Siesmic Evidence Proves Inside Job?

Shmendrick1234 said:
Nice try Mackey. The whole point of the Ross/Furlong paper, indeed the whole point of the truth movement is that 9-11 commission and NIST cannot be trusted. I ignore evidence with which I do not agree.You are comparing the seismograph readings to 9/11 commission and finding discrepancies. So did Ross/Furlong. You neglect to compare the seismograph to the radar which is what Ross/Furlong did. and you do so appropriately because you've already shown that the radar data can be off by six to twelve seconds.

All you have done is point out that the 9-11 comission fudged the numbers that I will never consider sources that do not agree with my preconceptions. So what? We knew that. Thank you for showing me the errors I have been making.
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Fixed.
 
apathoid said:
Its actually not a non-sequitir, and I'd lay off of pointing out fallacies because you have yet to correctly identify one, making yourself look more foolish than you already are(if thats possible).
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I try to stay out of the CT threads. Usually its the kind of nonsense that causes blood vessels to burst in your brain. However, I think I'll help Truthseeker out here a little. ;)

If he's going to keep calling out fallacies, non-sequitur is a good choice to pick. All fallacies are some form of non-sequitur logic, the other categories just describe the form of the non-sequitur logic more accurately. If he keep throwing out this one, he's bound to get it right some time. :D
 
TruthSeeker1234 said:
I have shown you photographs of the core, in the rubble, with the cross bracing still there.
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Are you talking about the picture you posted that was annotated by ChristopherA? I didn't see any cross-bracing in that one, could you please point it out?

In the mean time, take a look at the picture you yourself poted in this post, and you can clearly see that the heavy cross-bracing is in the parts that support the construction cranes. Further, in this drawing of a typical WTC floor plan, you can clearly see that the places where those supports were during construction, are elevator shafts. They had to remove the crane supports in order to put elevators in those spaces.

Surely you can see this?
 
TruthSeeker1234 said:
http://worldtradecentertruth.com/volume/200609/SeismicFurlong.doc

I'm seeking serious comment on the merits/demerits of this paper.
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Hello Truthseeker1234:

You obviously have a problem with the controlled demolition
stuff. It seems, that you don´t understand why the buildings
fell. So i also think, that you have a problem with the official
story. On the other hand it brings me to the conclusion, that
you might believe in an involvement of the government.

So let me ask you:
What exactly is your point? Just go back - what do you really
want to know? Take some time to articulate the exact question
you have.

Regards,
Oliver
 
Belz... said:
This just HAS to be a deliberate lie on your part.
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As SelectiveTruthSeeker1234 would say, science requires observations to be explained.

Of course, he can spout whatever crap he likes and expects it to go unchallenged, no requirement for evidence to support it.

He is a a garden variety woo.
 
I think this is the key point.

rwguinn said:
The energy of the collision was indeed absorbed (mostly--there's a large amount of escaped debris evident in the photos), but to absorb the energy, it must move that motion will be absorbed by the foundation...
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The building may have "absorbed" the energy of the impact, but it certainly didn't "store" that energy. Everyone, including the "bomb" witness in the basement said that the building moved on impact. That means the energy of the impact was transferred all the way to the basement -- and it obviously didn't stop there. It would have gone right down through the foundation into the earth... and subsequently would have been picked up by the seismographs.

The experts at LDEO identified the events as "plane impacts." I infer from this that they believe that the events were powerful enough to have been recorded on the seismographs. Just as he was running out to lunch I asked the geophysicist in the office next to me (who studies seismic all day long) if he thinks the seismographs would have picked up the plane impacts. He said it depends on their placement, of course, but almost certainly. He added, "When we're shooting seismic, a cow walking down the line can screw up our results." We're talking different scales of course, but it gives you an idea of the sensitivity of these devices.

The entire argument of the paper is based on the fact that the LDEO seismographs show one event, and the timing of that event appears to be off from the official timeline. I wonder if they determined what size of an explosion would be necessary to create the seismic event recorded by LDEO (and what sort of damage would it have casued to the building) and compared this to the energy released by the plane impact.

There is no point arguing over time discrepancies (which seem to deviate by a few seconds between numerous "reliable" sources) unless the authors can prove that the seismographs would not have picked up the plane impacts.
 
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Originally Posted by TruthSeeker1234
Nice try Mackey. The whole point of the Ross/Furlong paper, indeed the whole point of the truth movement is that 9-11 commission and NIST cannot be trusted
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No, the whole purpose of the paper was an attempt to attribute seimic data to explosions. From the paper's introductory summary:

Only by consideration of the evidence of basement explosions before the
aircraft impacts, as experienced by William Rodriquez and 36 others, can an explanation be found for the fact that the seismic stations recorded seismic events originating from the WTC sites prior to the aircraft impacts. It seems unlikely that Middle Eastern terrorists could have overcome the WTC security and managed this kind of high-level, technological coordination. Do the facts presented here, simple and few, raise the possibility of inside involvement in 9/11/01, both before and after the attack
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The time discrepency has been explained, but that aside, you would need three sets of seismic data for each tower to incorporate explosions; there are only two. Notice also the paper contains seismic data for the collapse of WTC7, but the authors don't touch this. Could the absence of any recorded seismic data for explosions at WTC7 explain their reluctance to go near it?.

Wintertime said:
The experts at LDEO identified the events as "plane impacts." I infer from this that they believe that the events were powerful enough to have been recorded on the seismographs
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Yes, and moreover the oscillations in the building caused by the impacts generate a specific waveform, known as Love waves. These are quite distinct from waveforms generated by explosions.
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I have not read every post on this thread, so apologies if this was answered earlier, but:

If there were explosions (powerful enough to register seismically) seconds before the planes hit, then how come there is no other evidence for those explosions other than this shaky report on seismic findings?

Video was taken of the impacts. Where are those "seconds before" explosions on the video?
People were on the ground: How come none of them reported they "felt shaking seconds before" the planes hit?

And besides:
What kind of idiot conspiracy conjurer would plan for explosives to be in a building they knew would be hit by a large airplane, anyway?
 
If there were explosions (powerful enough to register seismically) seconds before the planes hit, then how come there is no other evidence for those explosions other than this shaky report on seismic findings?
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Actually, there are a litany of eyewitnesses, including William Rodriguez, who saw, heard, felt, and were injured by what they say were explosions, and they say it happened just before the plane hit. The Naudet bros film show lots of damage and powder in the lobbies of the buildings, certainly consistant with explsosions in the sub basements. There was a huge electrical generator that was blown apart in the basement too.

All of this is evidence.

I think the fact that both radar and seismic data are both locked to UTC makes the times far more accurate than others would have us think.
 
TroofPoofer, if Mr. Rodriguez was in the basement at the time the plane hit, he prolly did not actual see it hit, no?

How about jetfuel fell trough the elevatorshafts all the way down, and maybe elevators that where cut from the cables, exploding on the levels below?

Al this before the shockwave travelled down trough the building?
 
TruthSeeker1234 said:
Actually, there are a litany of eyewitnesses, including William Rodriguez, who saw, heard, felt, and wer injured by what they say were explosions, and they say it happened just before the plane hit.
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could you please source the pre-impact explosion quotes? ive only ever seen peopel describing explosions after the impact (you know, while there was a huge fire burning)

The Naudet bros film show lots of damage and powder in the lobbies of the buildings, certainly consistant with explsosions in the sub basements.
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also consistant with vapor explosions due to jet fuel in the elevator shafts, we know there was jet fuel in the building, any evidence of explosives?

There was a hugh electrical generator that was blown apart in the basement too.
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source?

I think the fact that both radar and seimic data are both locked to UTC makes the times far more accurate than others would have us think.
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this may be true, but how often are the local clocks updated? my PC synchs with an atomic clock in colorado, but only once a day, in between it can still get ahead or behind

also, as apathoid pointed out the radar has a built-in 4.6 second margin of error due to the rotation of the dish, and seismic data cant be determined to an exact time due to variations in propagation speed, so at the very least we have a 4.6 second margin of error magnified by an unknown margin of error in the propagation of the seismic waves
 
TruthSeeker1234 said:
Actually, there are a litany of eyewitnesses, including William Rodriguez, who saw, heard, felt, and were injured by what they say were explosions, and they say it happened just before the plane hit.
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But, if those explosions occurred "just seconds" before the planes hit, how would someone inside be able to make a significant determination that the explosion occurred before the planes hit? (Did they see actually the plane or planes?) Were they injured before the plane hit? If so, that would mean the explosions must have occurred more than just a few seconds earlier.

But, you do not provide any further evidence of such explosions. How come they are not present on video footage taken of the planes hitting the buildings?

The Naudet bros film show lots of damage and powder in the lobbies of the buildings, certainly consistant with explsosions in the sub basements. There was a huge electrical generator that was blown apart in the basement too.
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How are they "consistent" with explosions that could have only originated from explosives in the basements? Why couldn't a building collapse, with burning jet fuel, cause that damage?

All of this is evidence.
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But, you fail to provide evidence of planted explosives. Where are the traces of explosive material, other than jet fuel and whatever other chemicals could reasonably be lying around in that basement?

And, if these explosions occurred in the basement, how come no one noticed the basement was exploding? Are you going to argue that every single person had their gaze fixed upwards so much, they missed it?

If the explosions were set to go off at or near the impact zone, that wouldn't cause damage in the basement as you describe it.

I think the fact that both radar and seismic data are both locked to UTC makes the times far more accurate than others would have us think.
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Okay. But, did you ever think that, perhaps, the seconds were not synchronized between the two sources?

Methinks this report is grasping at straws. It does not provide proof. It merely points out a minor inconsistency in time recordings from two separate systems.
 
TruthSeeker1234 said:
The Naudet bros film show lots of damage and powder in the lobbies of the buildings, certainly consistant with explsosions in the sub basements.
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Do some research. Their video, and the firemen, refer to two things:

1) Fire damage, including blown off doors and burning people from the elevators, with an overpowerful smell of jet fuel

2) Structural damage to the lobby in the form of displaced marble panels and broken windows.

The first is consistant with the jet crash, and is not explained by explosives.

The second was an indicator of structural integrity in the building. If you had actually done any research you'd know that the entire building was moving, causing the marble to be dislodged and glass to be smashed. Assistant Fire Chief Joseph Callan concluded the building was unsafe, based on these observations, and ordered the evacuation.

The Naudet film does not show any powder in the lobby of WTC1 until after WTC2 has collapsed, and they never entered WTC2.

-Andrew
 
What about the fact that sound travels at over 4000 meters per second in steel but a lot slower in air, so the first thing he Mr. Rodriguez would have notice is the sound traveling down though the steel to the basement, and then rebounding though the air.
Before the sound in the air from the fuel blast ever reached him.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
What about the fact that sound travels at over 4000 meters per second in steel but a lot slower in air, so the first thing he Mr. Rodriguez would have notice is the sound traveling down though the steel to the basement, and then rebounding though the air.
Before the sound in the air from the fuel blast ever reached him.
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thats a good point, given a temperature of 72 degrees and a distance of 250-300m what woul dbe the time differential between the sound coming fromt eh steel and through the air?
 
QUOTE=defaultdotxbe;1923691]thats a good point, given a temperature of 72 degrees and a distance of 250-300m what woul dbe the time differential between the sound coming fromt eh steel and through the air?[/QUOTE]

http://library.thinkquest.org/19537/Physics4.html

The sound of the impact of the plane would be transmitted almost instantly though the steel but would take a second or so for the air blast to travel down, also do not forget that the sounds and waves the plane itself produced would hit the building before the plane did.
Add to that the fact that the plane borrowed into the building, and you would have sound traveling down though the steel well over a second or two before the planes fuel tanks in the wings exploded causing the air blast.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
Add to that the fact that the plane borrowed into the building, and you would have sound traveling down though the steel well over a second or two before the planes fuel tanks in the wings exploded causing the air blast.
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Actually that's a good point... according to NIST's analysis of the UA175 fireball, there was considerable delay between impact and the actual fireball. (You don't need the report, watch the video!)

So, aircraft impact transmits impact down steel of building at high speed. Meanwhile aircraft rips open, jet fuel aerosols. A few seconds later, fuel ignites and fireballs. Sound from explosion takes some time to travel through air to basement.

You could be looking at quite a considerable delay.

-Andrew
 
gumboot said:
Actually that's a good point... according to NIST's analysis of the UA175 fireball, there was considerable delay between impact and the actual fireball. (You don't need the report, watch the video!)

So, aircraft impact transmits impact down steel of building at high speed. Meanwhile aircraft rips open, jet fuel aerosols. A few seconds later, fuel ignites and fireballs. Sound from explosion takes some time to travel through air to basement.

You could be looking at quite a considerable delay.

-Andrew
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I know, but when I tried to explain this to Cters they just reply sound traveling though steel you got to be crazy or a still.
It reminds me of trying to tell my cat that he can not catch the fish on my computer screen, and he just keeps trying no matter what I say.
 
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