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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Vixen said:
... it is in the public interest to know what was the issue with the captain and why he wasn't in control of the ship, re speed and how quickly the emergency was dealt with.
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The report tells the interested public that the captain was in control of the ship but that he had a contract which obliged him to sail faster than was safe in less sheltered waters than was safe in order to have a chance of arriving when ordered.
 
Vixen said:
Oh no, not again. Oceanos was floating tilting on its hull, not its infrastructure. It sank like a stone because its engine room was being slowly flooded.
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And so did the Estonia. It sank when the machinery spaces, the larges open spaces on the ship flooded through the many openings in to them. Engine rooms are open at the top via air intakes and exhausts for the engines, generators, air conditioning and other cooling systems.

They can't be closed, once the water reaches them the ship is usually doomed as the volume of the machinery spaces is large enough to overcome the reserve buoyancy in the remaining hull space.

Oceanos flooded through broken sea pipes, it was slow because the ingress was through fairly small diameter openings where the failed sea pipes penetrated the hull. Once it was far enough over and down for the water to get to the large air intake and exhaust openings the sinking rate increased.
 
Vixen said:
That is what is claimed. Re the two Finnish armed forces guys, it's not that they 'don't lie', they don't bother putting a PR spin on things. It's cultural. Re the rally driver on British tv when asked where he had been replied, 'I was having a ◊◊◊◊'
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That's just an opinion on your part, it's not evidence for an assassin murdering the captain.
What would be the point when the ship was doomed anyway.
What half assed assassin would let himself go down with his victim?
 
Vixen said:
From AI overview:

The RMS Lusitania

  • Ownership:In 1982, Bemis acquired the wreck of the RMS Lusitania for a nominal fee, taking full ownership of the sunken British liner.
  • Protected Status:The Lusitania is considered a protected wreck by the Irish government, and diving on it requires permission from both the authorities and Bemis as the owner.
  • Controversy:Bemis's ownership and the wreck's protected status have contributed to the controversy surrounding the Lusitania, which was torpedoed and sunk by a German U-boat in 1915 during World War I.
Bemis was an expert diver as well as sailor and all things marine-related.
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I'm still confused. How does 'one of the fathers of the modern day racing rules' and judge at the Olympics & America’s Cup sailing competitions, and owner of another shipwreck, and 'expert diver', have expertise in identifying seabed tracks?
(Also, nobody is an expert in 'all things marine-related').
 
Andy_Ross said:
And so did the Estonia. It sank when the machinery spaces, the larges open spaces on the ship flooded through the many openings in to them. Engine rooms are open at the top via air intakes and exhausts for the engines, generators, air conditioning and other cooling systems.

They can't be closed, once the water reaches them the ship is usually doomed as the volume of the machinery spaces is large enough to overcome the reserve buoyancy in the remaining hull space.

Oceanos flooded through broken sea pipes, it was slow because the ingress was through fairly small diameter openings where the failed sea pipes penetrated the hull. Once it was far enough over and down for the water to get to the large air intake and exhaust openings the sinking rate increased.
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Unlike Oceanos, Estonia did turn belly up.


Here's a recap of what happened>

 
Vixen said:
This is exactly it, it is in the public interest to know what was the issue with the captain and why he wasn't in control of the ship, re speed and how quickly the emergency was dealt with. It is in the public interest because it was a civilian passenger ship with entire families aboard, including little children and elderly grandparents. In a public investigation people are entitled to have an answer as to what the heck was going on with the captain, who was known as being an old school Soviet-trained authoritarian type. It is not acceptable to say, you don't need to know.
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Who says we don't need to know?

The obvious answer is he was not very good and his crew weren't very well trained.
They were sailing too fast in a ship known to be in poor condition with a faulty bow door design that was prohibited for use on newer ships.
They reacted badly to the situation and were overwhelmed.

No need for submarines, assassins, nuclear secrets, the CIA or explosives.
 
Vixen said:
If you do a search there is a quote from an official as to uniform etiquette for bridge staff on duty.
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And what about bridge staff off duty (such as the Captain!)?
And what about non-bridge staff on the bridge?
Have you ever observed the workings of a ship's bridge? It doesn't sound like it. It sounds like uninformed speculation (no offense).
 
Vixen said:
Unlike Oceanos, Estonia did turn belly up.


Here's a recap of what happened>

Click to expand...


Why would it turn 'belly up'?

Every sinking is different.

Estonia flooded through the open bow visor, it listed and the machinery spaces flooded through deck and superstructure openings.

Why does it need to turn 'belly up'
That's something you invented. Very few ships sink 'belly up'
 
Vixen said:
That is what is claimed. Re the two Finnish armed forces guys, it's not that they 'don't lie', they don't bother putting a PR spin on things. It's cultural. Re the rally driver on British tv when asked where he had been replied, 'I was having a ◊◊◊◊'.
Click to expand...
That was Kimi Räikkönen, the F1 driver, not rally driver. However, several other Finnish F1 drivers have proved to be very proficient at 'putting a PR spin on things' because it is part of their job. So not really a good example to support your point.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
The report tells the interested public that the captain was in control of the ship but that he had a contract which obliged him to sail faster than was safe in less sheltered waters than was safe in order to have a chance of arriving when ordered.
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Captain Esa Mäkelä of Silja Europa, one of the two key ships nearby Estonia said the 'storm' was no different from any end of September storm on the route.
 
Vixen said:
Wait, I didn't say there was an 'assassin murdering the captain'.
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Yes you did. You said the man in red shot him.
Then he shot himself because he was Russian and that's what the SS did to their families.
 
Vixen said:
Captain Esa Mäkelä of Silja Europa, one of the two key ships nearby Estonia said the 'storm' was no different from any end of September storm on the route.
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Which means what?

He was sailing a different course at a speed more suitable for the conditions.

We know Estonia was sailing too fast and on a course that wasn't appropriate.

You know nothing of how ships behave in storms and how they should be handled.
 
Vixen said:
Captain Esa Mäkelä of Silja Europa, one of the two key ships nearby Estonia said the 'storm' was no different from any end of September storm on the route.
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So? The Estonia was not safely up to driving headlong into such heavy weather at full speed, no matter how "normal" those conditions were.
 
Just because a storm is 'normal' doesn't mean it's any less dangerous.

Lots of ships have sunk in 'normal' storms.
 
Andy_Ross said:
Why would it turn 'belly up'?

Every sinking is different.

Estonia flooded through the open bow visor, it listed and the machinery spaces flooded through deck and superstructure openings.

Why does it need to turn 'belly up'
That's something you invented. Very few ships sink 'belly up'
Click to expand...
Once the listing passes a certain point, say 50° (off the top of my head) then overturning becomes inevitable. To explain the Estonia, the JAIC had to hypothesize the windows on Deck 4 [iirc] must have smashed, causing ingress onto superstructure, high above the water level.
 
dorricc0 said:
That was Kimi Räikkönen, the F1 driver, not rally driver. However, several other Finnish F1 drivers have proved to be very proficient at 'putting a PR spin on things' because it is part of their job. So not really a good example to support your point.
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AIUI the early naval divers recruited to survey the scene, were doing it for a military report, so I can see no reason why they would not have described exactly what they saw. This is a survey, not a party political broadcast designed to 'reassure the public' or cover up systemic mishaps or practices.
 
Vixen said:
Once the listing passes a certain point, say 50° (off the top of my head) then overturning becomes inevitable. To explain the Estonia, the JAIC had to hypothesize the windows on Deck 4 [iirc] must have smashed, causing ingress onto superstructure, high above the water level.
Click to expand...
You just made that up.

You know nothing about it.
 
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