Siesmic Evidence Proves Inside Job?

I've already acknowledged that accuracy is a valid point. If it turns out that the margin of error is too great to support this, then the paper is not valid.

The margin of error is too great therefore the paper is not valid and this thread is pointless.

If it turns out that, indeed the radar and seismic data are accurate to within a second, then this paper is very important, and corroborates the eyewitnesses who say they were injured by sub-basement explosions just prior to impact.

I'll suspend judgement for now.

Or you could just read Apathoid's comments above that the radar was at best accurate to only 4.6 seconds. Ergo, the margin of error is too great for the paper to be of any use.

Steve S.
 
Outstanding point. I'm not sure if the transponders were turned off for the WTC planes, I suspect they were.

If they were, then there would be 4.6 second error in the ATCs contact lost time(the antennae rotate once every 4.6 seconds). The 767s would appear to be on the screen after they already impacted.

I believe there will be an article in an uncoming debunking journal.

I would also suggest reading 3.6
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5A_chap_1-8.pdf

The two aircraft impacts derived by NIST and LEDO now agree within the combined uncertainties

Also NOTE LEDO NIST revised times 8:46:29 9:02:57

Pavel Hlava's impact times 8:46:28 9:02:56
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc2hit2/
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc1hit2/

Another good article is here
http://www.vibrationdata.com/Newsletters/November2001_NL.pdf
 
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I believe there will be an article in an uncoming debunking journal.

I would also suggest reading 3.6
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5A_chap_1-8.pdf

The two aircraft impacts dirived by NIST and LEDO now agree within the combined uncertainties

Also NOTE LEDO NIST revised times 8:46:29 9:02:57

Pavel Hlava's impact times 8:46:28 9:02:56
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc2hit2/
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc1hit2/

Another good article is here
http://www.vibrationdata.com/Newsletters/November2001_NL.pdf

ThaT article is very good, explaining things in layman's terms..
I also noticed that the diagram of the tower included in the report showed a total absence of invisicrete tm, 3" rebar, and 4 foot centers....:D
 
Thanks for those links Kent, right on the money as usual.

Here is a link to the radar sweep times.

http://www.house.gov/transportation/aviation/03-14-01/03-14-01memo.html

FAA Memo said:
Radar Synchronization

Unlike the ARTS system, STARS will be able to use feeds from multiple types of radar systems. This system, known as a Mosaic system, allows controllers to track targets over larger areas and provides a built-in backup system.

While a Mosaic has many benefits, it does create technical issues. Short-range terminal radar such as the ASR-9 and the ASR-11 rotate at a rate of once every 4.6 seconds. Long-range en route center radar systems such as the ASR-4 rotate at a rate of once every 12 seconds. This lack of synchronization can cause ghost images and target jumping. FAA is working to address these issues.
 
Damn, you guys are good. There's an easy way to settle this, though. I'll ask this guy the next time I see him at Ground Zero:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/879045037c0c4961a.jpg[/qimg]

I'll write up that Alex Jones encounter soon. Need to post some pictures from yesterday first.

Obviously a man who has managed to avoid becoming singularity stupid by evil educators and embrace the truth of Nature's Harmonic 4
simultaneous 24 hour days within a single rotation of Earth.
 
http://worldtradecentertruth.com/volume/200609/SeismicFurlong.doc

I'm seeking serious comment on the merits/demerits of this paper.
Here's a serious comment. TruthSeeker1234, read and learn.

From the whitepaper you've linked above, pp.1-2:

Original seismic and Commission times.
Table 1
AA Flt 11
2001 LDEO 8:46:26 Original seismic
2004 Commission 8:46:40 (14 seconds difference)
UA Flt 175
2001 LDEO 9:02:54 Original seismic
2004 Commission 9:03:11 (17 seconds difference)
And both seismic events were 12 and 6 seconds duration, respectively. It is therefore reasonable to expect errors of perhaps 3 seconds. Nonetheless, we see a timing discrepancy between the two sources of 14 seconds for the north tower, 17 seconds for the south tower.

The similarity of these discrepancies suggests perhaps it's a simple calibration error in somebody's clock. If so, we should see this type of discrepancy in every measurement. So how about if we look at the collapse times, shall we? This isn't discussed in the whitepaper, for some reason. The 9-11 Commission Report, in Chapter 9, lists the collapse times as 9:58:59 for the south tower, and 10:28:25 AM for the north tower.

From the whitepaper, these events showed up on the seismograph as 9:59:04 and 10:28:31 (from the imported table on pg. 2). The timing discrepancies are now -5 seconds for the south tower, and -6 seconds for the north tower.

Well, that's not close to 14 and 17 seconds, right?

Ah. We've forgotten something. That's the collapse time itself.

The aircraft impacts -- assuming that's what these 0.9 MR readings are, and that's quite faint -- would be transmitted through the intact structures to the ground as a compression wave in steel, which travels at roughly 5100 meters per second. That's a fraction of a second.

By contrast, the building collapses, which show as vastly stronger 2.1 and 2.3 MR events -- strong enough to obscure weaker signals, and also possibly transmitted faster through the ground -- will peak when the bulk of material hits the ground. The compromised structure doesn't transmit a strong signal as the collapse progresses, you don't see a big spike until that upper block hits something extremely solid.*

So that's why the discrepancy. Let's call it 15 seconds.

Add up the discrepancies and compare:

South Tower
Aircraft Impact: 9-11 Commission is 17 seconds later than seismograph
Collapse: 9-11 commission is -5 + 15 = 10 seconds later than seismograph

North Tower
Aircraft Impact: 9-11 Commission is 14 seconds later than seismograph
Collapse: 9-11 commission is -6 + 15 = 9 seconds later than seismograph

It appears that every measurement on the seismograph doesn't line up with the 9-11 Commission time. NOT just the ones they're talking about.

Why did Ross and Furlong neglect to mention this? What are they trying to hide? Why include the collapse times on the seismograph, and not the collapse times from the 9-11 Commission Report? Is it because it casts doubt on the presumed accuracy of their measurements?

Now that we've added some detail to this calculation, I hypothesize that the seismograph clock is offset from the 9-11 Commission's clock by approximately 12 seconds. Yes, there are still discrepancies of a few seconds, but remember there's uncertainty in all of this as well. We're now within two sigma. This is surely not enough -- not with only four measurements -- to cry foul play.

All of this assumes that everything else presented in the paper is the unvarnished truth. I note that they didn't bother to show us the traces themselves. Those things are not that easy to interpret, particularly when considering such weak seismic events. (I live in California, I have some first-hand experience with earthquakes.)

Furthermore, even if there were a couple of 0.9 MR shocks uncorrelated to the aircraft impacts, so what? What mechanism explains this devious turn of events?

From the whitepaper's introduction:

It seems unlikely that Middle Eastern terrorists could have overcome the WTC security and managed this kind of high-level, technological coordination.
It also seems unlikely that anyone in the world could have coordinated such a thing, namely bombs synchronized with airliner impacts. Bombs, I might add, that served no obvious purpose whatsoever.

File this one under "debunked." And in the future, only bring me papers that have been competently reviewed.

*: Don't believe me? If you transmit a large shock, that means the falling mass suffers an equal and opposite impulse. Watch the collapse tape and show me that upper block getting jerked to a halt. Doesn't happen, huh? That's why you don't see a strong seismic event until it hits ground.
 
BACK THE ^&%$ Off! You are making the same mistake that the Lost Marble people are. I will not tolerate blanket disparagement of my profession.
Yes, a mechanical engineer is the best person to analyze a dynamic event. An appeal to authority requires that the authority be credible. Structural Engineers, Civil Engineers and Archetects design things not to move. Mechanical engineers deal with motion.
That said. ME's also do HVAC and a number of other things that do not involve massive, or even miniscule collisions. I would need to see the dredentials and registrations of this Ross character before I declare him qualified.
Now, I'm off to read his paper.

Right let me clear up my statement and move on from this. I AM a qualified engineer. I have BSc in Mechanical engineering plus twelve years experience working offshore on moving steel structures, including “A” frames and cranes. Add to these 8 years in the Royal Navy as a weapons engineer. I feel I have the experience and qualifications to speak in the fields I am familiar with. I also feel I am able to know I am NOT qualified to speak about buildings and what cause them to fall, nor am I qualified to analyze seismic data.

If you believe Ross is then fine, I do not. He is no more qualified than me and I know I am not.As an engineer,you know it is part of our responsibility to be truthful and honest. This is part and parcel of the engineering code.

If this belief offends you, then I apologies but in the same token I stand by it.
 
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Right let me clear up my statement and move on from this. I AM a qualified engineer. I have BSc in Mechanical engineering plus twelve years experience working offshore on moving steel structures, including “A” frames and cranes. Add to these 8 years in the Royal Navy as a weapons engineer. I feel I have the experience and qualifications to speak in the fields I am familiar with. I also feel I am able to know I am NOT qualified to speak about buildings and what cause them to fall, nor am I qualified to analyze seismic data.

If you believe Ross is then fine, I do not. He is no more qualified than me and I know I am not.As an engineer,you know it is part of our responsibility to be truthful and honest. This is part and parcel of the engineering code.

If this belief offends you, then I apologies but in the same token I stand by it.

O believe that a ME can be more qualified than a CE or structural engineer at analyzing a dynamic event. ME use F=MA. CE,s and SE's use F=0 for preference. Dynamics is an ME function and specialty. Not that the other guys don't know it--it's just not their focus. Nor is it the focus for all ME's. That's why I said I'd have t0o be comfortable with his credentials. I am not.
As I later stated, the thrust of the paper was in seismic events, and merely made an assertion with no backup evidence on the dynamic event. the paper is garbage, and the individuals are less than qualified at analysing seismic data.
 
OK,I think we can come to the agreement that he is no more or less qualified that any other engineer to make these claims.

The point I was making was not to belittle engineers in general but to actually question his credentials.

There are many fields in engineering and just because somebody holds a degree in one field does not automatically qualify him/her to be an expert in another, any more than say brain surgeon is qualified to speak about open heart surgery.

Again, I apologies if I offended you, this was not the intention. It was merely to point out that his paper is no more valid than any other paper written by anybody is not an engineer.

Incidentally I have debated with Ross before, over a number of days and although I found him to be well educated and very informed it does not alter the fact that his papers are non peer reviewed and are based on backing up a lie.
 
Nice try Mackey. The whole point of the Ross/Furlong paper, indeed the whole point of the truth movement is that 9-11 commission and NIST cannot be trusted. You are comparing the seismograph readings to 9/11 commission and finding discrepancies. So did Ross/Furlong. You neglect to compare the seismograph to the radar, which is what Ross/Furlong did.

All you have done is point out that the 9-11 comission fudged the numbers. So what? We knew that.

Both the seismograph and the radar are locked to UTC. There are 14,17 second discrepancies. Would you like to have another try at explaining this discrepancy? The discrepancies between 9/11 commission and reality are not of interest to me.

Ignoring 9/11 commission numbers, what is the explanation for the discrepancies between the seismic activity and the impacts of the jets upon the towers?
 
Nice try Mackey. The whole point of the Ross/Furlong paper, indeed the whole point of the truth movement is that 9-11 commission and NIST cannot be trusted.
you, liek all truthers, provide no evidence of deception

You are comparing the seismograph readings to 9/11 commission and finding discrepancies. So did Ross/Furlong. You neglect to compare the seismograph to the radar, which is what Ross/Furlong did.

so now ross and furlong are not only examining seismic data, but radar data as well? are they qualified for this?


All you have done is point out that the 9-11 comission fudged the numbers. So what? We knew that.

timelines were corrected as new information became available, its this thing called science, you shoudl try it soemtime
 
Nice try Mackey. The whole point of the Ross/Furlong paper, indeed the whole point of the truth movement is that 9-11 commission and NIST cannot be trusted. You are comparing the seismograph readings to 9/11 commission and finding discrepancies. So did Ross/Furlong. You neglect to compare the seismograph to the radar, which is what Ross/Furlong did.

All you have done is point out that the 9-11 comission fudged the numbers. So what? We knew that.
Ah, no, that's not the point.

The point is that Furlong and Ross have neglected to estimate their experimental error. It turns out, they are using an apparatus that is not sufficiently accurate -- not with their methods of calculation, anyway -- to give any conclusion one way or another. They require accuracy of a few seconds for their conclusions. It just isn't there.

I once TA'd for a graduate-level class in experimental methods. If you'd have handed me this paper, citing an estimate like this without understanding the experimental error, I'd have handed it back. Certainly never would have let it see the light of day.

Congratulations on, once again, being incapable of understanding a simple analysis. Try again.
 
Ah, no, that's not the point.

The point is that Furlong and Ross have neglected to estimate their experimental error. It turns out, they are using an apparatus that is not sufficiently accurate -- not with their methods of calculation, anyway -- to give any conclusion one way or another. They require accuracy of a few seconds for their conclusions. It just isn't there.


What do the PROTEC seismic readings say, for the impacts?

This assessing the readings of a lab so far removed from the WTC is very similar to the CTers who post video taken across the Hudson capturing muffled "explosions" prior to collapse, while blindly ignoring video taken INSIDE the buildings that capture no explosions at all.

Protec said their readings did not indicate any explosives.

LD Observatory said nearby blasting in a quarry regularly came up on their readings.

How do they KNOW the impact readings are even actually signals from the impact of the towers?

-Andrew
 
Mackey, I already said, way upthread, that accuracy was a legitimate issue. Read what I said. If it can be shown that the margin of error is around the same size as the discrepancies, that is legit reason to question Ross/Furlong.

That ain't what you said, at all.

No.

You brought out 9/11 commission numbers and compared those to the seismic data, ignored the radar data, and tried to bamboozle us into thinking you had a point. You didn't. It was almost (but not quite) as inane as your contention that the 3rd law of thermodynamics was in play with the symmetry of WTC7, overruling the 2nd law. Sheeesh.

And stop telling people I ignored you on your unsupported assertion that they removed the cross bracing from the cores of the twin towers. I have shown you photographs of the core, in the rubble, with the cross bracing still there. You have shown a sketch.
 
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What do the PROTEC seismic readings say, for the impacts?

This assessing the readings of a lab so far removed from the WTC is very similar to the CTers who post video taken across the Hudson capturing muffled "explosions" prior to collapse, while blindly ignoring video taken INSIDE the buildings that capture no explosions at all.

Protec said their readings did not indicate any explosives.
Aside from Protec saying that, indeed, their seismographs were active and showed nothing at all unexpected (see here, Page 6) I don't know what their traces looked like. Moot point anyway -- I won't make Ross and Furlong's mistake, and let someone who knows what he's doing analyze them...

Their paper is probably full of holes. I just wanted to show that, even if you take all of their assumptions as valid, it still doesn't hold together. Pathetic, really. This is why they need their own "journal."

ETA: By "they" I mean Ross and Furlong, not Protec. Protec's work looks fine to me.
 
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Mackey, I already said, way upthread, that accuracy was a legitimate issue. Read what I said. If it can be shown that the margin of error is around the same size as the discrepancies, that is legit reason to question Ross/Furlong.

That ain't what you said, at all.
Correct. There's a difference between random error ("accuracy," you call it) and experimental error. I showed the experimental error -- that they didn't even account for -- is high enough to explain the discrepancy.

If you don't know the difference between random and experimental error, then you have no place even debating the issue. But I'll be glad to explain, if you don't understand.

You brought out 9/11 commission numbers and compared those to the seismic data, ignored the radar data, and tried to bamboozle us into thinking you had a point.
"Bamboozle," eh? You've used that word on me before.

Just because you don't understand my point doesn't mean I'm trying to trick you.

You didn't. It was almost (but not quite) as inane as your contention that the 3rd law of thermodynamics was in play with the symmetry of WTC7, overruling the 2nd law. Sheeesh.
"Sheesh" indeed. You're talking about this post of mine, and it's Newton's Third Law, not the Third Law of Thermodynamics.

That's the kind of mistake I expect from Killtown.

So you stand by your ridiculous argument that the 2nd Law means a building must topple over rather than implode, as you argued here? Really??

wow.

And stop telling people I ignored you on your unsupported assertion that they removed the cross bracing from the cores of the twin towers. I have shown you photographs of the core, in the rubble, with the cross bracing still there. You have shown a sketch.
I didn't. You're misquoting me -- again. I made no such assertion, and what I said is that you never answered my questions! It's all here, I asked you over and over and over, and I still don't have the answers.

So I'll tell people exactly that, since it happens to be true.
 
Mackey, I already said, way upthread, that accuracy was a legitimate issue. Read what I said. If it can be shown that the margin of error is around the same size as the discrepancies, that is legit reason to question Ross/Furlong.

That ain't what you said, at all.

No.

Knock it off, you have no idea what you are talking about. You are just repeating what other morons have said before you, thats how claims of pyroclastic flows, EMPs, faster than freefall etc, etc, etc get started. Some tin-hater dork makes the "discovery" and hordes of spammers(like yourself) parrot it everywhere.

You are using your own ignorance as a weapon, so just stop it; noone is fooled. You aren't even a good pseudo-intellectual, you just repeat the same [rule8] over and over and its really getting old. I told you, this isnt the Loose Change forum. People here are actually educated and can think for themselves. If you'd drop your religious fanaticism for a minute, you might actually learn something.
 

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