/post number where I wrote in this thread his "degree was fake".

Also note you selectively quoted me to avoid addressing my concerns.

Gene
eta: another slimey reference to fake; there are also countless insinuations to fake.

I asked where "he" said it was fake. He referred to Basilio. (I quoted below.) You are SELECTIVELY picking and choosing. Thus, you are not answering anything in particular or being specific.

Basilio,

...You cross the line of reason when you insist it is a 'fake' degree. Additionally you ignore civil authority's right to govern private enterprise and grant authority as it sees fit....

Gene

Gene, I'll ask again. Where did Basilio call it "fake"? You are playing semantics and putting words in people's mouths.

This is 'damages?' lol You'd be laughed out on your ear.

Gene

Selective quote and/or misunderstanding. The damages are to the people who buy his falsehoods about evolution and creation. If you don't believe people accepting Hovind's claims destroys their understanding of reality and rationality YOU are a fool.

If you believe and repeat Hovind's claims in an accredited science PhD program you'll be "laughed out on your ear."

 

[Slimething]

eta: another slimey reference to fake; there are also countless insinuations to fake.

Quote:
You just don't get the English language, do you? When has "fake" been the same as "illegal"? It's fake as in all the Anastasias out there even though they are/were all valid human beings.
[/size]

So, Gene, you are reading my posts. That must mean that you are deliberately avoiding answering them. Why? Is it because I won't allow you to steer this debate?

Let me remind you that your first post in this thread consisted of your taunting all the those celebrating Hovind's sentencing as hypocrites. When many, including myself, explained to you that we were all very happy that the criminal justice system had worked and that there was absolutely no reasonable doubt that Hovind had committed the crimes that he was convicted of, you tried to change your stance. From the view of things, you have, in large part succeeded.

Instead of apologizing like a mature adult, you're now distancing yourself from the argument you started by latching on to the many instances where posters have called Hovind's doctorate a fake or phony document. You are now saying that it is legal but I have pointed out your logical error many times in that fake does not mean illegal. Now, you still claim that it is legal and therefore not fake (despite that being a non-sequitur) but you persist in trying to portray that the degree was awarded under the authority of the State of Colorado, which it demonstrably was not. You maintain that a state board had authorized PBU to issue these fake doctorates but, again, I have corrected you. My many calls for you to provide any shred of evidence that these two erroneous claims are true have been ignored.

What I find particularly amusing is that you've now convinced yourself that you are something of an attorney. Whereas your earlier posts suspiciously resembled those of a flop-house drunk, now you have discovered erudition and, I suspect, a spell-checker. Nevertheless, Gene, you can put lipstick on a pig but that doesn't make it kissable. Your arguments are ludicrous and fallacious and you can't pony up the goods.

Now, let's get back to your original point shall we? How are we all hypocrites, Gene? Address that!

 

[Questioninggeller]

Kent Hovind 2005 Affidavit

It's also worth noting Kent Hovind's 2005 affidavit concerning his tax case includes his biography.

In it Hovind mentions an that he has a "Bachelor of Religious Education" from Midwestern Baptist College (not accredited). However, for some strange reason Hovind says nothing about a PhD or Patriot University to the court. Why is that? He seems so proud of being called Dr (he's listed in the phonebook as such) and its plastered all over his videos and website.

From wiki: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind_2005_Affidavit
From the court: http://205.152.130.14/or_1b.asp?uinstr=2005406964

 

[delphi_ote]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In case anyone is wondering, the above is a legal term meaning "rightful participants in a land acquisition project who shall be the persons eligible wherewith families whose applications for a settlement grant has been approved by the Department of Land Affairs." This principle first entered into American Constitutional law in Ogden v. Saunders and was made famous by its unique interpretation 100 years later by William Howard Taft in Buck v. Bell.

 

[Chris Haynes]

Gene, we are not laughing with you, we are laughing at you.

 

[AgingYoung]

Questioninggeller,

817.567 Making false claims of academic degree or title.--

(1) No person in the state may claim, either orally or in writing, to possess an academic degree, as defined in s. 1005.02, or the title associated with said degree, unless the person has, in fact, been awarded said degree from an institution that is:

Going on down to …..

(e) A religious seminary, institute, college, or university which offers only educational programs that prepare students for a religious vocation, career, occupation, profession, or lifework, and the nomenclature of whose certificates, diplomas, or degrees clearly identifies the religious character of the educational program.

... it is evident Dr. Hovind meets the criteria of 817.567 subsection(1)(e); he is entitled to claim, either orally or in writing or on a web site that he possesses an academic degree. You’ll note there is no requirement to explain the degree in this section to anyone in any manner.

Further reading subsection (2)…

(2) No person awarded a doctorate degree from an institution not listed in subsection (1) shall claim in the state, either orally or in writing,

His degree is listed in subsection (1) hence he is entitled to call himself Dr. Hovind in the state of Florida without having any legal obligation to explain to anyone where he obtained his degree or what it is in. That’s a requirement you are placing on him yet there is no obligation for him to bow to your will.

Where did he "insist it is a 'fake' degree"? No one is making that claim.

Indeed someone has (cited) in addition to numerous people that just chimed in, and in addition to previous insinuations.

Now you created the ambiguity in the first place. The accusation of a fake degree is where you chimed in making this point...

• It is not "valid" in the academic sense. Accreditation is set up by academics (the board that approves schools are from various schools) and control the criteria.

After claiming Dr. Hovind's degree is not valid (implying it is a fake) you claim no one is saying it is fake. Could you make up your mind? Probably not.

You've repeatedly attacked the quality of Dr. Hovind's degree and the awarding institution to justify your baseless and libelous allegation that he's guilty of fraud by nondisclosure. It seems you insist that you can call things that aren't (Dr. Hovind is guilty of fraud by nondisclosure) as though they were and in some magical woo*ish manner reality conforms to your will. Entirely unreal.

I've given you adequate time to make the case. The fact is you've miserably failed at it. You have demonstrated that you imagine you're above the law by accusing Dr. Hovind of a baseless charge in addition to an inability to even read law much less what you yourself write.

I thought it was amusing how some could 'turn on the critical thinking' when necessary yet 'turn it off' to sadistically enjoy the suffering of someone but in your case it seems you can't even turn it on. Well, your free to swim about the primordial slime. Maybe I'll catch you after you evolve a little.

Gene