The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

[Vixen]

So you are changing your story and shifting your goalposts.

It wasn't a secret dive now.

It's only not secret when they choose to publicise it.

 

[dorricc0]

Given the Swedish Navy have prime authority over the official dives, and Finland together with Sweden (due to it being in Finnish waters) act as coastguards. All their dives are closely project managed and reported on. It should be very obvious that anyone else's dives are ipso facto 'secret dives'. You don't know what the heck they are doing down there. We know about Rabe, Bemis, Evertsson and Kum because they have publicised it. You nor Axxman are able to state there are no secret dives when theoretically, you can hop on a German boat under a German flag, wave the coastguards away and do your own thing, with no-one being none the wiser.

The ONLY way you can turn up to do a dive is under a German flag in a German boat setting off from Germany, the nearest non-Treaty country. As it is not an OFFICIAL dive with a set PROJECT with aims, and detailed steps of why, how and where and what you hope to find it becomes an UNKNOWN, SECRET dive as far as the authorities are concerned. If you come from any of the other eight countries, you'll be chased out of the area WITHOUT ANY DIVE AT ALL. So, yes, those turning up under a German flag are secret unknown dives and nobody knows what they get up to around the wreckage. As I was saying to Axxman. But never mind.

Oh right, so you as a coastguard see a dot on the horizon. Some guy claiming to be German. So you think you know all about his dive, what he did, where he went, and what he found.

These three post demonstrate (as if it needed further demonstration) that Vixen knows nothing about commercial diving or marine operations. There is no reason to argue these points any further, these statements are non-factual, speculative, fantasy, gibberish.

 

[Vixen]

Which has what to do with Russian software, which is what you were referring to?

From: New York Times

The Soviet Union is marketing an array of secretive items from its space program -- things that no spies or reconnaissance satellites could have pried loose during the cold war -- and the United States is so interested that it is sending teams of bargain hunters to look at the merchandise.

Items on the block include nuclear reactors, satellites, rocket engines, space stations, plutonium for compact power sources and a host of scientific reports on space testing and experiments. The goods are seen as the cream of the Soviet industrial complex and in some cases are considered better than similar items in the West.

"Nobody ever contemplated that the Soviet military-industrial complex would end up in Chapter 11," said Russell Seitz, an associate at the Olin Center for Strategic Studies at Harvard University who monitors the Soviet activity. "It's the yard sale at the end of history." Some Are Resisting

This is a digitized version of an article from The Times’s print archive, before the start of online publication in 1996. To preserve these articles as they originally appeared, The Times does not alter, edit or update them.
Occasionally the digitization process introduces transcription errors or other problems; we are continuing to work to improve these archived versions.

 

[dorricc0]

Especially as, I suspect, a dive ship has a recognisabley different (from other ships) superstructure. Oh, where's @JayUtah when you need him, he'd know.

I can help! First of all there are (and were in 1994) only a few contractors worldwide with saturation diving capability, and those names are written in big letters on the side of the ship... Furthermore there are (and were in 1994) only a few saturation diving support vessels globally. Further to that, they invariably have a muckle great crane on the aft deck for deploying equipment subsea (diverless ROV support vessels have these too, which would be equally notable / suspicious / illegal) and ROVs c/w TMS deployed (quite visibly) either from dedicated hangers or launched over the side in an A-frame. In the 1990s a number of semi-submersibles (as opposed to ship-shaped monohulls) were in use as diving support vessels, (indeed such as the Rockwater SEMI 1 that performed the JAIC survey), and they are even more noticeable!

Vixen's notion that the coastguard would not notice, or note, or mistake for something else, a dive vessel over the wreck site is uninformed fantasy.

 

[Vixen]

I can help! First of all there are (and were in 1994) only a few contractors worldwide with saturation diving capability, and those names are written in big letters on the side of the ship... Furthermore there are (and were in 1994) only a few saturation diving support vessels globally. Further to that, they invariably have a muckle great crane on the aft deck for deploying equipment subsea (diverless ROV support vessels have these too, which would be equally notable / suspicious / illegal) and ROVs c/w TMS deployed (quite visibly) either from dedicated hangers or launched over the side in an A-frame. In the 1990s a number of semi-submersibles (as opposed to ship-shaped monohulls) were in use as diving support vessels, (indeed such as the Rockwater SEMI 1 that performed the JAIC survey), and they are even more noticeable!

Vixen's notion that the coastguard would not notice, or note, or mistake for something else, a dive vessel over the wreck site is uninformed fantasy.

That's nonsense. Of course the coastguards noticed. They are constrained by how far their legal powers stretch in international waters.

Finally it has to be mentioned that the operation did not proceed completely undisturbed by the Swedes and Finns because there was always a “little of something”.
In detail:

• The satellite telephone was cut off after the third day on site.
• An additional satellite telephone installation from DER SPIEGEL was disturb-ed all the time and only ‘scrambled’ word fragments could be understood.
• The computerised GPS system of Polaris images was disturbed and showed malfunctioning and incorrect positioning.
• One Eagle’s own GPS system behaved similarly.
• The Swedish Coast Guard closely watched and filmed all the time very near the activities and was deliberately trying to mislead One Eagle’s master during the search for the wreck.
• Coast Guard air planes and helicopters were performing day to day very intensive surveillance work, by flying past the One Eagle at a short distance and performing rescue exercises.
• The Finnish Coast Guard carried out a water-spraying exercise while the Estonian Navy was performing a mine-hunting exercise nearby.
• Several times Swedish warships passed very close to One Eagle and all this in spite of the fact that according to the laws of these countries – Sweden, Finland, Estonia – the area was a graveyard from which all activities were banned.

estoniaferrydisaster.net

estoniaferrydisaster.net

 

[Mojo]

They were OK to dive. The coastguards could not stop them. The prosecution came years later.

You were claiming it was "secret".

 

[Mojo]

It's only not secret when they choose to publicise it.

No, it's only secret if nobody else knows about it.

 

[Vixen]

You were claiming it was "secret".

It was a secret dive. Nobody knew that a piece of metal from the bow had been cut off during the dive until they later revealed it. Their aim was to publicise it the whole thing. It is only public because they made it so!

 

[Mojo]

From an article: (Nota Bene, Henriksson is the customs man wo blew the whistle on the smuggling, which Hirschfeldt confirmed.)

When the ferry arrived on Sept. 14, 1994, Henriksson spoke to the driver of the expected vehicle, a Volvo 745 station wagon driven by a Frank Larsson, a false identity. When Henriksson told "Larsson" that customs was carrying out inspections, he "gave me a look, but I said the search would be faked,"



Henriksson said. "We opened a few boxes and as far as I could see it was military electronics in them." The customs slip showed the car belonging to a non-existent company called Ericsson Access AB, a fictitious subsidiary of AB LM Ericsson Finance. No address was given. Henriksson discovered later that the vehicle was a rental car. There is no evidence that Ericsson was actually involved in the smuggling. Although the Swedish military authorized the smuggling, the final destination of the Soviet technology is not known.



A week later, on September 20, 1994, a much larger shipment of contraband technology arrived and was allowed to pass without inspection. This time it was a van and, once again, Henriksson merely glanced into the boxes. "What were you thinking this second time?" reporter Lars Borgnäs asked. "I thought it was a strange procedure," Henriksson said. "But orders are orders and you don't reflect too much on why."


https://citizens-lives-destroyed-swedish-authorities8.webnode.page/estonia-disaster/
That is, electronics, not hardware weapons.

I do recommend looking up the previous discussions on this issue as I for one can't see the point on going over old ground unless you can see an issue arising out of it.

 

[Vixen]

No, it's only secret if nobody else knows about it.

Likewise Evertsson. No-one knew about what they filmed (the hull holes) until they broadcast it. The fact you would not have known about this unless they had, indeed makes its status a secret dive.

 

[Mojo]

It was a secret dive. Nobody knew that a piece of metal from the bow had been cut off during the dive until they later revealed it. Their aim was to publicise it the whole thing. It is only public because they made it so!

No, it's only secret if nobody else knows about it.

 

[Mojo]

Likewise Evertsson. No-one knew about what they filmed (the hull holes) until they broadcast it. The fact you would not have known about this unless they had, indeed makes its status a secret dive.

No, it's only secret if nobody else knows about it. You were claiming that there were dives that nobody knew about. You know, "secret" ones.

 

[Vixen]

No, it's only secret if nobody else knows about it.

The Enigma Code is not secret because everyone knows about it. It can't have been secret because everybody now knows about it!

 

[Dabop]

Don't give Vixen ideas. Now she's sure to work SEAL delivery vehicles into her espionage thriller about secret dives to the Estonia to find the truth of what was going on.

Do the seals deliver to Heard Island???
The penguins need some new delivery people since trump put tariffs on them lol

 

[Mojo]

The Enigma Code is not secret because everyone knows about it. It can't have been secret because everybody now knows about it!

Have you ever heard of the concept of time? Or even the idea of a theory of mind?

 

[Mojo]

Do the seals deliver to Heard Island???
The penguins need some new delivery people since trump put tariffs on them lol

Maybe the lizards could handle it now they're no longer needed on the Estonia.

 

[Vixen]

You want to excuse the cause of the accident. That cause was the many layers of misconduct and negligence that resulted in hundreds and hundreds of horrific deaths. It's cute when a toddler tries to blame ninjas for a broken vase after attempting indoor batting practice, but not as cute when an adult tries to blame spies, saboteurs, submarines, smugglers, and shadowy assassins for the entirely predictable results of criminally irresponsible risk-taking at sea.

Unfortunately, no-one has ever been prosecuted or charged.

 

[Mojo]

Unfortunately, no-one has ever been prosecuted or charged.

Fortunately, no-one has ever been prosecuted or charged on the basis of your conjectures.

 

[JesseCuster]

Ok, a dive vessel flying a German flag turned up at the site of the Estonia sinking, told the Finnish and/or Swedish coastguard they were German and to go away, instructions which the coastguard willingly followed, the German dive vessel then hung around the site of the Estonia wreck until their dive mission was complete, after which they returned to Germany and then publicised the results of their dive. And we are to believe that this is a "secret dive" because the German vessel didn't reveal the particulars of their dive mission to the coastguard and it was also secret because only authorised Swedish or Finnish dive vessels should be able to access the Estonia... despite the Finnish and/or Swedish allowing an unauthorised vessel access to the site, but also agreeing to keep a safe distance away for some reason?

 

[Mojo]

Ok, a dive vessel flying a German flag turned up at the site of the Estonia sinking, told the Finnish and/or Swedish coastguard they were German and to go away, instructions which the coastguard willingly followed, the German dive vessel then hung around the site of the Estonia wreck until their dive mission was complete, after which they returned to Germany and then publicised the results of their dive. And we are to believe that this is a "secret dive" because the German vessel didn't reveal the particulars of their dive mission to the coastguard and it was also secret because only authorised Swedish or Finnish dive vessels should be able to access the Estonia... despite the Finnish and/or Swedish allowing an unauthorised vessel access to the site, but also agreeing to keep a safe distance away for some reason?

<sfx Leslie Nielsen: Move along, nothing to see here.>