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Terrorists Thank Germany

That said, the airmen in Catch-22 are actually IN COMBAT whereas BPSCG is not. Get him to explain his theory that Muslim terrorists are out to kill him personally and see if it doesn't sound just a bit paranoid to you. :)

And what military rank did the occupants of the WTC hold? You know, since you're obviously immune from sudden, violent murder if you're not "in combat" and all? And were those victims "unintentional" simply because they weren't known by name to Mohammed Atta et al.?

You, sir, are the one clearly displaying signs of delusion with comments like this.
 
And what military rank did the occupants of the WTC hold? You know, since you're obviously immune from sudden, violent murder if you're not "in combat" and all? And were those victims "unintentional" simply because they weren't known by name to Mohammed Atta et al.?

You, sir, are the one clearly displaying signs of delusion with comments like this.
Don't you worry about Mephisto. He'd never be stupid enough to put himself in a position where Islamists could murder him.

He apparently has a sooper-sekrit hiding place.
 
I'm glad we all agree that there is a reason why these people have issues with us. I don't believe I've directly suggested the removing causes of terrorism would stop it. For starters you cannot remove the causes since you cannot go back in time.

Your argument seems to be that because group B don't attack us even though they had the same provocation as group A that the provocation has nothing to do with causes of the the attack - that is must entirely be down to the ethos of group A. This would only make sense if the provocation was exactly the same. Which it isn't. And furthermore, just because one group is more violently reactive still does not preclude provocation as a cause. Obviously different ethnic groups act differently to each other they all have different histories and different ideas occur to them and are adopted at different times.

To compare Japanese reaction to the 2nd world war with Islam shows how off that argument is. The two are not remotely comparable.

It is not only islamic terrorist engaging in that behaviour in the world today. We had the IRA not so long ago. ETA and the tamils also have terrorised. I agree that the muslim culture and history has made them much more likely and able to do the things they are doing now. They are acting apallingly. BUt I don't believe that they have done this entirely out of an irrational hatred. They DO have an irrational hatred and the extremists who actually do the killing may well be acting from that alone, but as I said before, they need the more rational hatred of the masses to do what they do and get away with it. We can do something about that.

Germany - let's wait and see why these people say why they did it.

One might also ask why many countries have not been attacked. It seems the US and UK are much higher up the list that anyone else and I don't think it's just because they don't like Disney Land.
 
He apparently has a sooper-sekrit hiding place.

Hey, Mexicans hear it all the time, if you think it's too dangerous to work there, quit. (I'll let you explain to everyone where you work).

I live in an area that has no appeal to any terrorist factions, and it's my choice. I know all about the horrible misfortunes your family suffered during WWII, but they felt a need to move for their safety at one time, maybe it's time you moved?

I'll just stay in my rubber room that no one is interested in while you bang your drum how the terrorists are trying to kill you personally.
 
I'm guessing it has rubber walls and padded furniture.

HEY! Your buddy there claims that the terrorist are trying TO KILL HIM PERSONALLY and he can point to a character in an anti-war work of fiction to prove it, and you're calling ME crazy?
 
HEY! Your buddy there claims that the terrorist are trying TO KILL HIM PERSONALLY and he can point to a character in an anti-war work of fiction to prove it, and you're calling ME crazy?

If you think that Islamists are only keen on killing westerners that live in NY and DC, then yes, I am indeed calling you crazy.
 
Your argument seems to be that because group B don't attack us even though they had the same provocation as group A that the provocation has nothing to do with causes of the the attack - that is must entirely be down to the ethos of group A.
I'm not saying it must be. I'm saying that your theory must accomodate this fact. Actually, your theory -- whatever it is -- must accomodate two facts. First, that Muslim extremists act differently than other people with similar provocations. Second, that Muslim extremists attack nations that had nothing to do with the provocations you cited.

This would only make sense if the provocation was exactly the same. Which it isn't.
In what salient way are the provocations that Muslims have suffered different from:
the provocations that non-Muslim Africans, non-Muslim Latin Americans, non-Muslim sub-continental Indians and non-Muslim East Asians have each suffered?

different ethnic groups act differently to each other they all have different histories and different ideas occur to them and are adopted at different times.
That's my point. Radical Muslims react differently, not because of the nature of the supposed provocations, but because of the ideology that causes them to act out. All non-Western peoples have more than ample reasons to hate the West. Only radical Muslims choose to commit terrorism against Western countries -- even those uninvolved in the supposed provocations.

It is not only islamic terrorist engaging in that behaviour in the world today. We had the IRA not so long ago. ETA and the tamils also have terrorised.
The IRA only attacked England. The ETA only attacks Spain. Tamils only attack Sri Lankans. Each of these terror groups managed to focus its ire on the actual people currently causing them harm. (The ETA, for example, could have lashed out at France for historical mistreatment, but did not.) Only radical Muslim terrorists have attacked nations uninvolved in the supposed provocations (such as Germany).

They DO have an irrational hatred and the extremists who actually do the killing may well be acting from that alone, but as I said before, they need the more rational hatred of the masses to do what they do and get away with it.
Where's the evidence that the masses' hatred of the West is "more rational"? I don't see it. As far as I can tell, the Muslim World's tolerance of extremists in their midst committing terrorism is directly related to how much the terrorists help them or harm them. Hezbollah support in Lebanon is a function of their providing charitable relief there. Hamas' support is because they provide a non-corrupt and charitable alternative to Fatah. Fatah's support is because they too provide services to the people.

Zarqawi's support was pretty high in the Middle East until he blew up some of his own native Jordanians. Then it shrank.

That's the basis of terrorist support in the Middle East. If the terrorist is giving them relief, they support him despite care what he does to Europeans. If the terrorist is blowing up their neighbors, then they care. If the terrorist neither supports not harms them, they don't care that he attacks Europeans.

Germany - let's wait and see why these people say why they did it.
How do you distinguish between causation and justification? Are we to take the word of terrorists at face value? I don't think so. As you point out "They DO have an irrational hatred and the extremists who actually do the killing may well be acting from that alone" If their hatred is irrational, what's the point of crediting what they claim is their justification?

It seems the US and UK are much higher up the list that anyone else and I don't think it's just because they don't like Disney Land.
It's because they are the most powerful nations in the West and that's the target of Muslim extremist ire. If France were suddenly to re-emerge as the pre-eminent power in Europe, France would be higher on the list.

If one were to credit the list of rationalizations supplied in the article you cited, one would think that the targets would be based on the nations that were most intimately involved. On that basis, Germany and Australia shouldn't even be on the terrorists' radar (or should be no higher than, say, Japan or Bulgaria). Yet it doesn't seem to work that way. The evidence is not fitting your theory.
 
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If you think that Islamists are only keen on killing westerners that live in NY and DC, then yes, I am indeed calling you crazy.

Whoever said that? I'm scoffing at the notion the the terrorists are trying to kill BPSCG personally. If you're referring to the fact that Islamic terrorists are trying to kill westerners in general, then they're trying to kill me at least as much as they are BPSCG, but you don't hear me whining about it.

(edited to ask) And you'll call ME crazy for suggesting that BPSCG isn't really in any personal danger, but he's the one who can point to a fictional character to prove he's correct? I see you're subscribing to the Apolloyon school of logic. ;)
 
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Whoever said that? I'm scoffing at the notion the the terrorists are trying to kill BPSCG personally.
I asked you before and I'll ask you again: What difference does it make whether they're trying to kill me personally or not, as long as they are, indeed, trying to kill me?
 
Whoever said that? I'm scoffing at the notion the the terrorists are trying to kill BPSCG personally. If you're referring to the fact that Islamic terrorists are trying to kill westerners in general, then they're trying to kill me at least as much as they are BPSCG, but you don't hear me whining about it.

He defines "personally" as a citizen of DC.
You seem to define "personally" (i.e., why you and not someone else) as a citizen of a western country.

Like it or not, you just agreed on the principle if not the degree of specificity.

(edited to ask) And you'll call ME crazy for suggesting that BPSCG isn't really in any personal danger, but he's the one who can point to a fictional character to prove he's correct? I see you're subscribing to the Apolloyon school of logic. ;)

I think we're ALL in some personal danger. And I made no reference to the Catch 22 school of explanation, so I really have no response to your rebuttal of an argument I never made.
 
There were terrorists prior to Iraq. There were many many terror attacks prior to Iraq - see: 9-11, Khobar Towers, Yemen, Kenya....

Iraq is just the excuse du jour for the jihadists, yesterday it was "bases in Saudi" and the day before it was the "invasion of Afghanistan", the day before it was the "plight of the Palestinians"... tomorrow who knows what new grievance they will cook up to rationalize their murder & terror.
Just can’t help but see how easily this can be turned.

There were invasions prior to “fight them there so we don't have to fight them here”. There were many, many invasions prior to the invasion of Iraq. See Vietnam, Haiti, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Nicaragua, Lybia, …

“fight them there so we don't have to fight them here” is just the excuse du jour for the US.
Yesterday it was to form a unity government,
And the day before that it was to liberate the Iraqi people,
And the day before that it was to remove Saddam,
And the day before that it was to rid Saddam of WMDs
And the day before that it was to liberate Kuwait,
And the day before that it was to bring those terrorists to justice,
And the day before that it was “the war on drugs”,
And the day before that it was “for stability”
And the day before that it was “to fight communism”
And the day before that it was “to make the world safe for democracy”,
and on and on and on.
 
Please provide a link showing that anyone claimed otherwise. Otherwise, this is a little more straw.
And we see the Islamist world is grateful for Germany's principled opposition.
Islamists are a diverse group of arseholes who generally pursue an agenda of reshaping the world toward a more Islamist agenda. Within that macro effort, varied agenda and diverse opinions are held on ways and means. Islamism is not some monolithic Borg, it is not a Hive Mind.

The Caliphate has not been restored.

DR
 
It also started well before the US were especially involved in the Middle East.

I think it's because they hate the west. That's fairly comprehensible, at least to me.
-Andrew
On point 1, I disagree, given that US has been involved in Middle East since Israel's creation, to one extent or another. The real leap forward was 1973, and the Yom Kippur War, but the terrorism IMO really kicked off when the Palestinians tried to toss King Hussein out of Jordan, he cracked down, and all of a sudden, a whole bunch of that lot were loose cannons looking for trouble. Black September. The PLO in Jordan was a fine precursor to Hezbollah in Lebanon, except that Lebanon had no King Hussein, no leader, to put a boot up their arses.

wikipedia said:
On September 6, in the series of Dawson's Field hijackings, three planes were hijacked by PFLP: a SwissAir and a TWA in Zarqa and a BOAC in Cairo, on September 9, a British Airways plane at Amman, the passengers were held hostage. The PFLP announced that the hijackings were designed "to teach the Americans a lesson because of their long-standing support of Israel". After all hostages were removed, the planes were demonstratively blown up in front of TV cameras. Directly confronting and angering the King, the rebels declared Irbid area a "liberated region".



On point 2, the "hate the west" is used for some actions, hate the Israel for others, hate the impure, backsliding Muslims yet another (recent Sharm El Sheikh or Sadat's murder for example) and "because my family isn't in power and yours is" for others.

DR
 
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The US have been involved in the middle east since the 2nd world war. I don't hink lufthansa were flying then.

Were the hijackings aimed at Germany as a country or just a convenient flight for getting world attention?

They were more likely aimed at Germany for a matter of convenience. German intelligence units were non-existent due to memories of the Gestapo, etc., so fanatics could plan undisturbed - this is the same reason that Hamburg served as the territory where the 9/11 pilots were recruited. Nobody wanted to look un-PC and intolerant for spying on the savages.
 
Non-Muslim Latin Americans are not flying planes into towers because of how America forcibly stole Texas and California.

Brief de-rail. This is one of those common knowledge "facts" that sound right, but aren't true. Texas, and especially California, had strong independence movements because of absentee governance and disinterest by Mexico City. Mexico was even paid a large sum of money as a reparation by the US for the annexation of Texas - which, along with CA, was a non-issue for it until the areas started becoming more developed by settlers.
 
I assume you mean this hijacking:

"1972: Hijackers surrender and free Lufthansa crew"


I take it you mean the 23 February 1972 hijacking?

Well, that could be one of them. Or any of these:

29 October 1972

17 December 1973

13 October 1977

-Andrew
 

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