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Terrorists Thank Germany

Which brings us back to the OP...

The word "Germany" appears once, in a minor footnote, in the article you cite in your link.

Let us accept, momentarily and for the sake of the argument, the premise that Islamist rage at the U.S. and its allies is justified by past misdeeds of the U.S. and its allies. What crimes against Islam does the historical record show Germany committed, to deserve this latest attempt at mass murder?

I don't know for a start if it is justified. It is a response that is predictable, however. No one ever claimed it was all that rational, either. The civil war between Shia and Sunni, for example, doesn't make much sense to me. It does not surprise me that an attack was planned in Germany. That is the nature of this conflict. Read my thread. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62362
 
Paranoia = unjustifiable delusion that others are out to harm one.

Yossarian was not delusional. People were trying to kill him.

No you're right, Yossarian was NOT delusional - HE was a bombadier in the Army Air Corps during WWII - YOU are not.

I always thought is just a bit ironic that you chose Catch-22 to model your survival philosphy on - especially considering it's an anti-war book whose central theme is the sometimes irrational actions of soldiers who have become paranoid because the government keeps "upping the ante," regarding how many combat missions must be completed before returning home.

Sound a little familiar? This adminstration has been constantly "upping the ante" where the troops are concerned, and many Reserve units are putting in as much "in-country" time as the regular troops. We're asking more and more of our soldiers because of recruitment shortages in an unpopular war, yet you feel justified in believing that you personally were targeted?
 
Which brings us back to the OP...

The word "Germany" appears once, in a minor footnote, in the article you cite in your link.

Let us accept, momentarily and for the sake of the argument, the premise that Islamist rage at the U.S. and its allies is justified by past misdeeds of the U.S. and its allies. What crimes against Islam does the historical record show Germany committed, to deserve this latest attempt at mass murder?

Let me make it clear that I don't believe the actions of the terrorists is justified. Deliberate targeting of innocents is not justified. I said that the wider islamic dislike which allows and fosters terrorism has logical reasons. The article I linked to documents some of the US actions that have enraged the islamic world at large. It is this wider anger that allows the extremists to operate effectively. People who are not prepared to kill Americans are prepared to justify their actions, keep quiet and not take the action they should take.

Re: Germany - now the terrorism and radicalism has started the gloves are off for every extremist nutjob with a grievance. I simply don't know the reasons why that particular group of men might attack Germany. Maybe simply because they happen to live there and it's convenient? This doesn't change the point that islamic terrorism has not just come out of the blue for incomprehensible reasons.

Of course we don't actually know from that report that the bombs were planted as part of the wider terrorist campaign so it might be a moot point.
 
I always thought is just a bit ironic that you chose Catch-22 to model your survival philosphy on - especially considering it's an anti-war book whose central theme is the sometimes irrational actions of soldiers who have become paranoid because the government keeps "upping the ante," regarding how many combat missions must be completed before returning home.


I disagree. Most of the characters are sane. It is the setting that is insane. Hence the theme - war is insane. Even more so, war is absurd. (Which is why the insane characters like Havermeyer excel at it).

-Andrew
 
What crimes against Islam does the historical record show Germany committed, to deserve this latest attempt at mass murder?

I don't know for a start if it is justified.
You don't? :eek:

You mean to say you think it's possible that Islamist mass murder of civilians may be justified?

Please, a_u_p, share with the rest of us what Germany has done that could even hypothetically justify it.
 
I disagree. Most of the characters are sane. It is the setting that is insane. Hence the theme - war is insane. Even more so, war is absurd. (Which is why the insane characters like Havermeyer excel at it).

-Andrew

I agree with you completely, Andrew. The characters ARE sane, they're just reacting irrationally (sometimes) to the position they're put in and the position of their government who, by "upping the ante," is giving the enemy more and more chances to kill Yossarian and his fellow airmen.

That said, the airmen in Catch-22 are actually IN COMBAT whereas BPSCG is not. Get him to explain his theory that Muslim terrorists are out to kill him personally and see if it doesn't sound just a bit paranoid to you. :)
 
This doesn't change the point that islamic terrorism has not just come out of the blue for incomprehensible reasons.
If that is the case, then please, list the comprehensible reasons Germany was targetted for mass murder by Islamists.
 
Re: Germany - now the terrorism and radicalism has started the gloves are off for every extremist nutjob with a grievance. I simply don't know the reasons why that particular group of men might attack Germany. Maybe simply because they happen to live there and it's convenient? This doesn't change the point that islamic terrorism has not just come out of the blue for incomprehensible reasons.


Some of the earliest airline hijackings by Islamic Terrorists were on Lufthansa flights...

In fact, the range of countries targetted by Islamic Terrorism has always been rather broad. It also started well before the US were especially involved in the Middle East. I don't think anyone thinks it came out of the blue for incomprehensible reasons. I think it's because they hate the west. That's fairly comprehensible, at least to me.

-Andrew
 
If that is the case, then please, list the comprehensible reasons Germany was targetted for mass murder by Islamists.

I already said I don't know the reasons of people who have stated no reason themselves.
 
Some of the earliest airline hijackings by Islamic Terrorists were on Lufthansa flights...

In fact, the range of countries targetted by Islamic Terrorism has always been rather broad. It also started well before the US were especially involved in the Middle East. I don't think anyone thinks it came out of the blue for incomprehensible reasons. I think it's because they hate the west. That's fairly comprehensible, at least to me.

-Andrew

The US have been involved in the middle east since the 2nd world war. I don't hink lufthansa were flying then.

Were the hijackings aimed at Germany as a country or just a convenient flight for getting world attention?
 
I'm getting drawn into a different discussion here.

All I wanted answering was this:

So BPSCG et al - what you are saying is that UK and US foreign policy for the last 60 years has had no effect on terrorism and that the Muslims are purely and simply out to get the West simply because of the way we live in our own countries? That eating pork alone is enough?

Does that not sound a little laughable to you?

Israel, palestine, Iran, Iraq, Gulf War, the Shah, the Suez, Lebanon, promises broken in Afghanistan etc - none of that has a thing to do with it? It's just a matter of loony arabs trying to take over the rational and ethical west?

Read this: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-159.html before answering.
 
I assume you mean this hijacking:

"
1972: Hijackers surrender and free Lufthansa crew
A group of Palestinian hijackers who took over a Lufthansa jet in the skies over India two days ago has released the crew and surrendered at an airstrip in the Yemen.

All the 172 passengers - including Joseph Kennedy, son of the late Senator Robert Kennedy - were freed yesterday after painstaking negotiations with the prime minister of Yemen, Nasser Muhammad, and West German officials.

The five Palestinians had demanded an undisclosed sum of money and the release of three Jordanians under arrest in West Germany after a shooting took place in Cologne on 6 February. "

A very clear and stated motive. Not a wide anti-west act of terror. Very specific to Palestine.

Al Quaeda has drawn many of these causes together.
 
I already said I don't know the reasons of people who have stated no reason themselves.
Do you believe the above is consistent with your earlier claim?
They have real reasons for what they do. They can only exist in a climate of suspicion and dislike of the USA and it's allies. And that wider dislike has been driven by US policy.
 
Yes. One quote is about the rise in islamic terrorism in general. One is about an act which I don't know to be al quaeda ordered or even proven to be islamic at this point. I never claimed to know the reasoning behind every single action of every muslim in the world.
 
So BPSCG et al - what you are saying is that UK and US foreign policy for the last 60 years has had no effect on terrorism and that the Muslims are purely and simply out to get the West simply because of the way we live in our own countries? That eating pork alone is enough?

Does that not sound a little laughable to you?
Yes, since that's not what anybody is saying.

Your article is nothing but a litany of Western involvement in the Middle East. I could just as easily create such a list for American involvement in Latin America, Africa, China or Japan.

It establishes that there are events in the world that could cause hatred of the West. It does not establish that remedying these causes would lessen hatred of the West. There does seem to be something different about Islamic reaction to past and current Western intervention and non-Islamic reaction... in that non-Islamic reaction does nto result in terrorism and Islamic reaction does.

The only difference to account for this is ideology. Non-Muslim Africans are not blowing up embassies because of how Europe and America treated them in the colonial and post-colonial eras. Extremist muslims are. Non-Muslim Latin Americans are not flying planes into towers because of how America forcibly stole Texas and California. Extremist Muslims are. Non-Muslim Asians are not blowing up subways because of the nuclear bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, or because of the Opium Wars. Extremist Muslims are.

If one is going to posit that removing the root causes of terrorism will reduce terrorism, one must first explain why only Islamic extremists appear to be engaging in that behavior.

One must also answer Beeps' question. Why was Germany targeted? Germany is not in Iraq. Germany was not involved in the Suez Crisis. Germany never colonized the Middle East. Germany was never involved in Iran. Israel was created while Germany was under occupation by the West. Germany was not involved in the 1958 Lebanon invasion. Germany was not involved in the 1967 Six Day War, 1973 Yom Kippur War, Camp David Accords, 1982 Lebanon War, intifada or current Lebanese War. Germany did not publish cartoons of Mohammed. Due to the confluence of history, Germany is a living example of a nation that has given the terrorists what they want (not intentionally, mind you) -- it has been utterly uninvolved in the region. So why was it targeted?

Certainly, it was not targeted because of Euro-American intervention in the region. One must conclude that the West is targeted not because of the intervention, but simply because it is Western.

That's why it is more rational to conclude that Western intervention is a rallying cry for, not a cause of, radical Islamic terrorism. Even if every western nation became like Germany vis-a-vis the Middle East, terorists would still target the West.

It's a discomforting notion. But it is the theory that best fits the available evidence.
 
Yes. One quote is about the rise in islamic terrorism in general. One is about an act which I don't know to be al quaeda ordered or even proven to be islamic at this point. I never claimed to know the reasoning behind every single action of every muslim in the world.
Reply removed and replaced with marksman's much better one, which bears repeating:
Why was Germany targeted? Germany is not in Iraq. Germany was not involved in the Suez Crisis. Germany never colonized the Middle East. Germany was never involved in Iran. Israel was created while Germany was under occupation by the West. Germany was not involved in the 1958 Lebanon invasion. Germany was not involved in the 1967 Six Day War, 1973 Yom Kippur War, Camp David Accords, 1982 Lebanon War, intifada or current Lebanese War. Germany did not publish cartoons of Mohammed. Due to the confluence of history, Germany is a living example of a nation that has given the terrorists what they want (not intentionally, mind you) -- it has been utterly uninvolved in the region. So why was it targeted?
 
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