Kent Hovind gets 10 years


I need to have the material as a refrence for my self and other members of my Skeptics society. We use the library to monitor the actors and their claims, develop counter-rhetoric, and to avoid strawperson arguments.

James Randi was saying that the JREF Library has passesd the 6,000 titles mark. Shermer says theirs is about 2,000 titles, but doesn't have the Audio/DVD/video/film archive that make the JREF collection so valuable.

Some of them are quite expensive, actually, and this is another benefit of the library: members of the society can borrow some of these $400 reference books on alternative medicine instead of having to buy a copy.
 
You certainly take it correctly. There's no way your response above is a rational one.

Gene

How so? It might be vindictive, spiteful, and even un-necessary, but it's entirely rational.

I acknowledge that there's a disconnect between sceptics disapproving of Hovind's creationism and cheering for his arrest regarding something not directly related to that. But I don't give a rat's bottom. The guy deserves it, in and of itself, whatever other creationism beefs we have with him.

I really don't see your problem with this. It's not as though he's gone down for something he didn't do. I would absolutely disapprove of that. He broke the law, knowingly, and got busted. Not agreeing with the law is no excuse! I disagree with the ban on handguns in the UK; doesn't mean I'm going to buy a saturday night special from a bloke in a pub and go shoot cans in my backyard.
 
I need to have the material as a refrence for my self and other members of my Skeptics society. We use the library to monitor the actors and their claims, develop counter-rhetoric, and to avoid strawperson arguments.

James Randi was saying that the JREF Library has passesd the 6,000 titles mark. Shermer says theirs is about 2,000 titles, but doesn't have the Audio/DVD/video/film archive that make the JREF collection so valuable.

Some of them are quite expensive, actually, and this is another benefit of the library: members of the society can borrow some of these $400 reference books on alternative medicine instead of having to buy a copy.

That garbage belonging in a skeptic's library makes sense. Mind if I ask what Skeptic's group's library?
 
That garbage belonging in a skeptic's library makes sense. Mind if I ask what Skeptic's group's library?

BCSkeptics. The library is spread across two private residences, plus a few currently on loan. We also back-issue journals of several other Sketpics' Societies through a courtesy exchange agreement. (although I think we can toss the old Australia Skeptics stuff now that it's on DVD.)
 
I think his reasoning was that he thought what he was doing would get him arrested but he did not think it was illegal.

You are arrested for doing things that are illegal. You would only fear arrest for an action you know to be illegal.

Your argument makes no rational sense.
 
Big Les,

I do agree Hovind broke the law. Earlier in the thread, there seemed to be some confusion about temple tax (Peter getting the coin from the fish's mouth) and taxes to the Roman authority (who's superscription?). Jesus explained you should pay the Romans. Hovind didn't follow those instructions either.

So to your point:
  • How so? It might be vindictive, spiteful, and even un-necessary, but it's entirely rational.

The very disconnect you mention between Hovind being punished for tax evasion and his creationist views moves the perspective from a rational to an emotional one. Several times I've asked skeptics and particularly atheists the same question they asked Jesus; that is (slightly reworded) by what authority do you imagine your perspective should be the prevailing one. In my mind it's a rhetorical question. I suspect the skeptic would appeal to the rightness of reason and logic and expect every thinking person to agree.

I can't for the life of me imagine how enjoying the dilemma or demise of another is a rational response. If the atheist’s authority is reason, why is it they enjoy the destruction of people that oppose them ideologically. It’s a juvenile glee. I wouldn’t expect to see that in people that claim to be governed by reason.

Gene
 
Your mistake is to assume that we skeptics are perfectly rational, logical beings devoid of emotion, humour and wit, in the manner of Spock on Startrek. We know we are not. However we do try to allow that what decisions we make that SHOULD involve critical thinking DO involve critical thinking. Our sheer humaness means we don't always use the same thought processes like train rails and thus arrive at the same answers - you only need go so far as the Politics forum here to see proof of that!

And it is this same diversity that governs our reactions to Kent Hovind's recent fate. Some of us DO respond with "Yay! Let him rot in hell!". Others are a bit milder: "Well if he has only taken his own good book's advice, he would not be in this pickle." Others, such as myself, can see the link between his pathetic stance and his religious beliefs and outpourings. Some of us also have sympathy for his (alleged) employees, the hardworking sycophants Hovind quite possibly bilked of due earnings due to too-low pay rates, and now potentially in jeopardy with the tax department too (unpaid taxes on earnings that Hovind should have deducted). The issue extends a long way beyond Hovind's immediate conviction and gaoling.

Incidentally, Hovind has a LONG list of obviously fraudulent behaviour of all sorts stretching decades back; stuff like the veracity of his (faked) doctorate, and his ongoing lies about his employment history, just to start with. There have been awkward questions about his dealings with employees of his ministry, and at Dinosaurland, and so on.

This is not counting his ludicrous behaviour on the "creationist lecture circuit", of which his gaffes, boobs, chicanery, and glaring mistakes have kept us both highly entertained and with our teeth on edge with his sheer brazen stupidity. Well, stupid until they pass the hat around for "donations" to thank him...a common conman method of separating the money from the marks (see elsewhere about "Kaz" and Sylvia Browne, equally guilty).

More? Hovind has had a $250,000 Challenge out for some time for someone to "prove evolution". It had a ludicrous set of requirements to be met that Hovind obviously knew full well were utter baloney. But a question arises now that he has had his finances exposed in public: If he has never had more than a few thousand dollars to his own name, as he has claimed, how could he have offered a quarter million dollars as a prize for anything? If the money WAS available, he was a knowing liar recently. If it was not, his so-called challenge has been a total fraud because he would have never been able to pay up, and he knew it all along. Do you not agree?

See, this tax case is not Hovind's ONLY instance of wrong-doing. Like Al Capone, it's simply the one they nailed him with.
 
I recently watched a online video of Andreas Heldal-Lund (of Operation Clambake fame) protesting at a gathering of Scientologists. I can't remember the conversation verbatim, but a high-ranking Scientologist leveled a serious charge at him. He said,

"Why do you hate our religion, why do you hate what we believe?"
To which Andreas responded,
"I don't hate you at all. In fact you can believe whatever you want--in Xenu, in whatever--and I don't care, it's the LIES spread by your church that I'm protesting here today."

[That was the spirit of the exchange, anyway]. Andreas made a great point, and what he said parallels how I feel about Hovind.

There's a difference between challenging someone's beliefs and their methodology for spreading those beliefs. When it comes to Hovind I can say that his religion (his "ideology") isn't what truly offends me, it's the way he misappropriates rationality and scientific truth to rally people to that ideology.

As an atheist I disagree ideologically with a lot of Christians, but still manage to maintain a degree of civility, respect and and even friendship with a lot of them. With Hovind, however, I find that he's more than just somebody who tries to follow a religious path that he recognizes as true. On the contrary, he is a true enemy of rational thinking. (Check the source I just posted if you still don't believe me).

Honestly I am relieved that he won't be able to efficiently spread his lies anymore. I feel that spreading knowledge rather than ignorance is an important cause to rally behind--at least as important as rallying behind the laws that govern our society. For that reason even though he's not be going to jail for lying about evidence for evolution his conviction still represents a great victory for rationality.
 
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I can't for the life of me imagine how enjoying the dilemma or demise of another is a rational response. If the atheist’s authority is reason, why is it they enjoy the destruction of people that oppose them ideologically. It’s a juvenile glee. I wouldn’t expect to see that in people that claim to be governed by reason.

For atheists, reason serves humanitarian needs. One important human need is justice in this world, since we don't believe in an afterlife.

Seeing justice served makes us happy: Hovind will not be able to lie and steal from sincere, trusting victims - mostly Christians - for the forseeable future. This is why many Christians are also relieved to see this long sentence: they are his primary target for victimization, and now this predator is being taken out of the picture.

Another human need is reduced suffering and misery. These will be reduced directly while he's behind bars, and indirectly, as it sends a deterrant message to those who are considering similar behavior.
 
Eric Hovind

Just spotted something. This horrible article by the Dakota Voice (a Christian paper http://www.dakotavoice.com/About.html) is completely missing any hint of scientific understanding and on Kent's son, Eric Hovind it says:

Creationist Links Origins to Faith, Everyday Life
May 7, 2006
By Bob Ellis
Dakota Voice

Eric Hovind of Creation Science Evangelism in Pensacola, Florida is in Union Center, South Dakota this weekend explaining why the Genesis account of creation is not only important to Christians, but affects every area of our lives.
...
Eric Hovind is 27 years old and has been doing creation presentations for about eight years. He said he got into this work full time after completing college, and began by presenting at a home for troubled youths. He said that while it would be nice to give a joint presentation with his father Kent, their busy presentation schedule usually has them going in different directions.
...

Source: http://www.dakotavoice.com/200605/20060507_1.html

Anyone know what "college" Eric Hovind claims to have completed? Was it Kent's alma mater (the degree mill in Colorado) or was it simply Eric took the elder's "college seminars" (the childish and ill-informed DVDs and booklets Hovind sells)? Or maybe Eric is just a liar?
 
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I think his reasoning was that he thought what he was doing would get him arrested but he did not think it was illegal.

So what you only have to follow the laws you agree with? What is your point, he knew what he was doing was illegal, he didn't agree with it, and instead of breaking the law to show its injustice he hid what he was doing.

If he really wanted to protest income tax he would have done it much better by not hiding it for 10 years doing everything he could to hide the truth.
 
Your mistake is to assume that we skeptics are perfectly rational, logical beings devoid of emotion, humour and wit, in the manner of Spock on Startrek. We know we are not.

No doubt I was a little abrupt with ...
  • your mistake is to assume that you're always right.
I fully understand people are different and no one is perfect. I can assure you I don’t think that a skeptic is perfect in any sense.

If reason is your standard then you should be able to hold yourself to it in simple matters. I don’t see that much. Reason tells me that if it's fair for one side to present a case it is fair for another to present the other side. No one was reminded this thread is about Hovind's conviction when they attacked special creation. It is hypocrisy and against reason to tell someone to take their defense of special creation to another thread while it’s being attacked here.

It is also unreasonable to expect perfection in Christians when for the most part no one is perfect. Atheists and/or skeptics excuse their hypocrisies as you did. But make no mistake, I don’t for one second think that skeptics are perfectly rational.

Your point…
  • However we do try to allow that what decisions we make that SHOULD involve critical thinking DO involve critical thinking.
is interesting for two reasons. I would expect that the control of your behavior would be one area where critical thinking should come into play. In a forum with perfect strangers it’s a small matter to allow reason to rule. More interesting than that: Since you know you have reasoned conclusions anyone with a differing opinion is considered to have the inferior position. Experience has taught me that I can be wrong. For instance when you pointed to my mistaken impression of the Spock like skeptic I had no such impression. I was only noting the obvious hypocrisy.

Gene
 
Gene, what hypocrisy is it you are referring to? Where are skeptics as people NOT allowed to be pleased that a hypocritical liar and thief like Hovind is justly punished by society? That he happens to be a scam-artist posing as a Christian is hardly relevant. As said above, it is not the Christianity that is so important to us, it is the scam-artist bit. We are always willing to debate religion happily with law-abiding Christians all day and not wish them gaoled if we disagree.

Put it this way: We would be similarly pleased if some of the anti-vaxxers were taken out of the medical scene. Not because they are utter deluded dopes, but because of the damage they are doing to society.
 
Gene, what hypocrisy is it you are referring to? Where are skeptics as people NOT allowed to be pleased that a hypocritical liar and thief like Hovind is justly punished by society?

Your hypocrisy is against reason. You use it when it suits you yet you're not governed by it. For what ever reason a person is destroyed it's not a reasoned response to enjoy it. That enjoyment is a waste of time and serves no reasonable purpose; it is self serving. Further, when you exaggerate your case against Hovind comparing him to Capone you seriously cross the line of rationality. There is no comparison between the illegal activities of Capone and Hovind.

Further it's not reasonable to appeal to the rule of law in Hovind's case yet accuse him of fraud concerning his degree. Patriot Bible University is authorized by the State of Colorado Higher Education Commission to issue religious degrees. You might not think it's a degree of much value yet you cross the line of reason to deny it being a valid degree and further cross that line by denying the state of Colorado has the right to decide it's laws yet insist the federal government has that right with regards to tax law.

Ultimately you don't answer to reason or civil authority unless it suits you. If you would argue, as some atheists do, that there is no right or wrong, that those are value judgments, then it would be unreasonable to expect there was hypocrisy in you. When there are no boundaries it's unreasonable to expect that someone could cross them. That's a very convenient philosophy. Yet since you argue that society has any right to punish anyone, you then must concede that there are some things right and some wrong. There are indeed boundaries. I don't disagree. Moral authority in addition to the authority of reason and also civil authority have boundaries. When you reposition those boundaries where they suit you you’re only pretending they exist.

Gene
 
Your hypocrisy is against reason.

No hypocrisy here, Gene. Just a bunch of skeptics happy to see a conman being locked up. You're going to have to search harder for your targets.

For what ever reason a person is destroyed it's not a reasoned response to enjoy it.

Who's being destroyed? Hovind is being denied his liberty to scam people. That's not destroying anyone.

Patriot Bible University is authorized by the State of Colorado Higher Education Commission to issue religious degrees.

Link, please. I just got back from their website and I did not see PBU as an authorized anything.

You might not think it's a degree of much value...

I'm guilty of that, too. Lesee, when was the last time I heard anyone say "I wanna go to Patriot Bible!"

...yet you cross the line of reason to deny it being a valid degree and further cross that line by denying the state of Colorado has the right to decide it's laws...

That's yours to prove. And, review the use of "its" and "it's", OK?

...yet insist the federal government has that right with regards to tax law.

Non-sequitur alert! Or maybe there is some connection between accreditation and Federal oversight of Federal tax law! Makes one wonder.

Ultimately you don't answer to reason or civil authority unless it suits you. If you would argue, as some atheists do, that there is no right or wrong, that those are value judgments, then it would be unreasonable to expect there was hypocrisy in you. When there are no boundaries it's unreasonable to expect that someone could cross them. That's a very convenient philosophy. Yet since you argue that society has any right to punish anyone, you then must concede that there are some things right and some wrong.

Nice use of straw man argumentation, Gene! This one should be in textbooks. First, you insinuate that Zep is an atheist. Then you go in for the kill as if you were right! Simply amazing!

You also equate "right and wrong" with "legal and illegal". Funny that. I never realized that defacing a coin was morally wrong but you've proven that beyond a shadow.

I am just so overthirlled that you are watching out for our spiritual well-being, Gene. We need not fear of going astray as long as you can pull us back from all this repugnant celebration of our legal system working. :eek:
 
In addition to Slimething's comments...
Your hypocrisy is against reason. You use it when it suits you yet you're not governed by it. For what ever reason a person is destroyed it's not a reasoned response to enjoy it. That enjoyment is a waste of time and serves no reasonable purpose; it is self serving. Further, when you exaggerate your case against Hovind comparing him to Capone you seriously cross the line of rationality. There is no comparison between the illegal activities of Capone and Hovind.
You haven't demonstrated that it is hypocrisy in any way. You are implicitly arguing that being skeptics, "reason" denies us the right to hold any opinions, to have emotions, and to express them. How sad that you have such a limited understanding of skepticism and skeptics. Meanwhile, your whole argument now has no base - work on it.

Incidentally, Al Capone was jailed on tax evasion charges. So was Hovind. But nowhere did I say that made Hovind a murdering gangster. Why don't you read what I wrote, and not what you believe I think.

Further it's not reasonable to appeal to the rule of law in Hovind's case yet accuse him of fraud concerning his degree. Patriot Bible University is authorized by the State of Colorado Higher Education Commission to issue religious degrees. You might not think it's a degree of much value yet you cross the line of reason to deny it being a valid degree and further cross that line by denying the state of Colorado has the right to decide it's laws yet insist the federal government has that right with regards to tax law.
Why is that not reasonable? Would you go to a doctor who turned out to have bought his degree from the same shyster as Hovind did?

Incidentally, Patriot University is NOT recognised anywhere in the USA as a degree-conferring entity. That's been confirmed many times over. Do your research! ;)

Ultimately you don't answer to reason or civil authority unless it suits you. If you would argue, as some atheists do, that there is no right or wrong, that those are value judgments, then it would be unreasonable to expect there was hypocrisy in you. When there are no boundaries it's unreasonable to expect that someone could cross them. That's a very convenient philosophy. Yet since you argue that society has any right to punish anyone, you then must concede that there are some things right and some wrong. There are indeed boundaries. I don't disagree. Moral authority in addition to the authority of reason and also civil authority have boundaries. When you reposition those boundaries where they suit you you’re only pretending they exist.

Gene
Wow, talk about inventing strawmen and hitting them with a flamethrower! Wrong right from the start: I do answer to reason and civil authority, whether it suits me or not. In many practical situations, that has been the case. Thing is, Hovind didn't answer to either, so there he sits in his cell...

And I'll let you keep guessing (because that's all you are doing) if I am an atheist or not. Because until you know for sure, your arguments are pretty much baseless. Consider for a moment: Would you have a different argument if it turned out I was a believer?

Sorry, Gene - you are barking up entirely the wrong tree here. As I said above, I'm pleased Kent Hovind is no longer scamming and bilking people with his home-grown brand of senseless rubbish. And I would have thought that you would be pleased that skeptics were actually taking the side of the oppressed - in this case, the naive Christians who donated to and worked for his crooked schemes, and ultimately whom Hovind defrauded.

Want to rethink your position?
 
Link, please. I just got back from their website and I did not see PBU as an authorized anything.

It is. See: http://www.state.co.us/cche/colleges/authnonpubs.pdf

But it means nothing. That place is NOT accredited by a religious or secular accreditor meaning even TRACS won't vouche for the place.

Allowing a place to issue religious degrees is worthless. Example, Universal Life Church sells California state approved doctorates for $100.00. Religious places are given a exemption from requirements. See: http://www.bppve.ca.gov/directories/religious_exempt.pdf

Your hypocrisy is against reason. You use it when it suits you yet you're not governed by it. For what ever reason a person is destroyed it's not a reasoned response to enjoy it. That enjoyment is a waste of time and serves no reasonable purpose; it is self serving. Further, when you exaggerate your case against Hovind comparing him to Capone you seriously cross the line of rationality. There is no comparison between the illegal activities of Capone and Hovind.

How is it hypocrisy? Why shouldn't people be happy when criminals/conmen are locked up? He was given TEN YEARS to correct his behavior regarding tax law. In the end he decided he wasn't going to obey them.

Then out of a possible 288 YEARS in prison he received only 10 years.
 
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