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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Now you are twisting my words.
I can't see how, but it doesn't matter. No amount of equivocation, backpedaling, and evasion on your part will make you a scientist or anything else. You simply can't demonstrate that you know what you're talking about. Therefore the claims you make that require us to agree that you do remain unconvincing.
 
That is not correct. When posters sneered, you ain't no scientist, I quite rightly corrected them. The fact they are not interested in the how and why tells me the aim in asking is not predicated in good faith.
But you aren't a scientist.
 
The context was the Captain of Estonia was reported to have been observed with a 'shot to the head' by some armed force personnel (as you know, various teams of naval divers went down to survey the scene to report back as to the feasibility of recovering the body and a general survey of the scene). A poster interpreted that to mean 'an assassin of the captain'. It was at that point, I opined it could just as easily have been suicide as that was a WWII thing, and citing the SS Wilhelm Gustloff eyewitnesses of this phenomenon.
You said in your previous post "IMV it could well be suicide in the face of near certain death, as being the captain, he couldn't leave the ship, as Andresson was very old school and trained at a Russian naval academy. In WWII, torpedoed German ships would have a flurry of SS officers shooting dead their wives and children before killing themself, rather than face drowning and fear."

You were trying to say he's old school and wouldn't leave the ship because its an honor thing... really you should've brought up the sinking of the Graf Spee. Why you'd insinuate that a commercial ship captain would shoot himself because thats something that actually quite rarely, a military commander did out of honor still is weird.
There is no record of the captain of the MV Wilhelm Gustloff (not SS) shooting himself. Actually the captain died before the incident. That is not the same thing as people shooting themselves out of fear of pain and anguish. I also can't find any sources that SS troops went around shooting civilians on the Gustloff. The Soviets claimed there was a contingent of SS onboard but that appears to be incorrect.

Also... are you conflating SS "steamship" with SS "SchutzStaffel"?!? . ETA: mea cupla, SS is for screw steamer. I am very decaffeinated since I quit caffeine.
 
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I'm probably giving more credit to the OP than is due, but in the interests of intellectual honesty...

The idea of a 'submarine with wheels / tracks' is not as ridiculous as it sounds, if we consider the existence of tracked ROVs. We use these in the oil&gas industry (and no doubt there are other uses) in, for example, performing pipeline inspections where the pipeline is not buried, or excavating/backfilling around subsea structures to rectify scour (where currents have washed away seabed soils, leaving parts of a structure exposed).

Now, these might leave tracks on the seabed, but how long those tracks would remain is highly dependent on soil conditions and currents.

Due to the high cost of these operations, every use of such a vehicle will be accompanied by a suite of video footage and detailed survey reports and technical reports, produced by the ROV contractor and issued to the client. Although these would not be in the public domain (and the 100+ crew involved are complicit in the cover-up!), the movements of the support vessel, from which the ROV is deployed, can be traced on the various marine traffic apps and port records. So anyone wanting to gather evidence could present at least something pertaining to such an event around the Estonia wreck site.

These complex ROV operations are typically reserved for deepwater applications. It is otherwise commercially preferable to deploy divers who typically can complete any given task (bar simple inspections or surveys) in much less time (and therefore cost).

In the case of this thread, we still haven't seen any evidence of 'submarine tracks' in the vicinity of the Estonia wreck (unless I've missed it in the many preceding pages of this thread and its predecessors), nor a coherent hypothesis of what that would mean and how it might cast doubt over the accepted verdict of how the ship sank.

Unless fourth-hand chitter chatter from a friend of the milkman of someone who once dived on some other shipwreck counts as evidence.
 

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Actually, as a former university teacher, I had quite a bit of say over who got to call themselves what.

However, your problem is that no one is obliged to agree with your attempts to define yourself, especially when people can identify very good reasons not to do so. Saying it's not illegal to call yourself something you're not is a cop-out. You can either display the proficiency consistent with your claims to expertise or you cannot.
She has been unable to display proficiency consistent with her claims to expertise.

Context:

Not really. I clarified the careless syntax re post-grad psychology, in the discussion about the Estonia eye-witness memory, virtually by return to say it referred to a post-grad professional accountancy qualification. Yet here we are years later with people still accusing moi-meme of trying to wilfully mislead.
Nope, you claimed that your accountancy qualification entitled you to call yourself a postgraduate psychologist:
I am not a psychologist as I am no longer a member of the British Psychological Society. What do you not understand about 'careless syntax' in a casual chat about eye-witness memory? Sheesh, you are really reaching now. Discussion over.
Not how that works. You were never a psychologist, even if you did subscribe to the BPS as a non-professional.
For your information, in the UK, 'psychologist' is not a protected designation. Anyone can call themself a 'psychologist'. However, I have never referred to myself as a 'psychologist'. You just don't get that some of us have values and authenticity, which includes not claiming unearnt or 'stolen' honours. I know that is a principle some cultures find hard to grasp. (Cue the bullying.)
The clear implication being that when you were a member, then you were a psychologist.
I have no control over your thoughts or emotions.
You've been caught in a lie.

You claimed you were a psychologist then later you stated you never claimed to be one. Even without the post wherein you imply you were one you have been directly claiming to be a psychologist.
You don't get to define me. I gave you the clarification even though I don't have to justify myself to you. I very clearly said, I was a psychologist in the CONTEXT of being a member of the BPS. Why don't you read the entire sentence and try and let the meaning of it sink in. Actually, I have done voluntary counselling work (after training) for a couple of charities so don't do wordplay with me, matey.
If you claim to be a scientist, and on that basis claim competent authority to assert scientific claims pertaining to your arguments, the precise nature of your science education and practice will be tested. It should be tested, because you made it a premise to the argument. "I know what I'm talking about," is a premise to every single statement you make. Your constant attempts to squelch that examination—"End of discussion," "Discussion over"—indicates that you really do understand how very uninformed you are on these subjects.
No I haven't 'presented' myself at all. I was browbeaten into 'explaining' how dare I be interested in a shipping accident and made to reveal my level of scientific training, which of course would never be enough for you, and then told I was 'bolstering' myself when I helpfully explained. The Estonia isn't just a mechanical accident, it also involves people.
You yourself were saying things that revealed your appalling level of scientific understanding. When challenged, you yourself attempted to defend your indefensible claims by presenting yourself as a scientist. That's what led to you yourself revealing your very own minimal level of scientific training.

Yes, the MS Estonia disaster involves people. Its victims should be respected. Their fate should not be used by clueless conspiracy theorists as an opportunity to present themselves as the smartest ones in the room.
That is not correct. When posters sneered, you ain't no scientist, I quite rightly corrected them. The fact they are not interested in the how and why tells me the aim in asking is not predicated in good faith.
You are not a scientist. You are unable to exhibit any degree of scientific proficiency when tested. Your "corrections" amount to various evasions and equivocations trying to establish that you might technically be considered a scientist.

You. Are. Not. A. Scientist.
You don't define me.
By writing what what you have written, you have defined yourself.

As a former university teacher, it is likely that @JayUtah has served as referee for research papers, on review panels for grant proposals, and on admissions committees that considered applications submitted by many "triple-niners" applicants. Although I cannot be certain of @JayUtah's experience, I am completely certain with respect to the experience of others who have participated in this thread.
 
According to Meister, as chairman of the commission, he could not speak publicly about his doubts because he did not have any at the time. He confirmed that he arrived at most of the claims in the book through a long research process that he began after leaving the post of chairman of the commission."
...and therefore without access to the information and tools he would have had as the commission chair. We were told that Meister's account had to be considered especially authoritative because of the information he was privy to.
 
You said in your previous post "IMV it could well be suicide in the face of near certain death, as being the captain, he couldn't leave the ship, as Andresson was very old school and trained at a Russian naval academy. In WWII, torpedoed German ships would have a flurry of SS officers shooting dead their wives and children before killing themself, rather than face drowning and fear."

You were trying to say he's old school and wouldn't leave the ship because its an honor thing... really you should've brought up the sinking of the Graf Spee. Why you'd insinuate that a commercial ship captain would shoot himself because thats something that actually quite rarely, a military commander did out of honor still is weird.
There is no record of the captain of the MV Wilhelm Gustloff (not SS) shooting himself. Actually the captain died before the incident. That is not the same thing as people shooting themselves out of fear of pain and anguish. I also can't find any sources that SS troops went around shooting civilians on the Gustloff. The Soviets claimed there was a contingent of SS onboard but that appears to be incorrect.

Also... are you conflating SS "steamship" with SS "SchutzStaffel"?!? .
Capt Heinz Schön didn't manage to shoot himself because whilst he was screaming he'd run out of bullets after shooting his wife and two children (she was begging, 'Put an end to this!') and demanding another gun, as he had run out of bullets for himself, he slid off into the sea. I think with military guys it's an honour thing, but quite a lot of those without guns were said to have slashed their wrists in fear of facing drowning. I was putting this forward as an equally likely scenario for Capt Andresson as anything more nefarious.
 
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Capt Heinz Schön didn't manage to shoot himself because whilst he was screaming he'd run out of bullets after shooting his wife and two children (she was begging, 'Put an end to this!') and demanding another gun, as he had run out of bullets for himself, he slid off into the sea. I think with military guys it's an honour thing, but quite a lot of those without guns were said to have slashed their wrists in fear of facing drowning. I was putting this forward as an equally likely scenario for Capt Andresson as anything more nefarious.
What?

For Heinz Schön, who passed away in 2013, that was a horrible thought. He was 18 years old at the time, aboard the Gustloff as an aspiring naval pay clerk. Although he was one of the very few survivors, and wrote a book about his experiences, he was always reticent to call the sinking of the Gustloff a war crime. It was ultimately carrying soldiers, sailing under enemy colors and lightly armed, making it a valid target for Soviet subs.

The captain of the ship died of a heart attack before they were even torpedoed.

ETA: is there even any evidence that there was a handgun available on the bridge of the Estonia? Was it common practice for Baltic car ferries to keep weapons aboard in the 1990's?
 
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What?

For Heinz Schön, who passed away in 2013, that was a horrible thought. He was 18 years old at the time, aboard the Gustloff as an aspiring naval pay clerk. Although he was one of the very few survivors, and wrote a book about his experiences, he was always reticent to call the sinking of the Gustloff a war crime. It was ultimately carrying soldiers, sailing under enemy colors and lightly armed, making it a valid target for Soviet subs.

The captain of the ship died of a heart attack before they were even torpedoed.

ETA: is there even any evidence that there was a handgun available on the bridge of the Estonia? Was it common practice for Baltic car ferries to keep weapons aboard in the 1990's?
Just checked: soz, it's Heinz Schön witnessing a senior officer in a brown party uniform and a swastika armband. My bad. Schön was on the aft deck superstructure.
 
Well, reading this article: https://www.ohtuleht.ee/7790/andi-meister-suudan-koiki-oma-vaiteid-toestada makes at least me wonder.

Google translate:

"Monday's Postimees accused Meister of concealing facts and versions known to him. Postimees asks why Meister did not speak earlier about Avo Piht's possible escape or misunderstandings during the diving work on the wreck.

According to Meister, as chairman of the commission, he could not speak publicly about his doubts because he did not have any at the time. He confirmed that he arrived at most of the claims in the book through a long research process that he began after leaving the post of chairman of the commission."


8 pages of the book, translated to Swedish is available here: https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?Fritext=SE/SPF/1/ES/22&page=60&postid=Arkis+F75BF2A2-6ED2-446E-BD64-7C8912CD27B2&tab=post#tab

It reads as a diary/stream of consciousness type writing, rather than a clear structured analysis of a situation.
And I think Meister was possibly motivated by national pride and trying to fend off blame being put on the Estonians, as the Estonia was their flagship, etcetera, etcetera.
 
Just checked: soz, it's Heinz Schön witnessing a senior officer in a brown party uniform and a swastika armband. My bad. Schön was on the aft deck superstructure.
How many mistakes can you make in one post? So Heinz Schön was the witness, and not the captain, and it wasn't the captain doing the shooting but someone else entirely.
Meanwhile, where was Schön? Was he on the aft deck, or on the superstructure? ("Aft deck superstructure" is a nonsense; if there's an aft deck, then there's no superstructure there, and vice versa.)
 
You do know you can copy text from a photo and then translate it using the 'Lens' feature (google or Apple, etc.). No, vice versa, Rabe is quoting Meister's book.
Still fourth-hand hearsay.
Do you have a actual source, such as JAIC or RockWellWater, as you assert, that describes the three bodies on the bridge and the “fact” of a bullet wound.
 
Sea of Death ~ the Baltic 1945, Claes Göran Wetterholm, The History Pres, 2021. See p. 115 re the Wilhelm Gustloff and Captain Heinz Schön*. An excellent book worth reading.

*Re screaming for a gun to shoot his wife and kids.
No. Your claim, support it.
Cite actual evidence for this occurring. Your recollection of “something I read” tends to be less than accurate.
 

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