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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

…. Re the rally driver on British tv when asked where he had been replied, 'I was having a ◊◊◊◊'.
And this is why we ask for actual cites instead of your usually inaccurate recollections.
That was, in fact, Kimi Raikkonen at the 2006 Formula One Grand Prix.

Your post is typical example of most - incorrect, and the reason you get called out so often in any thread you post in.
This is not bullying as you tend to claim when backed into a corner, merely a calling out of your numerous incorrect or inaccurate “facts”
 
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AIUI the early naval divers recruited to survey the scene, were doing it for a military report,
Cite? Whose military was commissioned to dive on the Estonia and , please, a link to the supposed “military report” on this dive.
so I can see no reason why they would not have described exactly what they saw. This is a survey, not a party political broadcast designed to 'reassure the public' or cover up systemic mishaps or practices.
Again, do you have a source for this assertion?
 
Please stop using the word 'we' and just speak for yourself.
Bull:poop:. In case you haven't noticed, most everyone else here believes you're a conspiracy theorist, too, and several have outright said so. And, as usual, you're just looking for some peripheral point to attempt to use as a distraction because you don't want to address the substance of my post, namely, the sheer absurdity of your claim to value honesty, integrity, and authenticity.

It is a logical fallacy to appeal to the crowd . . .
Also as usual, you don't know what you're talking about. An appeal to the crowd, or argumentum ad populum, fallacy would occur if I said something like "We all think Vixen is a conspiracy theorist, and that many people can't be wrong."

. . . and to claim you speak for a 'we'.
Saying "we've seen . . ." isn't claiming to speak for others; it's an observation, as is my statement that your attempts to shame "us" in order to mute criticism won't work.

Take ownership of your own views.
See above.
 
One of the ship's engineers who was doing the rounds, was immediately behind Capt Andresson as he was making his way up the steps to the bridge to take over, as is protocol every X number of hours. The ship lurched at that very moment the clocks changed from East European Time to Swedish time. from 01:00 to 12:00 and so the remarkably fast sinking began. The persons who would or should have been on the bridge have all been identified as to where they ended up during the disaster, yet no-one has been able to identify the man with the hand tattoo under the cabinet.
Evasion noted. None of this addresses any of the reasons why, as has been explained to you, an authorized member of the crew might have been wearing some sort of red outfit on the bridge rather than his regular uniform.
 
I was actually talking about the specific hand gesture across the throat which the individual claimed meant a literally slit throat when it simply signifies a grim reality and also is a common masons gesture. That's all! I wasn't impugning Freemasons.
And, just like the first time you tried to weasel out of responsibility for what you'd said, you left out the part where you'd claimed that one of the purposes of the sign (which you'd conflated with the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress) was to allow a Freemason defendant to identify himself to a Freemason judge so that the judge would let him off. So explain to me again how you weren't impugning Freemasonry. :rolleyes:
 
8 pages of the book, translated to Swedish is available here: https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?Fritext=SE/SPF/1/ES/22&page=60&postid=Arkis+F75BF2A2-6ED2-446E-BD64-7C8912CD27B2&tab=post#tab

It reads as a diary/stream of consciousness type writing, rather than a clear structured analysis of a situation.
I copied some text from the Swedish translation, and then used Google translate to get it into English. So it an unknown translation from Estonian to Swedish, and then an unofficial translation to English. That is - I wouldn't really trust that what I quote below is matches the source.

During the dives in December 1994, according to service records, no fatalities on the bridge were identified, nor were the cabins of the senior ship's officers looked in. From the investigation's videotape recordings, the bodies of the dead cannot be seen (on the bridge?). The explanation given was that there was no order to identify the ship's officers, they were not included in the video images due to poor visibility. The video images on the ship's navigation devices do not confirm this.

Page 210

According to the divers, there was a body with a brown jacket lying next to the exit. The crew did not wear brown jackets (uniform coats).

The observer present on the survey vessel, Captain Aarne Valgma, later did not recognize the Finn with whom he had spent three days in the room where the divers' work was monitored on monitors (screens). He must have been mistaken when he thought he was Tuomo Karppinen. He must also have been mistaken when he thought he saw the dead on the camera image. The visibility in the wreck had been so poor that nothing was visible.
 
Evasion noted. None of this addresses any of the reasons why, as has been explained to you, an authorized member of the crew might have been wearing some sort of red outfit on the bridge rather than his regular uniform.
As I pointed out a red outfit might well be his regular uniform for work hours or storm conditions.
If the ship was being abandoned it could even be an immersion suit.
 
I copied some text from the Swedish translation, and then used Google translate to get it into English. So it an unknown translation from Estonian to Swedish, and then an unofficial translation to English. That is - I wouldn't really trust that what I quote below is matches the source.
Almost the exact opposite of claims we have seen in this thread.
 
That is not correct. When posters sneered, you ain't no scientist, I quite rightly corrected them. The fact they are not interested in the how and why tells me the aim in asking is not predicated in good faith.
You're lying again, both about being a scientist when you're not and about what happened.

Can you not go even one post without a lie?
 
Excellent, as you yourself affirm I made the following clear:

Vixen said:
I was a psychologist for a short time as a member of the British Psychological Society. If you practise your field you you can call yourself by the term you are professionally recognised as. I am no longer a member of BPS and no longer call myself a psychologist. However, that doesn't mean I have forgotten all my scientific training.

I did not say it was my current profession. ETA: When one has honesty, integrity and authenticity as core values, it is remarkable the incredible lengths some people will go to try to drag you down.
The BPS requires a psychology degree for full, as opposed to student, membership. Do you have such?
 
Still fourth-hand hearsay.
Do you have a actual source, such as JAIC or RockWellWater, as you assert, that describes the three bodies on the bridge and the “fact” of a bullet wound.
Ainsalu and Tammes, who was found dead in the water in a life jacket, are known to have left the bridge. I suggest using search if you want to know about the bridge movements and protocols. AI overview tells you:

During the M/S Estonia disaster, the Master, Captain Arvo Andresson, the Chief Officer Juhan Herma, and the Fourth Officer Kaimar Kikas are believed to have remained on the bridge until the ship sank, as their bodies were found there during the diving investigation. The Second Officer Peeter Kannussaar and Third Officer Andres Tammes were seen leaving the bridge to assist with launching lifeboats and distributing life jackets in the final stages of the accident.
Officers believed to have remained on the bridge:

  • Captain Arvo Andresson:Believed to have stayed on the bridge.
  • Juhan Herma:Chief Officer and believed to have remained on the bridge.
  • Kaimar Kikas:Fourth Officer, who asked for assistance with pumping freshwater overboard, suggesting his presence on the bridge.
Officers seen leaving the bridge:

These two officers were seen assisting in the process of releasing lifeboats and distributing life jackets to passengers and crew in the latter part of the catastrophe.

The final report of the investigation indicated that the crew on the bridge did not realize the severity of the incident as quickly as they could have, partly due to the inability to see the detached bow visor from the conning position. This delay in understanding the unfolding events significantly reduced the chances of survival for those on board.
 
Cite? Whose military was commissioned to dive on the Estonia and , please, a link to the supposed “military report” on this dive.

Again, do you have a source for this assertion?
Initially the Swedish navy sent teams down to ascertain likelihood of recovery. A team went down to retrieve Capt Piht's attaché case. The Swedes carried out dives in secrecy not inviting Estonia or Finland (being the Swedish Navy). The wreck was nearest Finnish waters, so their Navy likely did some of its own inspections (cf; Lehtola, to investigate possible radioactivity). You should be able to search the discussions on this. Rockwater is an official dive and report.
 
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And, just like the first time you tried to weasel out of responsibility for what you'd said, you left out the part where you'd claimed that one of the purposes of the sign (which you'd conflated with the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress) was to allow a Freemason defendant to identify himself to a Freemason judge so that the judge would let him off. So explain to me again how you weren't impugning Freemasonry. :rolleyes:
I said it was a popular myth.
 
I copied some text from the Swedish translation, and then used Google translate to get it into English. So it an unknown translation from Estonian to Swedish, and then an unofficial translation to English. That is - I wouldn't really trust that what I quote below is matches the source.
Rabe quotes p. 140, re the 'shot through the head' body of Andresson.
 

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