Electric universe theories here.

[Sol88]

Would tusenfem be qualified to fill you in?

Jd116?

 

[jonesdave116]

Would tusenfem be qualified to fill you in?

Jd116?

Yes. And he keeps telling you that you haven't got a clue! Not me. And I would have thought Alfven would be enough for the unqualified mythologists of EU. Surely he was never wrong!

The correlation of the magnetic storms and aurorae with the solar activity indicates that they are due to some agent emitted from the sun. As this agent causes magnetic and electric disturbances on the earth, it probably consists of charged particles. But, as Schuster has shown, the emission of a sufficient amount of particles, all having the same sign, is impossible because it would give rise to an enormous space charge. This difficulty is avoided if the emitted agent is assumed to consist of the equal amount of positive and negative particles.
Consequently the general nature of the current system during the main phase of a magnetic storm must be somewhat as follows. The stream approaching the earth contains positive and negative charge in equal amounts so that the electric current is zero. Through the action of the magnetic field of the earth the paths of the positives and of the negatives become differentiated, but until the particles reach the forbidden region, the space charge is always zero because the positives and negatives neutralize each other.

Try to understand it. In the extremely unlikely event that you actually get it, then try explaining it to the doofus Scott.

 

[jonesdave116]

and on Saturn

Magnetic field characters of returning flux tubes in Saturn's magnetosphere

The return current!

Lol! What the hell has that got to do with the solar wind being quasi-neutral? This is nothing to do with the solar wind. Learn to read. The particles are originally neutrals coming from Enceladus!

 

[W.D.Clinger]

Got a new term for you Evershed flows and counter Evershed flows

So just to make the discussion even muddier, you come up with something you found on the web, which deals with flows on the surface of the Sun, either away from a penumbra or in fewer cases towards the penumbra.

We will ignore this, thank you very much.

Before tusenfem said we would ignore this paper, I read its abstract and introduction. I thought it was amusing that Sol88, whose muddy ramblings often seem to deny the relevance (and perhaps even the existence) of magnetic fields, would cite a paper whose first sentence is

Sunspots are a manifestation of solar magnetism.​

On the other hand, I suspect I have no more idea of what Sol88 is trying to say than Sol88 does.

 

[jonesdave116]

Before tusenfem said we would ignore this paper, I read its abstract and introduction. I thought it was amusing that Sol88, whose muddy ramblings often seem to deny the relevance (and perhaps even the existence) of magnetic fields, would cite a paper whose first sentence is

Sunspots are a manifestation of solar magnetism.​

On the other hand, I suspect I have no more idea of what Sol88 is trying to say than Sol88 does.

Yes, I read a related paper. What it has got to do with the price of fish is anyone's guess. I do note that these flows have been mapped spectroscopically using Fe I lines! Neutral iron, in other words. If the Fe, with an ionisation energy of ~ 7eV is neutral, then we can be pretty damned sure that the H (13.6 eV) and He (24.6 eV) are also.

 

[catsmate]

Can't read, can you? I just showed you in the papers you quoted where the current sheets are overall charge neutral. Get over the fact that you haven't got a clue what you are talking about. And neither does Scott.

You haven't got a clue what you are saying. Just saying.

It's another Gish Gallop to cover his abject ignorance of real science.

 

[tusenfem]

and on Saturn

Magnetic field characters of returning flux tubes in Saturn's magnetosphere

The return current!

This has absolutely nothing to do with currents, it is basically interchange of "full" and "empty" tubes.

 

[tusenfem]

Not just found on the surface of the sun are they now!

This it the description given by Solanki:

The best known of these is the Evershed effect, which describes a horizontal outflow in the photospheric layers of penumbrae. In the chromosphere and transition region it reverses into an inflow, and is also seen as a downflow above umbrae.

So there is an upflow in the umbra, which is diverted to horizontal outflow in the penumbra in the photosphere, and reverses in the chromosphere to an inflow towards the umbra and then to transitions to a downflow.

Photosphere and chromosphere can be calles the Sun's surface.

Seen your name pop up.

Must be your lucky day.

 

[tusenfem]

Or all those peer reviewed jobs just having a lend of me?

They are havind a "lend" of you?

 

[tusenfem]

Tusenfem,

Let’s talk semantics,

Sure, if you know what that means.

What are we, here in this thread, going to call these structures?

Nested flux tubes? Evershed flows and counter flows? Birkeland current? Force field aligned currents? Power cables for “Magnetic reconnecting” of ion and electrons flows?

Well, you can call them unicorns, for all I care.
I am going to call them a "flux tube" or an "Evershed flow" or a "Birkeland current".
I don't really know what "force field aligned currents" are, and "power cables" is electronics and that is another department at my institute.
So, there is no one-term to call this collection, they have their own names because of a reason.

Need something snappy.

Nope, we need (plasma) physically correct names, otherwise we get non-sensical discussions, as is clear from this whole thread.

You’ve dealt with them, afaik, in the MMS and Rosetta missions.

I have dealt with lots of stuff.

Seem pretty common, now, in peer reviewed mainstream papers.

But the names seem all over the shop??

Nope, YOUR insistence that everything is the same, when it is clearly not the case, makes it look TO YOU that the names are "all over the shop".

Sheets are just flat version of the tubes. A geometry thing but still nested electrons and ions going,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

No, a sheet is a sheet and a tube is a tube, they are topologically different. NOT EVERYTHING IS THE SAME.

Hard too “see em” until you fly thru one with the correct instrumention.

If you keep your eyes closed it is difficult to see anything. If you are living in Rotterdam it is difficult to see a temple in Bangkok.

Ulysses was awhile back now.

Wow, we agree on something.

One wonders if these nested power cables going out and coming in at the poles of the Sun may play a part in the big curcuit?

There are NO CABLES in space, and now they are supposed to be nested too?
As this "big circuit" driving the Sun is an EU idea, and YOU are (one of the last) proponents, it is onto YOU to show that it works somehow.

 

[tusenfem]

In a collisionless plasma? I’ll give you they are “lossy” but they don’t seem to dissipate easily.

Why should the not be dissipation in a collisionless plasma?
What does "lossy" mean?
What is dissipation?

In fact some are quite long.

many things are long

AGN Jets are big lossy coaxial cables. Apparently the current can also return nested inside the cables.

Wow can you mix up more stuff? now the current returns nested in non-existing cables in space?

Whoda thunkit?

Yes, who would, such word salat is really mind boggling

Apparently, this is in Scotts force free electric current model.

So now it is a "force free electric current", is that the same as a "force field aligned current" as in another post of yours? (Just asking for a friend)

Also seems the ELECTRONS are doing the heavy lifting. Problem is you’ve been looking at the ion/s (MHD).

Sol88, your love-affair with MHD is nice, but if you would look at actual papers then you would see that there is only a subset which is MHD, lots of papers just look at the data.

Missed the memo?

What memo?

So....ummmm...electrons and ions going both ways in a plasma cable?

Stop thinking as an electrician, this is plasma physics. There are no cables.

When sail thru the turbulent plasma full of force free electric currents (solar wind) and you sample it on the whole.

And then what?

Quasi neutral.

yep

But the dissipation is still pretty minimal in these plasma power cables/wires or whatever helps you visualise bloody big extension cords in space.

Well I guess you will have to show us.

 

[Ziggurat]

But the dissipation is still pretty minimal in these plasma power cables/wires or whatever helps you visualise bloody big extension cords in space.

I have envisioned it.

 

[Sol88]

For what, what is that purported "current" returning from? Where is Saturn receiving "current" from to have returned to it?

You seem confused and fixated on "current". It's power, energy over time, that is required to power, well, anything. Even the EU.

Fixated on the return part.

And their location in relation to the observed ion currents.

 

[Sol88]

This has absolutely nothing to do with currents, it is basically interchange of "full" and "empty" tubes.

Tubes of what?

 

[jonesdave116]

Tubes of what?

Magnetic flux. That is why they are called 'magnetic flux tubes'. Funny that, eh? So, as I understand it they can include plasma or not. As far as I can remember from the Enceladus paper, the neutrals from the moon are ionised, adding to the magnetospheric plasma, and if that carried on forever, you would have a very dense magnetosphere. So, again as I understand it, the plasma is carried off into the tail by flux tubes, which then get rid of the plasma to the solar wind via reconnection, which returns the depleted tubes to the inner magnetosphere.
But, hey, what do I know? I merely read the paper and a couple of others!

 

[Sol88]

Sure, if you know what that means.



Well, you can call them unicorns, for all I care.
I am going to call them a "flux tube" or an "Evershed flow" or a "Birkeland current".
I don't really know what "force field aligned currents" are, and "power cables" is electronics and that is another department at my institute.
So, there is no one-term to call this collection, they have their own names because of a reason.



Nope, we need (plasma) physically correct names, otherwise we get non-sensical discussions, as is clear from this whole thread.



I have dealt with lots of stuff.



Nope, YOUR insistence that everything is the same, when it is clearly not the case, makes it look TO YOU that the names are "all over the shop".



No, a sheet is a sheet and a tube is a tube, they are topologically different. NOT EVERYTHING IS THE SAME.



If you keep your eyes closed it is difficult to see anything. If you are living in Rotterdam it is difficult to see a temple in Bangkok.



Wow, we agree on something.



There are NO CABLES in space, and now they are supposed to be nested too?
As this "big circuit" driving the Sun is an EU idea, and YOU are (one of the last) proponents, it is onto YOU to show that it works somehow.

Another fact that does not come into both presented pictures in Fig. 3 is that the solar wind IMF does not have a steady direction.

The well known Parker spiral [Parker, 1958] of the IMF is only obtained after averaging over relatively long time periods [see e.g. Ness and Wilcox, 1964; Borovsky, 2010], and even in a perfect spiral there will be sectors where x and x ,i.e.pointing Sunward or anti-sunward.

This means that magnetic field of different directions will be transported towards the comet, and will result into so-called “nested draping.”

The result is that layers of magnetic field of different directions will be wrapping around the nucleus as an onion. Very nice examples are shown in Fig. 4AA from Riedler et al. [1986] and Fig. 4BB from Raeder et al. [1987], who studied the VEGA 1 flyby on 6 March and the Giotto flyby of comet 1P/Halley on 13 and 14 March 1986, respectively.


Looking at the layering of the magnetic field directions for ingress and egress, Raeder et al. [1987] were able to identify and connect layers with different polarity.

This means that the induced magnetosphere around a comet consists of a complex geometry of magnetic fields, as if a large amount of different kinds of curtains have been draped around the nucleus. One of the consequences of these rotations of the magnetic field is that there will be current sheets generated in the coma.

M.Volwerk

Not just the sun but at comets too..

What did you end up calling them again? Unicorns...


Is the averaged and turbulent IMF a unicorn?

 

[jonesdave116]

M.Volwerk

What did you end up calling them again? Unicorns...


Is the eversged and turbulent IMF a unicorn?

Jeez, talk about comparing apples with pears!

 

[Sol88]

Magnetic flux. That is why they are called 'magnetic flux tubes'. Funny that, eh? So, as I understand it they can include plasma or not. As far as I can remember from the Enceladus paper, the neutrals from the moon are ionised, adding to the magnetospheric plasma, and if that carried on forever, you would have a very dense magnetosphere. So, again as I understand it, the plasma is carried off into the tail by flux tubes, which then get rid of the plasma to the solar wind via reconnection, which returns the depleted tubes to the inner magnetosphere.
But, hey, what do I know? I merely read the paper and a couple of others!

Hope you picked that up tusenfem, flux tubes are full of magnetic flux unless of course they are empty flux that contain no magnetic flux.

But they do contain PLASMA. Not quasi neutral either.

 

[Sol88]

Jeez, talk about comparing apples with pears!

Flux tubes at comets too jd116, can’t believe can you.

All a bit much.


Can contain plasma....

You crack me up, Along with ol super duper space plasma physicist.

 

[Sol88]

We can now call plasma power cables their correct terminology


Birkeland Currents in honour of the bloke.

Seems the bit we are now adding is the acknowledgment by the mainstream they contain nested current of different polarity.

Just like earths plasmasphere a comets the sun and the plasmoids at galactic centres.

Fed by by power cables, Birkeland currents.