Siesmic Evidence Proves Inside Job?

[defaultdotxbe]

I know, but when I tried to explain this to Cters they just reply sound traveling though steel you got to be crazy or a still.

must not live near railroad tracks, lol

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

I've read every post in this thread, and not one of you has come close to refuting this paper. It's been updated.

http://worldtradecentertruth.com/volume/200609/SeismicFurlong.doc

Most of you evidentally have not read it. The only thing said by you OCT's that makes any sense is that there may be measurement error larger than the discrepancy in times. However, this is a stretch. Both the radar times and the seismic data are locked to UTC, and are accurate to within a second.

I will summarize the main points in the paper.

1) Seismic spikes were recorded prior to the impact of the jets. (14 and 17 seconds prior).
2) William Rodriguez and 36 other people report being blasted by a huge explosion in the basement of tower 1, and report then hearing the jet impact seconds afterwards.
3) There are credible reports of elevators being blown off their hinges in the lobby, and these particular elevators did not go all the way up to where the plane hit.
4) The only elevator that did go all the way to where the plane hit had a person in it, the elevator operator, and he only had broken ankles, and was not burned.

Can anyone offer an explanation of why seismic spikes occured before each jet impact? No, there is no explanation for that, other than the fact that huge explosions took place in the basements.

William Rodriguez is a hero who saved many lives. I'm sorry JREF guys, but 911 was an inside job. You all need to wake up.

 

[hellaeon]

TS, your such a friggin troll.

Your shown constantly to be wrong. What the hell is it with you? You just arrogantly dismiss real facts.

ignored.

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

Please, with the ad homs already. They're so tired. Anyone want to try and have a crack at refuting this?

Seismic Spike. Then Jet impact. Explain.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

This is obviously a test of faith. THX1138 obviously feels that if he can come out of the lions den with his faith in St. Dylan intact and unwavering, that Allah will reward him with a really big cookie.

He's fully invested on an emotional level and is incapable of thinking outside the rigid dogmatic box his religion has drawn around him.

 

[apathoid]

Please, with the ad homs already. They're so tired. Anyone want to try and have a crack at refuting this?

Seismic Spike. Then Jet impact. Explain.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1917665&postcount=64

While a Mosaic has many benefits, it does create technical issues. Short-range terminal radar such as the ASR-9 and the ASR-11 rotate at a rate of once every 4.6 seconds. Long-range en route center radar systems such as the ASR-4 rotate at a rate of once every 12 seconds. This lack of synchronization can cause ghost images and target jumping. FAA is working to address these issues.

There's 12 of your seconds. You want to try and have a crack at refuting this?

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

Ross/Furlong:

It is known that the FAA followed the aircraft using the four northeast ARTCCs (Air Route Traffic Control Centers) of Boston, New York, Washington DC, and Cleveland; there was also Air Traffic Control for the local air space of New York City. All of this radar and accompanying Air Traffic Control data was recorded to UTC timestamping. These stations utilized primary radar return tracking with all times to the second. Also, an Air Traffic Controller replied to this investigation stating that a time-check is done daily by all stations to make sure that all radar tracking is precisely coordinated to UTC.

You have five separate sources of radar data, all locked to UTC. They claim accuracy to the second.

Tell you what, I'll send this note to Ross and see what he says.

 

[apathoid]

You never addressed this(other than to say nice try )

.....

From the whitepaper, these events showed up on the seismograph as 9:59:04 and 10:28:31 (from the imported table on pg. 2). The timing discrepancies are now -5 seconds for the south tower, and -6 seconds for the north tower..........

South Tower
Aircraft Impact: 9-11 Commission is 17 seconds later than seismograph
Collapse: 9-11 commission is -5 + 15 = 10 seconds later than seismograph

North Tower
Aircraft Impact: 9-11 Commission is 14 seconds later than seismograph
Collapse: 9-11 commission is -6 + 15 = 9 seconds later than seismograph

Whats 17-10?
Whats 14-9?

While a Mosaic has many benefits, it does create technical issues. Short-range terminal radar such as the ASR-9 and the ASR-11 rotate at a rate of once every 4.6 seconds. Long-range en route center radar systems such as the ASR-4 rotate at a rate of once every 12 seconds. This lack of synchronization can cause ghost images and target jumping. FAA is working to address these issues.

Is 12 greater than 7?
Is 12 greater than 5?

Even if the contact lost times came from the short-range radar, you're seismic errors are now only 2.4 and 0.4 seconds.

 

[tsig]

I've read every post in this thread, and not one of you has come close to refuting this paper. It's been updated.

http://worldtradecentertruth.com/volume/200609/SeismicFurlong.doc

Most of you evidentally have not read it. The only thing said by you OCT's that makes any sense is that there may be measurement error larger than the discrepancy in times. However, this is a stretch. Both the radar times and the seismic data are locked to UTC, and are accurate to within a second.

I will summarize the main points in the paper.

1) Seismic spikes were recorded prior to the impact of the jets. (14 and 17 seconds prior).
2) William Rodriguez and 36 other people report being blasted by a huge explosion in the basement of tower 1, and report then hearing the jet impact seconds afterwards.
3) There are credible reports of elevators being blown off their hinges in the lobby, and these particular elevators did not go all the way up to where the plane hit.
4) The only elevator that did go all the way to where the plane hit had a person in it, the elevator operator, and he only had broken ankles, and was not burned.

Can anyone offer an explanation of why seismic spikes occured before each jet impact? No, there is no explanation for that, other than the fact that huge explosions took place in the basements.

William Rodriguez is a hero who saved many lives. I'm sorry JREF guys, but 911 was an inside job. You all need to wake up.

Just who set off these explosions? It's time for you to answer some questions.

What does point 4. prove?

Do you know what an inside job is?

Are you human?

 

[gumboot]

I will summarize the main points in the paper.

1) Seismic spikes were recorded prior to the impact of the jets. (14 and 17 seconds prior).

Cite your evidence that these spikes were originated at the WTC and not somewhere else entirely... (there is a quarry near the LD Observatory, for example...)

2) William Rodriguez and 36 other people report being blasted by a huge explosion in the basement of tower 1, and report then hearing the jet impact seconds afterwards.

First Willy changes his story and now you change it even further for him? Amazing. Rework this point so it reflects the actual accounts of the witnesses, or abandon it.

3) There are credible reports of elevators being blown off their hinges in the lobby, and these particular elevators did not go all the way up to where the plane hit.
4) The only elevator that did go all the way to where the plane hit had a person in it, the elevator operator, and he only had broken ankles, and was not burned.

1) The elevator shafts extend the entire length of the building. The reports of destroyed elevators are not unique to the lobby and basement either:

(CNN) -- About 12 minutes before 9 a.m., Jonathan Judd was waiting patiently on the 78th floor of the World Trade Center's north tower for an elevator to take him to his office seven floors up.

He boarded an elevator and the car stopped on the 83rd floor, meaning he'd have a few more seconds to wait.

A few seconds later, after the doors opened, the three elevator banks across the corridor from Judd exploded.

"It looked like a fireball. The doors blew off those elevators," he recalled. "There was a 50 percent chance I would have been on that side. You take whichever elevator comes first. I just got lucky."

http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2002/america.remembers/stories/tower/judd.html

The first -- a colossal "Boom! Like everything started shattering in the building" -- thrust Arlene Charles flat on her face by the north tower's 78th floor Command Desk, which she was working as an elevator starter the morning of September 11.

The lights went out, then came the screams. After a few petrified minutes, Charles recognized that the screams were coming from her friend and colleague, Carmen Griffith.

The two followed each other's voices and when they finally met up -- several minutes after Flight 11 slammed into the building, less than a dozen floors up -- Griffith was "bawling" and burning, said Charles.

"She was literally on fire," Charles, 46, recalled in her distinct Grenadan accent. "Her face was all red. Her fingers peeled back. No skin left."

Griffith later said a blaze surged into her face when she tried to open the door of the elevator she was riding. She managed to squeeze onto the 78th floor landing -- even as the flames continued to ravage her skin.

Source

You ignore these testimonies? Sick. Your ignorance is pathetic and insulting. Try do some research before making such grossly weak claims. It took me all of 30 seconds to find these two stories. I have no doubt there are many others.

Continuing...

2) None of the 99 elevators were working when firemen arrived. We have no idea how many people were trapped in/injured in elevators that never got out. We have no idea how many people higher up in the building were killed by exploding elevators.
3) The reports of damage/fires regarding elevators also include reports of burning kerosene (this includes those like Rodriguez in the basement). You failed to mention this. Why?
4) The descriptions of burns are consistant (and unique to) fuel fire-balls such as would be expected from exploding jet fuel - skin hanging off etc. (these reports include people like Rodriguez in the basement). Such injuries simply do not occur as a result of high explosives.
5) Not one single witness has reported any explosive-specific phenomenon. Not one single piece of video footage from inside or around the towers captures a single explosive detonation.

Can anyone offer an explanation of why seismic spikes occured before each jet impact? No, there is no explanation for that, other than the fact that huge explosions took place in the basements.

Your willful refusal to use the grey matter in your head is rather sad. Any number of things could cause a siesmic spike at that moment. The scientists who interpret this data have categorically stated the recorded no explosive detonations at the WTC.

William Rodriguez is a hero who saved many lives.

He was, indeed. His actions were heroic and selfless on that day. But that does not make his conspiracy claims any more valid. William Rodriguez is a hero. But he is also wrong.

-Andrew

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

I sent this note to Gordon Ross.

Dear Gordon:

Thank for all your great work on 9/11. I'm a big supporter and avid reader. I've been arguing with some guys about your "Seismic Data" paper. Obviously, if the seismic spikes occur before the jet impacts, then there were explosions. The supporters of the official story have raised the issue of accuracy, and offer this quote to support the notion that we cannot trust the radar times:

"While a Mosaic has many benefits, it does create technical issues. Short-range terminal radar such as the ASR-9 and the ASR-11 rotate at a rate of once every 4.6 seconds. Long-range en route center radar systems such as the ASR-4 rotate at a rate of once every 12 seconds. This lack of synchronization can cause ghost images and target jumping. FAA is working to address these issues."

Seems like accuracy is a legitimate issue. Are the radar times really dependable to within a second?

Thank You.

 

[apathoid]

Ross/Furlong:

You have five separate sources of radar data, all locked to UTC. They claim accuracy to the second.

It is known that the FAA followed the aircraft using the four northeast ARTCCs (Air Route Traffic Control Centers) of Boston, New York, Washington DC, and Cleveland; there was also Air Traffic Control for the local air space of New York City. All of this radar and accompanying Air Traffic Control data was recorded to UTC timestamping. These stations utilized primary radar return tracking with all times to the second. Also, an Air Traffic Controller replied to this investigation stating that a time-check is done daily by all stations to make sure that all radar tracking is precisely coordinated to UTC.

Tell you what, I'll send this note to Ross and see what he says.

Well, since the flights were tracked by Center(long-range radar) and not by approach(short-range radar), we are looking at the 12 second sweep as opposed to 4.6 seconds.

Its clear you dont know what the above means, so I'll spell it out for you.

The "refresh" rate of ATC surveillance radar is 4.6 seconds for short range radar and 12 seconds for long range radar. It has nothing to do with being "locked to UTC"(i guess that means synced with a cesium clock).

Lets start our imaginary stopwatch.

0001:01 UTC -> radar paints target airplane and the target is displayed on radar until the next sweep.
0001:13 UTC -> radar updates target, target is displayed on radar until the next sweep.
0001:14 UTC -> plane crashes into a building, still appears on radar.
0001:15 UTC -> plane still appears on radar.
0001:16 UTC -> plane still appears on radar.
0001:17 UTC -> plane still appears on radar.
0001:18 UTC -> plane still appears on radar.
0001:19 UTC -> plane still appears on radar.
0001:20 UTC -> plane still appears on radar.
0001:21 UTC -> plane still appears on radar.
0001:22 UTC -> plane still appears on radar.
0001:23 UTC -> plane still appears on radar.
0001:24 UTC -> plane still appears on radar.
0001:25 UTC -> plane disappears from radar, contact lost.

For short range radar, the difference is 4.6 seconds instead of 12 seconds.

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

I did address Mackey's comments. Mackey was doing essentially what NIST and 9/11 commission were doing. Fudging the numbers. The point is to ignore NIST and ignore 9/11 commission, and go back to the primary data. That being the seismic data, and the radar data. Mackey also brought up propagation times, which are not relevant here. LDEO already takes that into account when they give their numbers.

I'll wait to hear back from Ross, to see what he has to say about the accuracy issue.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Mackey also brought up propagation times, which are not relevant here. LDEO already takes that into account when they give their numbers.

LDEO has also categorically stated there is no evidence of any explosions emanating from the WTC on 9/11/2001.

Unlike the staff at the Lamont-Dogherty Earth Observatory, you are not only not a seismologist, you aren't even so much as a bathroom attendant at a rural Alabama biker bar (apologies to any Alabamans).

Now... what is your AGE and level of EDUCATION (degree earned or last grade completed)?

 

[stateofgrace]

TS 123456789......................ect,ect

So according to you and Ross, a split second before the planes hit, explosives went off in the basements of the Towers.

I’m sorry you did say TOWERS didn’t you not TOWER. There were two, remember.

So here is your scenario,

1. Plant explosives devices in basement.
2. Rig Towers with termite or something other than load sounding explosive devices.
3. Hijack Plane.
4. Trigger basement explosives.
5. Slam plane into Tower(s)
6. Wait approx 50 minutes to trigger the quiet explosives in WTC 2
7. Wait same length of time again to trigger quiet explosives in WTC 1.

Brilliant, wonder which brainbox dreamed this one up.

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

Apathoid, I understand sweep times. The impact time is not derived from a single radar, it is derived from 5 seperate radars, including New York. Would New York be an approach radar with the faster sweep time? I don't know. In any case, the timings are the FAA numbers, and they do not say +/- 6 seconds.

It is known that the FAA followed the aircraft using the four northeast ARTCCs (Air Route Traffic Control Centers) of Boston, New York, Washington DC, and Cleveland; there was also Air Traffic Control for the local air space of New York City. All of this radar and accompanying Air Traffic Control data was recorded to UTC timestamping. These stations utilized primary radar return tracking with all times to the second. Also, an Air Traffic Controller replied to this investigation stating that a time-check is done daily by all stations to make sure that all radar tracking is precisely coordinated to UTC. Radar is based upon microwaves that travel at the speed of light, so error variance is not stated. The Commission Report has the impact times. Their data set is based upon actual flight data that ended when the Towers were struck. There is no question: AA Flight 11 died at 8:46:40 and UA Flight 175 at 9:03:11

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

TRUTHSEEKER1234; WHAT IS YOUR AGE AND LEVEL OF EDUCATION?

 

[gumboot]

Apathoid, I understand sweep times. The impact time is not derived from a single radar, it is derived from 5 seperate radars, including New York. Would New York be an approach radar with the faster sweep time? I don't know. In any case, the timings are the FAA numbers, and they do not say +/- 6 seconds.

I don't know about UA175, but when NEADS contacted New York Centre about the first aircraft flying into the WTC, they didn't even know it had happened. Of course at this point NO ONE knew it was even AA11 that had hit the North Tower, except for AA themselves, who took 90 minutes to confirm.

UA175 and AA77 were not being tracked at the moment they crashed. UA175 was picked up visually by the tower at Newark International a matter of seconds before impact, and AA77 was tracked visually by the crew of an ANG C-130H Hercules.

I'm not sure about UA93.

In other words, no one was tracking these aircraft on a radar scope at the moment of impact. So how do they know? Where did this data come from?

Do the FAA somehow record all the data of every single radar scope? It was my understanding that only voice communications were recorded. Does anyone know?

-Andrew

ETA. Even if they do record all scopes, how do they deal with the fact that both AA11 and UA175 dropped below the radar prior to impact?

 

[apathoid]

Apathoid, I understand sweep times. The impact time is not derived from a single radar, it is derived from 5 seperate radars, including New York. Would New York be an approach radar with the faster sweep time? I don't know. In any case, the timings are the FAA numbers, and they do not say +/- 6 seconds.

Okay, but you have to consider that:

1) You'll have 5 different contact lost times, so all you can do is go with the earliest. Did Ross actually cite the FAA times for all centers, or just one? Did he cite whether the contact lost times were the same or different?
2) If the radars are "synced"(probably impossible)and the contact lost time is the same for all all radars, then you still have a 12 second fudge factor.

Either way, in no way is the time of the aircraft impacts accurate to a second just by using FAAs primary radar(perhaps if the hijackers hadnt turned off their transponders, we'd have a time that is accurate to a second or better)

 

[apathoid]

ETA. Even if they do record all scopes, how do they deal with the fact that both AA11 and UA175 dropped below the radar prior to impact?

Very good point, and I find it difficult to believe that not one, but FOUR different longe range radars were painting UA175/AA11. Those ARTCC Center radars really dont overlap in coverage, so I think its unlikely. I guess i'd better just go ahead and read the Ross doc...

ETA I did a little reading up on this. The NTSB/Commission impact times are estimates.

screencapped from:
Radar Data Study For All 4 Flights

AA 11 Flight Path Study
UA 175 Flight Path Study

Its obvious they had to "fudge" the numbers, all the clocks were in disagreement including AA77s and UA 93s FDR clocks. The ARTCC Centers arent UTC, they set the time themselves and there were disagreements. The first document I linked also details the sweep times on page 2 and they are indeed 12 seconds.