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Destiny and Free will

Emre_1974tr said:
No, leave the words of those people. Just look at what the Quran says.

And if you look at the words of Muslim clerics, ninety-nine percent of them say to stay away from the false Bible.

As for the verses you gave, one of them is talking about the time of Prophet Jesus, when the true Torah was widespread (By the way, Jesus' real name is Joshua and he is mentioned in your false Torah. Jesus is the nephew of Moses and Aaron and he lived much earlier than you think).

In the other verses you gave, it talks about Christians and Jews staying away from their books. As I said, your elites are hiding the true books and have delivered very few pages of them to you. On the other hand, they have deceived you by passing off man-made hadith books like Matthew, Mark, Luke and John as Injeel. Like the books of Enoch or the books of Barnabas, these are all man-written and non-religious books.

So the holy books have not changed. You don't have holy books in your hands now. This is what is explained in detail in the verses. In the past, only a few people had them. Now this elite has also diminished. Many verses also tell us how the Jews wrote such fabricated books.

By the way, if God wanted to, He could have delivered the preserved religious books to everyone, to every person in every part of the world, at every stage of history. But this was not what people deserved, so God's divine plan was written in such a way that people were separated from the books. Just as some prophets were martyred by unbelievers, this is the same situation. God could have protected His prophets from being killed if He wanted to, but He didn't, because the divine plan, destiny, was written as it was meant to be. The perfect divine plan for us to face ourselves, for us to get what we deserve, is working.
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Oh for crying out loud!

If you are actually correct, then your god has got to be the most disgusting POS in all of human history.

After all, the very people that your god created have been killed in abused in any number of ways over many thousands of years because your god says that the people he created actually do deserve to be killed and abused in order to complete some special plan that is quite well known to your god, but that is quite unknown to us mere humans.

With a belief like this, then it is no wonder that so few people actually believe in such incredibly stupid nonsense.
 
Well God's Floor! The angels & jinns are just meat beings after all! They can telepath & travel to other universes & do good and bad, but they aren't supernatural AT ALL! And poor old Satan's just an adjective!

So says your version of moslemism. All monotheistic cults say the same. But viewed from outside, it's still just multi-godism.

And no wonder. The problems with monotheism, especially the good & evil conundrum, are too much for normal human credulity. A better explanation (at least for purposes of superstition) is to invent more and more deities, some big, some little, and play at worshipping/placating/avoiding them. Fun!

We need jollier gods in our lives, don't you think?
 
Emre_1974tr said:
Quran 6:91 They did not value God as He deserves to be valued, for they said, "God has never sent down anything to any human being." Say, "Who then has sent down the book which Moses had come with, a light and guidance for the people? You treat it just as scrolls of paper; you show some of it and conceal much, though you were taught what neither you nor your fathers knew." Say, "God has." Then leave them playing in their folly.
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Where does it say in this verse anything about the Gospels as being corrupt?
Also, where in the Quran is the one unequivical statement that says the text in the Gospels is corrupt or people misinterpreting the text?
 
sackett said:
Well God's Floor! The angels & jinns are just meat beings after all! They can telepath & travel to other universes & do good and bad, but they aren't supernatural AT ALL! And poor old Satan's just an adjective!
?
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No.

Things like telepathy and inter-universe travel are within the laws of physics. With science and technology, humans can also do these things. There is nothing supernatural about them. Everything that is in accordance with the laws of physics is easily accomplished by an advanced civilization and there is nothing Godlike about it.

By the way, all these things I have said are clearly written in the verses.

There is no problem of evil. I have shown this also with verses:

https://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php?topic=3854.0
 
DetectedMotion said:
So you don't get excited about it. And yes the bible clearly states it.
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The point of the quote was not to discuss whether Jesus is a separate God or not. It was to point out that if you are going to be a believer then you had better choose which text you follow carefully.

According to the Quran, biblical adherents are going to hell. But the bible says that Quran adherents will go to hell (since it denies that Jesus Christ is the messiah).
 
psionl0 said:
The point of the quote was not to discuss whether Jesus is a separate God or not. It was to point out that if you are going to be a believer then you had better choose which text you follow carefully.

According to the Quran, biblical adherents are going to hell. But the bible says that Quran adherents will go to hell (since it denies that Jesus Christ is the messiah).
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It's the bible that I adhere to because the only way to the Father is through the son Jesus Christ. The Quran does not speak of the text in the Gospels being altered or corrupted from the original writtings;Which is the question I now want Emre to answer, since he claims that the bible I use now is the "wrong" one and therefore the Gospels are not correct.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
By the way, if God wanted to, He could have delivered the preserved religious books to everyone, to every person in every part of the world, at every stage of history. But this was not what people deserved…
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Why did your god create such undeserving people? Was he having a bad day? A ‘Friday afternoon job’?
 
DetectedMotion said:
It's the bible that I adhere to because the only way to the Father is through the son Jesus Christ. The Quran does not speak of the text in the Gospels being altered or corrupted from the original writtings;Which is the question I now want Emre to answer, since he claims that the bible I use now is the "wrong" one and therefore the Gospels are not correct.
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I haven't read the Quran but if it is saying that Jesus is just a prophet and not the messiah (as Emre_1974tr says) then it is at odds with the Gospels.
 
DetectedMotion said:
So explain to me in Genesis1:1 ;Who's spirit was hovering over the waters? Wouldn't that be God's Holy Spirit? That is what it says; Are you denying this?
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It’s fiction. You might as well be asking who killed the chauffeur in The Big Sleep.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
No.

Things like telepathy and inter-universe travel are within the laws of physics. With science and technology, humans can also do these things. There is nothing supernatural about them. Everything that is in accordance with the laws of physics is easily accomplished by an advanced civilization and there is nothing Godlike about it.

By the way, all these things I have said are clearly written in the verses.

There is no problem of evil. I have shown this also with verses:

https://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php?topic=3854.0
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Jesus cow tipping Christ!

This particular claim has got to be about the second most incredibly wrong claim that has ever been made on the Forum.

In my opinion, the first most incredibly wrong claim still goes to Paul Bethke and his horribly failed, and yet entirely unsurprising, "blinding list" exploits.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
Quran 6:91 They did not value God as He deserves to be valued, for they said, "God has never sent down anything to any human being." Say, "Who then has sent down the book which Moses had come with, a light and guidance for the people? You treat it just as scrolls of paper; you show some of it and conceal much, though you were taught what neither you nor your fathers knew." Say, "God has." Then leave them playing in their folly.

Matthew Mark or Yuhanna always wrote hadith books.


God's word hasn't changed. Your priests have adopted fake books. They gave you the hadith books as the Bible and deceived you.
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That does not appear to be a valid interpretation of what the Quran is saying here.
In the light of the foregoing discussion and commentary, it is quite evident that this statement comes from the Jews. Since the Prophet (peace be on him) had asserted that he was a Prophet and that a Book had been revealed to him, the unbelieving Quraysh and other polytheists of Arabia naturally used to approach the Jews and the Christians – who believed in the Prophets and in the Scriptures – and tried to solicit a candid answer from them as to whether God’s words had indeed been revealed to Muhammad (peace be on him). Whatever answer they gave was then disseminated on all sides by the active opponents of the Prophet (peace be on him) in order to create revulsion against Islam. This is the reason for mentioning, and then refuting, this statement by the Jews, which had been used by the opposition as an argument against Islam.
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https://myislam.org/surah-al-anam/ayat-91/#:~:text=(6:91) They did,revealed anything to any man.

No part of that verse, or the commentary, can legitimately be interpreted as a claim that the Bible is false. In fact, it is the opposite: this is the Quran saying the Bible did indeed come from god.
 
psionl0 said:
I haven't read the Quran but if it is saying that Jesus is just a prophet and not the messiah (as Emre_1974tr says) then it is at odds with the Gospels.
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The Quran is quite unequivocal in saying Jesus was a prophet and not the messiah. That is, in fact, the central tenet of Islam: that Mohammed was given the true message of god by the Angel Gabriel, because the previous messages- the Torah and the Bible- had become corrupted and distorted.

https://www.learnreligions.com/what-does-the-quran-say-about-jesus-2003787

This quote from the above link is also pertinent, in the light of Emre's claims that the Bible is rejected by most Muslim scholars as false:

Behold! the angels said, 'Oh Mary! God gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him. His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter, and in (the company of) those nearest to God. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. He shall be (in the company) of the righteous... And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel'" (3:45-48).
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Cosmic Yak said:
The Quran is quite unequivocal in saying Jesus was a prophet and not the messiah. That is, in fact, the central tenet of Islam: that Mohammed was given the true message of god by the Angel Gabriel, because the previous messages- the Torah and the Bible- had become corrupted and distorted.
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In the Quran SURAH AL-IMRAN AYAT 3 (3:3)" He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.Before, as guidance for the people. And he revealed the Quran. Indeed, those who disbelieve in the verses of Allah will have a severe punishment and Allah is Exalted in Might, the owner of Retribution".

So the Quran tells here that Allah first reveals the Torah and the Bible as a guidance and then after that the Quran.
The Quran goes further to say that those who disbelief the verses of Allah, which includes the Torah and the Bible, are to be punished by Allah.
Now this is where Emre argues the Bible has been corrupted over time, but this argument has no ground to stand on because reading in:
Sarat Al-Kahf(18) Verse 27: Recite what has been revealed to you from the book of your Lord. None can change his words, nor can you find any refuge besides Him.
This is the word of Allah and NONE can change the word of Allah according to this verse; This includes the Torah and the Gospel.
So if None can change the words of Allah, this means the Bible and the Torah can not be corrupted.
 
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psionl0 said:
I find it hard to get excited about whether there are 3 manifestations of the one God or 3 different Gods. You will find arguments for both in the bible.
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That's what paganism is. All polytheistic religions, from Hinduism to New Age religion, worship many gods as a reflection or manifestation of the one God. Christianity has the same pagan doctrine. In fact, it is in itself a pantheistic philosophy.

As it is stated in the Holy Qur'an, the elite hid the Torah and the Gospel, they only shared some of its pages with humanity. So we don't have the Injeel or the Torah now.

And unfortunately, the people had to adopt the hadith books like Barnabas, Enoch, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, which were written by human beings, that is to say fake books, as Gospels. There are many more fake Gospels. But the pagan religious leaders adopted four of them and deceived people with these books. Whatever Bukhari or Tırmizi books are, these are the same. They are hadith books. Bible is not Torah or Injeel.

But some Christians, in spite of these pagan false books, realized that the belief in the trinity was a heresy and fought against this heresy. Because with the revelation inherent in their genes, man is inclined towards the truth. As long as he keeps his heart pure.

https://www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/pagan-roots-of-the-trinity-doctrine-ed-torrence-2002
 
Emre_1974tr said:
As it is stated in the Holy Qur'an, the elite hid the Torah and the Gospel, they only shared some of its pages with humanity. So we don't have the Injeel or the Torah now.
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According to the Quran, the Torah and the Injeel are to be used as guidance First and then the Quran. Allah said so, Emre.
But now you say Allah and the Quran is wrong by coming up with a convienient lie about how some "Elites" hid these 2 books from humanity.
What does Allah mean in Surah verse7:157 when he says the Christians still had the Gospel in the 7th Century? Long after the Apostle Paul and the Council of Nicea?
 
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Emre_1974tr said:
That's what paganism is. All polytheistic religions, from Hinduism to New Age religion, worship many gods as a reflection or manifestation of the one God. Christianity has the same pagan doctrine. In fact, it is in itself a pantheistic philosophy.

As it is stated in the Holy Qur'an, the elite hid the Torah and the Gospel, they only shared some of its pages with humanity. So we don't have the Injeel or the Torah now.

And unfortunately, the people had to adopt the hadith books like Barnabas, Enoch, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, which were written by human beings, that is to say fake books, as Gospels. There are many more fake Gospels. But the pagan religious leaders adopted four of them and deceived people with these books. Whatever Bukhari or Tırmizi books are, these are the same. They are hadith books. Bible is not Torah or Injeel.

But some Christians, in spite of these pagan false books, realized that the belief in the trinity was a heresy and fought against this heresy. Because with the revelation inherent in their genes, man is inclined towards the truth. As long as he keeps his heart pure.

https://www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/pagan-roots-of-the-trinity-doctrine-ed-torrence-2002
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Yes, as you can see, we don't have Injeel and Torah.

The Quran clearly tells the truth.

It also tells us how the false Gospels were written and how they are traps to mislead.

By the way, let me remind you again that Jesus was Joshua and he lived in a much older age than you think.

I showed this in my Turkish article:

http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com/2018/03/isa-peygamber-musa-ve-harun.html


I said that Jesus/Joshua is the nephew of Moses and he lived in much older times than your think. And he was born in Ancient Egypt..

The pharaohons had a culture of cross-hands and feet. (and cutting them with X shape/crosswise).

The stories of Osiris and Horus were inspired by the life of Jesus. Because Jesus lived in an age before.

Unfortunately, people always do what they do. They paganized the life story of the Prophet. Christianity was also created based on this story after centuries.
 
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If a god truly existed and valued free will, the last thing it would do is send prophets and dictates to the species it wants to evaluate.
After all, Muslims do not eat pork because of free will, but because they fear reprisals in the afterlife.
They do not follow Ramadan because of free will, but because of the same fear.

So, assuming your book of rules is dictated by something other than a man (which I doubt) that being is clearly not a god valuing free will but rather one that demands unquestioning obedience.
 
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