Understanding the Liberal Mindset

[theprestige]

are you like barely open to it or?

I mean, everyone loses their minds over "both-sides-ism", so I don't want to get too far in front of the conversation. If you were to propose that self-identified left-wing politicians are really just cynical and corrupt, and that left-wing voters are often too naive and/or stupid to notice, then I'd be inclined to agree with you. Just like I'd be inclined to agree with you if you said the same things about the right wing.

What I'm not inclined to agree with is the proposal that if they're cynical and corrupt, they must be right-wing.

 

[johnny karate]

I'm telling you, these are left wing policies, implemented by left-wing politicians that were elected by left-wing voters.

You literally said the opposite before:

Honestly I never would have expected privatization from the left, before I came to Portland and saw it in action. The degree of fraud and waste that has resulted from this policy here in Portland has also been a pretty big shock.

Upset? Sure, I guess. Baffled is probably more accurate. But yeah, I don't think you're internalizing the information I'm providing.

Kind of hard to when you make in inconsistent claims.

 

[dirtywick]

No one is denying that left wing politicians can be corrupt. Of course they can be and there are numerous examples.

But you are complaining about left wing politicians engaging in corruption through right wing policies and some of us are making the obvious observation that politicians with right wing policies definitionally don’t seem very left wing.

For some reason, this upsets you even though we’re getting all this information from you.

i agree, if i had voted for a democratic socialist party, and they won, and then started privatizing all the public services and handing out blank checks to private companies to do what they wanted, i'd feel like i got duped. i elected a democratic socialist and i'm getting a polar opposite libertarian policy

 

[theprestige]

You literally said the opposite before:

How is that the opposite?

Kind of hard to when you make in inconsistent claims.

How is it inconsistent to update my point of view with new information?

 

[theprestige]

i agree, if i had voted for a democratic socialist party, and they won, and then started privatizing all the public services and handing out blank checks to private companies to do what they wanted, i'd feel like i got duped. i elected a democratic socialist and i'm getting a polar opposite libertarian policy

Are non-profits providing services to the government really a libertarian thing? I thought state-directed industry was a totalitarian thing.

Libertarians would just cut out the government middleman, and provide private services to private customers.

 

[johnny karate]

I mean, everyone loses their minds over "both-sides-ism", so I don't want to get too far in front of the conversation. If you were to propose that self-identified left-wing politicians are really just cynical and corrupt, and that left-wing voters are often too naive and/or stupid to notice, then I'd be inclined to agree with you. Just like I'd be inclined to agree with you if you said the same things about the right wing.

What I'm not inclined to agree with is the proposal that if they're cynical and corrupt, they must be right-wing.

No one is arguing that cynical and corrupt politicians exist only on the right.

The argument (at least mine) is that the right more enthusiastically embraces cynicism and corruption than the left.

The evidence of that is the current state of the U.S. government run completely by the right.

 

[johnny karate]

How is that the opposite?

Privatization isn’t a left wing policy and even if you want to argue that it is (it isn’t) no one would ever by surprised by left wing politicians enacting left wing policies.

How is it inconsistent to update my point of view with new information?

Your point of view seems to have been updated to say that definitionally right wing policies must actually be left wing because politicians claiming to be left wing have enacted them, which feels like taking the long way around to avoid blaming anything on bad right wing policies.

 

[theprestige]

Privatization isn’t a left wing policy

Clearly it is. Left wingers contract with non-profits to provide government services all the time. NGOs are adored by left-wingers.

and even if you want to argue that it is (it isn’t) no one would ever by surprised by left wing politicians enacting left wing policies.

True, but a lot of people seem so surprised that these left wing policies cold suck in practice that they have trouble even admitting they're left-wing policies.

Your point of view seems to have been updated to say that definitionally right wing policies must actually be left wing because politicians claiming to be left wing have enacted them, which feels like taking the long way around to avoid blaming anything on bad right wing policies.

"Definitionally right wing" is your axiom, not mine.

 

[Emily's Cat]

are you like barely open to it or?

I don't know about theprestige, but I'm extremely open to the possibility that ALL politicians are cynical and corrupt.

 

[johnny karate]

Clearly it is. Left wingers contract with non-profits to provide government services all the time. NGOs are adored by left-wingers.


True, but a lot of people seem so surprised that these left wing policies cold suck in practice that they have trouble even admitting they're left-wing policies.


"Definitionally right wing" is your axiom, not mine.

It continues to be weird that you were surprised by left wing politicians enacting policies you now claim are left wing.

The easiest way to resolve this is for you to tell us what the Democratic Socialists of America think about privatization, then we’ll know if these policies are really in line with their ideology.

Let us know what you find.

 

[theprestige]

It seems like we have broad consensus that shoveling money to private entities, whether for profit or non profit, to do the proper job of government, is a bad idea. Let's not forget the other side of my coin: Raising taxes to increase funding for broken systems and failing policies.

 

[dirtywick]

Are non-profits providing services to the government really a libertarian thing? I thought state-directed industry was a totalitarian thing.

Libertarians would just cut out the government middleman, and provide private services to private customers.

yeah, i think libertarians would ultimately prefer that the most. that's a fair statement

 

[johnny karate]

I don't know about theprestige, but I'm extremely open to the possibility that ALL politicians are cynical and corrupt.

“Everything is the same and nothing is different” spoketh the wise sage.

 

[johnny karate]

It seems like we have broad consensus that shoveling money to private entities, whether for profit or non profit, to do the proper job of government, is a bad idea. Let's not forget the other side of my coin: Raising taxes to increase funding for broken systems and failing policies.

Voting for conservatives will never get you there and will in fact move you in the opposite direction.

 

[theprestige]

Voting for conservatives will never get you there and will in fact move you in the opposite direction.

Kind of hard to imagine getting much further in the direction Portland's headed already.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Kind of hard to imagine getting much further in the direction Portland's headed already.

That window of yours is pretty far to the right, though. So your imagination might be your limiting factor here.

 

[Mojo]

I mean... there's also the rather stark observation that over the last 100 years or so, the leftiest left-wing nations have been absolutely full to the brim of corruption and cronyism.

The USA is among the leftiest left-wing nations?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

"we have been really, really bad, so obviously the people I disagree with must have been way, way worse" fallacy

 

[arthwollipot]

Clearly it is. Left wingers contract with non-profits to provide government services all the time. NGOs are adored by left-wingers.

Lefties love nonprofits. Nonprofits are generally NGOs, pretty much by definition, but NGOs are just as often independent for-profit corporations, and therefore firmly on the right.

 

[johnny karate]

Kind of hard to imagine getting much further in the direction Portland's headed already.

Yeah, politics is messy and imperfect. It sucks when the candidates you vote for let you down, but voting against your preferred policy positions will never remedy that.