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Terrorists Thank Germany

Texas, and especially California, had strong independence movements because of absentee governance and disinterest by Mexico City. Mexico was even paid a large sum of money as a reparation by the US for the annexation of Texas - which, along with CA, was a non-issue for it until the areas started becoming more developed by settlers.

Umm... I'm not sure how that is responsive to what I wrote. The independence movements, to the extent they engaged in "terorism" (and I'm not sure they did), restricted their activities to attacks on Mexicans, much as ETA attacks only Spain and the IRA attacked only the UK.

If Sam Austin had a habit of arranging attacks in, say, Peru, to protest Hispanic conquest of Texas, I think the point would be relevant.
 
They were more likely aimed at Germany for a matter of convenience. German intelligence units were non-existent due to memories of the Gestapo, etc., so fanatics could plan undisturbed - this is the same reason that Hamburg served as the territory where the 9/11 pilots were recruited. Nobody wanted to look un-PC and intolerant for spying on the savages.

You gotta be kidding me. Germany in the 70s. The cold war pretty hot, the iron curtain straight through the country, the wall up since 1961 and our intelligence units were unexistent? I guess not.

Hamburg 2001:
population 1.7 Million
foreigners 270,000 (> 60,000 from Turkey, > 15,000 from Afghanistan, >11,000 from Iran)

Yeah, the magistrate of hamburg and our non existing intelligence units abstained from spying on more than 80,000 people (to mention only the major muslim groups) out of pure PCness.

:boggled: Zee
 
If Sam Austin had a habit of arranging attacks in, say, Peru, to protest Hispanic conquest of Texas, I think the point would be relevant.
Do you mean Stephen Houston?

Or are you confusing Jim Crockett and David Bowie?

No, not that David Bowie.
 
Umm... I'm not sure how that is responsive to what I wrote. The independence movements, to the extent they engaged in "terorism" (and I'm not sure they did), restricted their activities to attacks on Mexicans, much as ETA attacks only Spain and the IRA attacked only the UK.

If Sam Austin had a habit of arranging attacks in, say, Peru, to protest Hispanic conquest of Texas, I think the point would be relevant.

I think you're thinking of Sam Houston - Austin was known for being a peacenik. As it was, the only terrorism I know of in Tejas prior to independence was settler-Indian violence, and slaughter a'la Santa Anna (not restricted to Anglo colonists either).

I was disputing the claim that America "stole Texas and California" from Mexico. It's one of those things that sounds right, like US Cavalry giving smallpox blankets to Indians, but has no historical basis when the situations are looked at in detail (btw, the smallpox blanket story is correct, but it was done by a Swiss mercenary under British command during the French and Indian War, against the Delaware tribe).

I'm gonna let you guys have the last word on this, because it's very off-topic.
 
You gotta be kidding me. Germany in the 70s. The cold war pretty hot, the iron curtain straight through the country, the wall up since 1961 and our intelligence units were unexistent? I guess not.

I'm talking about domestic German agencies, not the CIA and MI6. And anyway, since the Cold War was pretty hot, as you say, even if there were domestic German intelligence agencies, they'd be more concerned with people named Sergei than Suleiman.

Anyway, that's been the explanation to the failure of Germany to recognize the al-Qaida presence in Hamburg in every account I've studied on the subject.
 
I was disputing the claim that America "stole Texas and California" from Mexico. It's one of those things that sounds right, like US Cavalry giving smallpox blankets to Indians, but has no historical basis when the situations are looked at in detail
Ah. Okay. I wasn't actually making the claim it was historically true. Sorry for any confusion on my part. But the fact that Latin America thinks it's true (and they do) was the basis of my initial point that Latin Americans aren't blowing up Canadian rail stations because of their ire at America.

The point was, if, as splossy theorizes, Islamic extremists are really motivated by the things listed in the article linked by Splossy, then the theory has to explain why they would plot against nations like Germany and Australia who were uninvolved in those events.

In my opinion, splossy's theory (and thus the theory underlying the linked article) must be rejected as it does not comport with the evidence.
 
Please provide a link showing that anyone claimed otherwise. Otherwise, this is a little more straw.
And we see the Islamist world is grateful for Germany's principled opposition.

Because you asked for it, links where people have claimed a link between 9/11 and Iraq:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/09/16/cheney_link_of_iraq_911_challenged/

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-09-06-poll-iraq_x.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/06/29/hayes.911/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50679-2004Jun17.html

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/8/27/174809.shtml

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13323

Not, of course, that it's true. But it was claimed.

You may now return to the usual P&CE show.
 
I'm talking about domestic German agencies, not the CIA and MI6. And anyway, since the Cold War was pretty hot, as you say, even if there were domestic German intelligence agencies, they'd be more concerned with people named Sergei than Suleiman.

So was I:
Bundesamt für verfassungschutz (agency for domestic issues), founded 1950
Bundeskriminalamt (comparable FBI), founded 1951
Bundesnachrichtendienst (secret service for issues outside germany), founded 1956

MAD (military secret service), founded 1956

Anyway, that's been the explanation to the failure of Germany to recognize the al-Qaida presence in Hamburg in every account I've studied on the subject.

Do you have some sources for these accounts?

And what were the reasons for the US agencies to not recognize the presence of the terrorists in the US? After all, the guys went to flight school there IIRC. Also PCness?

To make a long story short, PCness has nothing to do with it. Germany is not a police state, we have lots of immigration from islamic countries and the guys kept a pretty low profile while here.

Zee
 
Ah. Okay. I wasn't actually making the claim it was historically true. Sorry for any confusion on my part. But the fact that Latin America thinks it's true (and they do) was the basis of my initial point that Latin Americans aren't blowing up Canadian rail stations because of their ire at America.

The point was, if, as splossy theorizes, Islamic extremists are really motivated by the things listed in the article linked by Splossy, then the theory has to explain why they would plot against nations like Germany and Australia who were uninvolved in those events.

In my opinion, splossy's theory (and thus the theory underlying the linked article) must be rejected as it does not comport with the evidence.

I can see why you say this but I don't believe you are understanding the actual point I am making. I am not saying that the terrorists main motivation is US foreign policy. It clearly isn't. They are fanatical muslims dedicated to establishing a caliphate and have said as much.

What I am saying is that the greater muslim world is angered by US interferance and perceived injustice and that engenders support of the the extremist elements and allows the extremists to recruit and gain funding. I think they would have trouble operating in a muslim world where the majority of non-terrorist muslims are not deeply suspicious and angered by the west.

I see the terrorist problem as a pyramid with the terrorists at the tip and ever more moderate muslims as we work our way to the base. The tip needs the base to stand. This means two things - that islam in general must take responsibility for it's terrorists and that we need to be aware of how policies can make the situation worse. If a policy is required and it angers people then so be it, but if it is not necessary and produces disproportionate difficulties then a rational adminsistration should take that into account. I personally see Iraq in that light. For instance, I'd be more in favour of action against Iran if they get close to a bomb than ridding the world of Saddam on this cost/benefit basis.
 
What I am saying is that the greater muslim world is angered by US interferance and perceived injustice and that engenders support of the the extremist elements and allows the extremists to recruit and gain funding.
And that does not comport with the evidence either.

If a Muslim extermist is joining a terrorist organization because of the incitements of the article, then they are joining for a purpose (ie, those incitements) and are going to join the terrorist organization that agrees with their goals. That's why a specific mujahadeen might join Hezbollah rather than Al Qaeda. That's why a speicifc donor will give to Hamas rather than Al Qaeda.

If Al Qaeda requires the support of the Muslim world, it is not because Dar-al-Islam is mad at the West. It is because they are indifferent to the West and have other things to worry about. They allow the extremists to recruit and fundraise because the personal benefits (virtually none) to stopping them are outweighed by the monumental costs (recrimination and violence at home).

When someone puts a spotlight on their indifference to terrorism, they will put forth the usual justifications... Western attacks, Israel, war against Islam, etc. But justifications are not causes.

I think they would have trouble operating in a muslim world where the majority of non-terrorist muslims are not deeply suspicious and angered by the west.
I think the evidence is quite the opposite. Terrorists can operate just fine if the population at large is indifferent as long as there is a core of radicals from whom they can solicit donations and recruits.

I see the terrorist problem as a pyramid with the terrorists at the tip and ever more moderate muslims as we work our way to the base. The tip needs the base to stand. This means two things - that islam in general must take responsibility for it's terrorists and that we need to be aware of how policies can make the situation worse.
Islam in general will take responsibility for their terrorists when the benefits of doing so outweigh the costs.

In broad strokes, there are four ways to stop extreme Muslim terrorism, all of which should be approached simultaneously.
1) Increase the benefits of getting Muslims to stop them... I don't knwo of any way to do this and I have never seen anybody ever suggest something realistic on this angle. I'd love ot hear ideas.
2) Increase the costs of not stopping them. That means pounding the crap out of the entire Muslim world. Not realistic, and as Iraq shows, almost as costly to the pounders as the to the poundees.
3) Eliminate the radical element that does the actual violence. That means getting rid of the madrasas, eliminating wahabbism, great investigative work. This is a long-term approach and will not be 100% effective. There is a diminishing rate of return in which each added dollar to investigative techniques becomes less and less effective in stopping terrorism.
4) Increase your own defenses. This means better border patrols. This means more effective defense at home. This is also not 100% effective and has a diminishing rate of return. Cost-benefit analysis plagues this aspect as surely as the first.

Now, the War in Iraq, in my opinion, was an ambitious, idealistic and ultimately misguided attempt to create benefits to a Muslim nation while simultaneously increasing the costs of supporting terror. The idea was that proseperous and stable Iraq would be a beacon that would convince dar-al-Islam to assimilate Western culture with Western aid and in the interim we'd be pounding on a regime that has (very tangential) links to terror. That aid would then be the benefit outweighing the costs of fighting terrorism. On that note, so far, it has failed. First, the links between Iraq and terror were tenuous at best. Second, even if Iraq eventually becomes proseperous and stable, the costs of the transformation will make it very unlikely that any other nation in dar-al-Islam will want to follow suit.

That said, I have seen no other proposals on how we can effectively manage goals 1 and 2. And I think we have to figure that out quickly if we have any hope of managing this problem. Concentrating solely on goals 3 and 4 will not suffice. And "winning the hearts and minds" of the Islamic world, however laudable, will be ineffective in and irrelevant to fighting terror
 
Because you asked for it, links where people have claimed a link between 9/11 and Iraq:

...

Not, of course, that it's true. But it was claimed.

You may now return to the usual P&CE show.

What I find truly amazing is that the volume of circumstantial evidence which indicates that Saddam had a role in 9/11 was summarily dismissed because Saddam was believed to be "secular."

I'm not saying that Saddam did or did not have a role in 9/11, just that it deserved a much deeper investigation than it received. Dubya's military record was subjected to a much more thorough investigation.
 
And that does not comport with the evidence either.

If a Muslim extermist is joining a terrorist organization because of the incitements of the article, then they are joining for a purpose (ie, those incitements) and are going to join the terrorist organization that agrees with their goals. That's why a specific mujahadeen might join Hezbollah rather than Al Qaeda. That's why a speicifc donor will give to Hamas rather than Al Qaeda.

If Al Qaeda requires the support of the Muslim world, it is not because Dar-al-Islam is mad at the West. It is because they are indifferent to the West and have other things to worry about. They allow the extremists to recruit and fundraise because the personal benefits (virtually none) to stopping them are outweighed by the monumental costs (recrimination and violence at home).

When someone puts a spotlight on their indifference to terrorism, they will put forth the usual justifications... Western attacks, Israel, war against Islam, etc. But justifications are not causes.

I think the evidence is quite the opposite. Terrorists can operate just fine if the population at large is indifferent as long as there is a core of radicals from whom they can solicit donations and recruits.

Islam in general will take responsibility for their terrorists when the benefits of doing so outweigh the costs.

In broad strokes, there are four ways to stop extreme Muslim terrorism, all of which should be approached simultaneously.
1) Increase the benefits of getting Muslims to stop them... I don't knwo of any way to do this and I have never seen anybody ever suggest something realistic on this angle. I'd love ot hear ideas.
2) Increase the costs of not stopping them. That means pounding the crap out of the entire Muslim world. Not realistic, and as Iraq shows, almost as costly to the pounders as the to the poundees.
3) Eliminate the radical element that does the actual violence. That means getting rid of the madrasas, eliminating wahabbism, great investigative work. This is a long-term approach and will not be 100% effective. There is a diminishing rate of return in which each added dollar to investigative techniques becomes less and less effective in stopping terrorism.
4) Increase your own defenses. This means better border patrols. This means more effective defense at home. This is also not 100% effective and has a diminishing rate of return. Cost-benefit analysis plagues this aspect as surely as the first.

Now, the War in Iraq, in my opinion, was an ambitious, idealistic and ultimately misguided attempt to create benefits to a Muslim nation while simultaneously increasing the costs of supporting terror. The idea was that proseperous and stable Iraq would be a beacon that would convince dar-al-Islam to assimilate Western culture with Western aid and in the interim we'd be pounding on a regime that has (very tangential) links to terror. That aid would then be the benefit outweighing the costs of fighting terrorism. On that note, so far, it has failed. First, the links between Iraq and terror were tenuous at best. Second, even if Iraq eventually becomes proseperous and stable, the costs of the transformation will make it very unlikely that any other nation in dar-al-Islam will want to follow suit.

That said, I have seen no other proposals on how we can effectively manage goals 1 and 2. And I think we have to figure that out quickly if we have any hope of managing this problem. Concentrating solely on goals 3 and 4 will not suffice. And "winning the hearts and minds" of the Islamic world, however laudable, will be ineffective in and irrelevant to fighting terror


I have to disagree. Most terrorist groups operate in communities with more than indifference. The IRA for instance eeded catholic anger. They need to be able to preach, fundraise, hide, justify and recruit. Which terrorist groups did you have in mind that operate without wider support? Maybe there are some but most seem to have it.

I think you are thinking quite linearly about the recruitment. The way you describe the recruitment is that a muslim is angered by incitement and then goes looking for a matching group. I doubt that is how it works. The general hatred makes people more prone to radical teaching. It enables the terrorists to spread their brand of hate, to justify their actions. It allows preachers to get a slot in the London mosque and start spreading the tentacles. I think you will find the London bombers were in support of pretty much all the other islamic terrorist groups around the world.

The thing about al quaeda is that it is all about pulling together varied factions to operate in line with and sometime with direct influence from The Base. It facilitates transfer of ideology and methods and training as part of it's operation.
 
The way you describe the recruitment is that a muslim is angered by incitement and then goes looking for a matching group. I doubt that is how it works.
No. I think the incitements you cited are almost entirely irrelevant to the recruitment.

This is how recruitment works for groups like Al Qaeda who seek to destroy the West:
1- They set up madrassas and other schools that preach hatred and provide community services. the community services ensure the community will support and/or tolerate their presence.
2- Adolescent boys who are (as adolescent boys often are) prone to recruitment into radical anti-establishment and pseudo-empowering ideologies are drawn to them because, well, frankly, they're one of the only games in town.
3- These boys are then indoctrinated. If the indoctrination sticks, they are sent off to training camps or other missions. Eventually, they blow Westerners up.

That's it. The incitements are irrelevant. They are justifications used after the fact and nothing more.

Where did they come from? That's easy. They all stem from the fall of the Ottoman Empire in World War I. They are self-perpetuating cults dedicated ot an idealized vision of a reborn Ottoman Empire ordained by Allah. Why do they hate the West? Because the West destroyed the Ottoman Empire? Yes, but not in the way you think. Just as many Westerners think Rome fell due to its decadence, the main thesis behind the extermists' view of the Ottoman Empire is that it too fell from corruption and decadence... in that the Ottomans tried to Westernize. by setting its capital in Constantinople (renamed Istanbul), in Europe, the Caliphate became corrupted by Western thought. The new reborn Caliphate, they believe, should be pure.

So why do they attack the West? Because they believe Western thought caused the downfall of the last Caliphate and the next Caliphate cannot remain pure until Western thought is crushed. Anything the West does is seen through this lens and becomes a justification for furthering their war. A justification, not a cause. The cause occurred in 1923 when the Ottoman Empire fell (or in 1453 when the Ottoman Empire moved its capital from Bursa to Istanbul). There's nothing we can do about that now.

They do not rely on the active support of the population. They only rely on the tolerance of the population. And since they provide services and they don't generally go around killing the locals, why would the locals do anything about them?

The general hatred makes people more prone to radical teaching.
I see no evidence of that. Muslim extremists, like extremists the world over, are predominantly male and recruited in their early adolescence or adulthood. If "general hatred" affected behavior, we would expect to see a variation in that recruitment from other areas and I have seen no evidence of it.

The simple fact of human psychology is that some young men are going to be disaffected and dissatisfied in every society in the world. Such men are subject to recruitment into organizations that promise them self-worth, power and purpose. The salient difference in Muslim extremists is that some of the specific groups recruiting in the Muslim world have a different underlying ideology than groups elsewhere.

I think you will find the London bombers were in support of pretty much all the other islamic terrorist groups around the world.
So what? That's not inconsistent with my theory. My theory fits the available evidence.

The thing about al quaeda is that it is all about pulling together varied factions to operate in line with and sometime with direct influence from The Base. It facilitates transfer of ideology and methods and training as part of it's operation.
I agree. But that's not "the thing" about Al Qaeda that is most pertinent. What's most pertinent is what their ideology is. And, unlike other groups, it is global, it is based on a clash of cultures, and it is not going to be eradicated by "winning Muslim hearts and minds".
 

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