Understanding the Liberal Mindset

[The Great Zaganza]

"The government" is an unwarranted generalization.
Singapore running a tight ship, but is involved in every aspect of running the city State.
It's not that governments can't deliver, it's just that some people have an interest in keeping it disfunctional

 

[arthwollipot]

I think my local leftists don't think it's right-wing when the money is going to non-profits.

Exactly. In America, even the "Left" is right-wing. It's what we non-Americans have been saying for years.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Actually, it is a wide-spread right-wing position that there is very little the government should do. So if we want to draw a line between right and left-wing positions (not necessarily your own position on this), we need to define where to draw the line between what the government should do and what not. We have Ayn Rand-admirers on one side, and anarcho-syndicalists on the other side, and somewhere between them there is the line between right and left. Possibly,we should also define a grey area called the "moderates".

It's not right versus left, it's libertarian versus authoritarian. There are plenty of people out there who favor left-wing economic policy, and also favor authoritarian social policies to get there. "Big government" versus "small government" is an oversimplification. For a whole lot of people, the desire is right-sized government to do things a government should do and not do things a government shouldn't do, to maintain balance between liberty and authority.

And for a whole lot of normal people, it's not "always conservative" or "always progressive". It's don't break what we currently have until you have something better to put in place, don't use the population as a social experiment, don't say "oh let's just try it" when it's people's safety and livelihoods on the line. Not all progress is good, not all tradition is bad.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Bashing the libs is far more popular.

What forum are you posting on? Because about 90% of the content in the various politics, social issues, and current events forums is bashing conservatives... and has been for well over a decade.

 

[johnny karate]

Yep, pretty much. It's not the tax rates that are the issue. It's the complete lack of our government's ability to actually deliver results, or even appropriately identify the problem they're trying to fix. "We just need more money" isn't an acceptable approach when the money's not being used wisely.

It's the same overarching view I have regarding regulations. I'm not opposed to regulations, by any means - there are definitely some industries and endeavors that absolutely need oversight. But we also have a humongous pile of pointless and ineffective regulations that don't actually accomplish what they're supposed to accomplish. Clean them up, get rid of the stuff that isn't working, and craft regulations that directly address the risks that require oversight.

So let's vote for the people who want to cut taxes and regulations for the benefit of the wealthy and never fix anything.

No wonder this country is going down the drain. We're overrun with people who think voting for the opposite of the thing they want is better than voting for the imperfect version of the thing they want.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Libertarian and authoritarian is the same if you are being honest.

Anarchism is the opposite of authoritarianism

 

[johnny karate]

It's not right versus left, it's libertarian versus authoritarian. There are plenty of people out there who favor left-wing economic policy, and also favor authoritarian social policies to get there. "Big government" versus "small government" is an oversimplification. For a whole lot of people, the desire is right-sized government to do things a government should do and not do things a government shouldn't do, to maintain balance between liberty and authority.

And for a whole lot of normal people, it's not "always conservative" or "always progressive". It's don't break what we currently have until you have something better to put in place, don't use the population as a social experiment, don't say "oh let's just try it" when it's people's safety and livelihoods on the line. Not all progress is good, not all tradition is bad.

America is currently on fire under authoritarian Republican rule and here come the brightest minds on the forum to bothsides social ills.

 

[jt512]

Honestly I'd welcome a 70‰ wealth tax on the highest brackets…

That would be economic suicide. No one would pay it. They would simply relocate to less economically hostile locales. Watch New York.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's not my fault this left-wing city council likes to funnel tax revenue into the pockets of friendly non-profit directors. You get confused because you still can't comprehend the idea of left-wing politicians being incompetent and corrupt.

I mean... there's also the rather stark observation that over the last 100 years or so, the leftiest left-wing nations have been absolutely full to the brim of corruption and cronyism. There isn't a single country out there that has tried communism, or even communist-adjacent-heavy-socialism that hasn't ended up with a substantial amount of corruption. All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others...

 

[Emily's Cat]

like i said earlier, i'm not in tune with local portland politics. my best guess is they aren't the left wing ideologues you thought they were

Sure sure, and neither are the folks in charge of LA and most of California...

 

[jt512]

Exactly. In America, even the "Left" is right-wing. It's what we non-Americans have been saying for years.

And that’s why non-America is being left in the dust.

 

[arthwollipot]

And that’s why non-America is being left in the dust.

Is it? So your claim is that we are experiencing a rennaissance of scientific inquiry in America and not a wholesale evacuation of scientists to other countries' institutions while America regresses into literal Lysenkoism where scientific inquiry is subservient to political authority? Where every peer-review panel has to have a Political Officer to ensure that results align with the Administration's goals? Interesting.

 

[johnny karate]

That would be economic suicide. No one would pay it. They would simply relocate to less economically hostile locales. Watch New York.

We are.

The Rich Promised to Flee Mamdani’s New York. They Haven’t.

Jamie Dimon warned high taxes would push business out of New York, but the city is honing its edge over Miami in attracting top talent, report finds

New Data Confirm Tax Flight Is A Myth

 

[johnny karate]

Sure sure, and neither are the folks in charge of LA and most of California...

For the most part, they aren't. They're mostly centrist Democrats who cozy up to quite a few Republican policy positions. The progressive candidate lost his bid for governor in the primary, so now it's between a centrist establishment Democrat and a Republican. Very few if any leftist polices will come out of that.

Los Angeles has a chance at a progressive mayor, but she has to beat the centrist establishment Democrat incumbent to get there. That could possible push policy positions to the left, but we'll see.

Regardless, the idea that California is run by "leftist ideologues" is a myth perpetuated by brain-dead MAGA morons who have no idea how anything actually works.

 

[theprestige]

like i said earlier, i'm not in tune with local portland politics. my best guess is they aren't the left wing ideologues you thought they were

Literally a third of the city council are members of the Democratic Socialists of America. None of the councilors are affiliated with the GOP or other conservative parties. I think they're every bit the left wing ideologues I think they are. I think they get in bed with non-profits that are supposedly being run by like-minded left-wing ideologues, and then the corruption sets in.

I am, however, open to the possibility that they're not particularly ideological at all, just cynical corrupt politicians pandering to a left wing ideologue voter base that apparently prefers virtue signaling over results. Part of the DSA platform is literally "tax the rich", which seems to get a lot of mileage among voters around here.

 

[theprestige]

Seems like you did considering that you're here complaining about their right wing policies. You even acknowledged this earlier in the thread:


Kind of seems like you're just arguing with yourself at this point.

Kind of seems like you're going with the no true scotsman thing. I'm telling you that I have direct experience of left-wing politicians behaving this way, and the best you can do is say they must not be left wing. I think the simpler explanation, that fully accounts for all the observations, is that this kind of nonsense happens on the left as well as the right.

 

[johnny karate]

Kind of seems like you're going with the no true scotsman thing. I'm telling you that I have direct experience of left-wing politicians behaving this way, and the best you can do is say they must not be left wing. I think the simpler explanation, that fully accounts for all the observations, is that this kind of nonsense happens on the left as well as the right.

No one is denying that left wing politicians can be corrupt. Of course they can be and there are numerous examples.

But you are complaining about left wing politicians engaging in corruption through right wing policies and some of us are making the obvious observation that politicians with right wing policies definitionally don’t seem very left wing.

For some reason, this upsets you even though we’re getting all this information from you.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The Y-donor and I had different Weltansschaugnnen.

 

[theprestige]

No one is denying that left wing politicians can be corrupt. Of course they can be and there are numerous examples.

Yes, I'm giving one.

But you are complaining about left wing politicians engaging in corruption through right wing policies and some of us are making the obvious observation that politicians with right wing policies definitionally don’t seem very left wing.

I'm telling you, these are left wing policies, implemented by left-wing politicians that were elected by left-wing voters.

For some reason, this upsets you even though we’re getting all this information from you.

Upset? Sure, I guess. Baffled is probably more accurate. But yeah, I don't think you're internalizing the information I'm providing.

 

[dirtywick]

I am, however, open to the possibility that they're not particularly ideological at all, just cynical corrupt politicians pandering to a left wing ideologue voter base that apparently prefers virtue signaling over results. Part of the DSA platform is literally "tax the rich", which seems to get a lot of mileage among voters around here.

are you like barely open to it or?