Destiny and Free will

[Leumas]

However, just because we do not know *how* it works does not mean at any point supernatural intervention is needed. And imo only a supernatural intervention can stop us having free will.

I agree... and there are no gods or woowoo... you are right!!!

We have the ability to choose, even if we do not know how we choose.

We know how we choose... as a result of neuronal firings in our brains... and those are the result of DNA and environmental factors.

Neither of which is a choice.

One's environment in any instance X is the net sum of the trajectory of paths taken as a result of the effects of numerous decisions and circumstances in numerous instances prior to the instance X since one's conception.

Where and when and to whom and how one is born is a random environmental starting point for a trajectory path... none of it is chosen.

The fact that free will exists in no point ensures the world is fair.

The universe does not care a gnat's ass about any humans... you are right...

I'd even turn it around. The unfairness of the world in general would indicate free will exists.

You are wrong here... the universe not caring about rocks or volcanoes does not give them free will... no???

A god that pre-determines everything and is powerful enough to create a universe would have things running better.

There are no gods... I agree 100%


I suggest you watch this video... and ponder over it.

Free will is a delusion like the other numerous delusions we have as part of our brain function that make us able to function in this reality... e.g. the delusion that one is not hurtling through space at 67,000 MPH while spinning at 1000 MPH.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

I agree... and there are no gods or woowoo... you are right!!!





We know how we choose... as a result of neuronal firings in our brains... and those are the result of DNA and environmental factors.

Neither of which is a choice.

One's environment in any instance X is the net sum of the trajectory of paths taken as a result of the effects of numerous decisions and circumstances in numerous instances prior to the instance X since one's conception.

Where and when and to whom and how one is born is a random environmental starting point for a trajectory path... none of it is chosen.





The universe does not care a gnat's ass about any humans... you are right...





You are wrong here... the universe not caring about rocks or volcanoes does not give them free will... no???





There are no gods... I agree 100%


I suggest you watch this video... and ponder over it.

Free will is a delusion like the other numerous delusions we have as part of our brain function that make us able to function in this reality... e.g. the delusion that one is not hurtling through space at 67,000 MPH while spinning at 1000 MPH.

I suppose that is a philosophical standpoint.

But given the uncertainty inherent in physics philosophically I'd be inclined to disagree.

Scientifically we know nowhere near enough about the processes in the brain to be sure one way or the other.

 

[Myriad]

There is no evidence that the brain functions via anything besides physical causality, which is some combination of deterministic and possibly random factors. If there are random factors, that makes my decisions less predictable, but isn't a you-have-free-will card. By definition, random factors are outside my or anyone's control. So overall, my brain, my material self, doesn't have free will.

My mind, my subjective experience, results entirely from the functioning of my brain.

The subjective self I experience has free will.

This is not a contradiction. Why is it not a contradiction? For the same reason that this is not a contradiction:

- It is not possible to telekinetically choke people to death.
- Darth Vader can telekinetically choke people to death.

Darth Vader is a fictional construct, and so can do fictional things. Likewise, "my subjective self" can do things like "feel pain" and "expect" things to happen and "make decisions." (Those things in quotes are all fictional, in the sense that they exist only in the model worlds that brains construct. Outside of those fictions, nothing in nature, including the brains themselves, makes a decision.)

Does that mean free will is an illusion? Not really, not in the sense that's usually meant by the word illusion. Good luck persuading someone with second-degree burns that pain is an illusion. Free will is no more (but no less) illusory than that. Free will is the subjective experience of the neural process of responding to the world by integrating sensory input, emotional associations, memories, and narrative modeling of causality. You can either do that (thus experincing "making decisions" using your "free will") or not, and you're better off if you do, which is why your brain can do it in the first place.

 

[Scorpion]

There is no evidence that the brain functions via anything besides physical causality, which is some combination of deterministic and possibly random factors. If there are random factors, that makes my decisions less predictable, but isn't a you-have-free-will card. By definition, random factors are outside my or anyone's control. So overall, my brain, my material self, doesn't have free will.

My mind, my subjective experience, results entirely from the functioning of my brain.

Have you ever tried meditation? I have and you can reach a heightened state of awareness. There is also the matter that I have definitely experienced telepathy. That and the fact that i fought my way off heavy medication in the 1970s by a mind over matter struggle that taught me thought is free and not determined by chemicals. I have discussed these things at length on my thread, and don't wish to attempt to justify my beliefs again on this thread.

Lets just say my experience of consciousness is different from yours.

 

[Leumas]

There is no evidence that the brain functions via anything besides physical causality, which is some combination of deterministic and possibly random factors. If there are random factors, that makes my decisions less predictable, but isn't a you-have-free-will card. By definition, random factors are outside my or anyone's control. So overall, my brain, my material self, doesn't have free will.

My mind, my subjective experience, results entirely from the functioning of my brain.

The subjective self I experience has free will.

This is not a contradiction. Why is it not a contradiction? For the same reason that this is not a contradiction:

- It is not possible to telekinetically choke people to death.
- Darth Vader can telekinetically choke people to death.

Darth Vader is a fictional construct, and so can do fictional things. Likewise, "my subjective self" can do things like "feel pain" and "expect" things to happen and "make decisions." (Those things in quotes are all fictional, in the sense that they exist only in the model worlds that brains construct. Outside of those fictions, nothing in nature, including the brains themselves, makes a decision.)

Does that mean free will is an illusion? Not really, not in the sense that's usually meant by the word illusion. Good luck persuading someone with second-degree burns that pain is an illusion. Free will is no more (but no less) illusory than that. Free will is the subjective experience of the neural process of responding to the world by integrating sensory input, emotional associations, memories, and narrative modeling of causality. You can either do that (thus experincing "making decisions" using your "free will") or not, and you're better off if you do, which is why your brain can do it in the first place.

WOW... I agree with all the above.... must go have a health checkup now.

Except for the highlighted bit.... which certainly will save me the trip and expense.

Pain is an abnormal state of the brain as result of abnormal body conditions... so the illusion of free will is not at all analogous.

The illusion of free will in the brain is more akin to this visual illusion

​

In the above image notice the squares A and B....

They are exactly the same color... but try as much as you can you cannot see it.

You can prove it for yourself that they are indeed the same color EXACTLY the same color (RGB = 111,111,111) by loading the image in Paint Shop or similar software and use the color-picker tool and pick the color of the tiles and compare the RGB values... also compare the RGB values of the other tiles....

It is the most amazing illusion ever... in other illusions if you squint or twiddle your head or defocus the eyes or something you might be able to overcome the illusion.... in this one there is no way at all to shirk off the illusion.

The Free will illusion is analogous to this illusion ... not at all to pain.

 

[Thermal]

There is no evidence that the brain functions via anything besides physical causality, which is some combination of deterministic and possibly random factors. If there are random factors, that makes my decisions less predictable, but isn't a you-have-free-will card. By definition, random factors are outside my or anyone's control. So overall, my brain, my material self, doesn't have free will.

My mind, my subjective experience, results entirely from the functioning of my brain.

The subjective self I experience has free will.

This is not a contradiction. Why is it not a contradiction? For the same reason that this is not a contradiction:

- It is not possible to telekinetically choke people to death.
- Darth Vader can telekinetically choke people to death.

Darth Vader is a fictional construct, and so can do fictional things. Likewise, "my subjective self" can do things like "feel pain" and "expect" things to happen and "make decisions." (Those things in quotes are all fictional, in the sense that they exist only in the model worlds that brains construct. Outside of those fictions, nothing in nature, including the brains themselves, makes a decision.)

Does that mean free will is an illusion? Not really, not in the sense that's usually meant by the word illusion. Good luck persuading someone with second-degree burns that pain is an illusion. Free will is no more (but no less) illusory than that. Free will is the subjective experience of the neural process of responding to the world by integrating sensory input, emotional associations, memories, and narrative modeling of causality. You can either do that (thus experincing "making decisions" using your "free will") or not, and you're better off if you do, which is why your brain can do it in the first place.

I've heard this argument before, and still don't get it. It borders on the mystical.

If we say our subjective self and pain and all is an "illusion", we are going full tilt Buddhist. Our sense of self is the only "real" thing we can be aware of. All the consequently illusory sensory inputs of data and evidence would fall under the same illusory umbrella, no?

 

[Leumas]

I suppose that is a philosophical standpoint.

But given the uncertainty inherent in physics philosophically I'd be inclined to disagree.

Scientifically we know nowhere near enough about the processes in the brain to be sure one way or the other.

NSFW - Read at your own risk

I suppose that is a philosophical standpoint.

Well ... it is one based upon science that you know well and agree with.

But given the uncertainty inherent in physics philosophically I'd be inclined to disagree.

But you agreed that the brain is the source of 100% of decision making??

Do you think the brain has some possible magic process in it that might not make it susceptible to its DNA and the sum total of the environmental interaction it had??

Scientifically we know nowhere near enough about the processes in the brain to be sure one way or the other.

To be sure of what ....

We are sure the brain is physical and its neuronal firings are physical and they are the result of the DNA that made all the lipids and proteins in it and the chemicals it has acquired from the blood which has acquired them from the environment.

What we are not sure about is how we store the memory that we use as a feedback mechanism (see image below) to influence the firing process in addition to the chemicals.

But those are the sum total of all the previous firings due to previous firings and chemicals.

At every instant the brain is at a state that has been set by previous states and current environmental factors (see image below)

None of this is freely willed by the definition of this term.

Where one is born ... at what era of time... to whom ... and how... is a random set of environmental factors that start a trajectory jump off point that is not in anyway under the control of the person being born

And from that point onwards each neuronal firing is the result of a feedback mechanism that depends on the environment at the moment of firing as well as the state of the brain which is the result of the previous states.

A path of which not a single point is freely willed.

Click on the image to view it in a better resolution
[imgw=500]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_5128262dae1baa2a1a.jpg[/imgw]​

 

[Thermal]

WOW... I agree with all the above.... must go have a health checkup now.

Except for the highlighted bit.... which certainly will save me the trip and expense.

Pain is an abnormal state of the brain as result of abnormal body conditions... so the illusion of free will is not at all analogous.

The illusion of free will in the brain is more akin to this visual illusion

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_5128262dad9ea489a9.png[/qimg]
​

In the above image notice the squares A and B....

They are exactly the same color... but try as much as you can you cannot see it.

You can prove it for yourself that they are indeed the same color EXACTLY the same color (RGB = 111,111,111) by loading the image in Paint Shop or similar software and use the color-picker tool and pick the color of the tiles and compare the RGB values... also compare the RGB values of the other tiles....

It is the most amazing illusion ever... in other illusions if you squint or twiddle your head or defocus the eyes or something you might be able to overcome the illusion.... in this one there is no way at all to shirk off the illusion.

The Free will illusion is analogous to this illusion ... not at all to pain.

Tilt the image on it's side. You can see the same color quite easily.

Oddly, that neatly applies to the argument against free will. It only seems to hold true if you force a perspective and lock onto it.

 

[Leumas]

Tilt the image on it's side. You can see the same color quite easily.

Oddly, that neatly applies to the argument against free will. It only seems to hold true if you force a perspective and lock onto it.

I rotated it 90° left and right and still no... what do you mean by tilt on its side?

 

[Thermal]

I rotated it 90° left and right and still no... what do you mean by tilt on its side?

Lding on my cel, I rotated 90 deg to the left. When I did it just now, I noticed my right thumb hovered over and blocked out much of the greeen cylander. The boxes looked to be the same shade.

Eta: that optical illusion works on pattern recognition, though. Your eyes pick up that A should be a dark square and B a light one. Bit of a far cry from negating free will.

 

[Leumas]

Lding on my cel, I rotated 90 deg to the left. When I did it just now, I noticed my right thumb hovered over and blocked out much of the greeen cylander. The boxes looked to be the same shade.

The whole illusion is based upon how the brain manipulates perception as compared to actual physical sensory inputs.

The cylinder casting a shadow in the 2D image is part of that scene which the brain tries to make sense of in its customary 3D perception… and hence the illusion.

So if you alter the image by removing the cylinder… you have altered what the brain is trying to construct as a scene in reality.

But rotating it any degrees in any direction does not make you see the A and B squares as the same color.

ETA: I cut out the cylinder altogether... still no... and even removed most of the other squares and still no... it is really uncanny.

 

[Leumas]

Eta: that optical illusion works on pattern recognition, though. Your eyes pick up that A should be a dark square and B a light one. Bit of a far cry from negating free will.

It is not negating free will... it is demonstrating how the brain can give illusions that make one PERCEIVE stuff that is not real.

What negates free will is the fact that not a single element of the process of making decisions is independent of physical reality, the environment, one's genes and what one has eaten or the temperature one is at in the instant of making the decision or the sum total of the trajectory that got one to that instant... including when... where... to whom... how ... one was conceived and born ... which is the start off point of that trajectory path along which not a single point was freely willed.

The illusion of the image is to illustrate by experiment and example how the brain can perceive what is not there.

Or unperceive what is there... like in the case of spinning at 1000 MPH while hurtling at 67,000 MPH through space and still feel like standing still on a flat surface.

 

[Olmstead]

Theoretically, I could build a machine that would show how my brain transforms input into output. But then the input would be me watching my brain. Then I could rebel against this determinism, but my fancy new machine would show me exactly how the input of me watching my brain made me decide on this impotent act of defiance.

Then I would hack my brain into doing whatever I want to do, creating a recursive loop of peak efficiency in which my brain makes me want to hack my brain to make me want to do what my brain made me want to do.

I might go insane at some point, but nothing a little consensual self-hacking can't solve.

 

[Leumas]

Theoretically, I could build a machine that would show how my brain transforms input into output. But then the input would be me watching my brain. Then I could rebel against this determinism, but my fancy new machine would show me exactly how the input of me watching my brain made me decide on this impotent act of defiance.

Then I would hack my brain into doing whatever I want to do, creating a recursive loop of peak efficiency in which my brain makes me want to hack my brain to make me want to do what my brain made me want to do.

I might go insane at some point, but nothing a little consensual self-hacking can't solve.

Not determinism... chaotic attractors... the chaotic turbulent flow of a river is not deterministic.

 

[Olmstead]

Not determinism... chaotic attractors... the chaotic turbulent flow of a river is not deterministic.

I probably lack the knowledge and understanding for that distinction to matter.

From what I understand, everything might be deterministic, we just don't know enough to see all the complex patterns down to the molecular level.

 

[Thermal]

It is not negating free will... it is demonstrating how the brain can give illusions that make one PERCEIVE stuff that is not real.

Not to get all Matrix or Brain in a Vat on you, but nothing we perceive is actually real.

What negates free will is the fact that not a single element of the process of making decisions is independent of physical reality, the environment, one's genes and what one has eaten or the temperature one is at in the instant of making the decision or the sum total of the trajectory that got one to that instant... including when... where... to whom... how ... one was conceived and born ... which is the start off point of that trajectory path along which not a single point was freely willed.

True enough, but only in the sense that we are not 100% "free" of influences, nor should we be expected to be. In terms of what we mean by free will, though, it's pretty much off to the side.

No matter what twists and turns brought us to the here and now, we can think, reason, and make choices. You can choose healthy habits, no matter your predisposition to unhealthy ones. Is this some kind of unencumbered free will you are railing against? I think all would agree that there is no pure, uninfluenced mind.

The illusion of the image is to illustrate by experiment and example how the brain can perceive what is not there.

Ya mine does that rather a lot. I still have free will.

Or unperceive what is there... like in the case of spinning at 1000 MPH while hurtling at 67,000 MPH through space and still feel like standing still on a flat surface.

Not really a valid comparison, considering the scale of movement and the atmosphere and all.

 

[Leumas]

The illusion of the image is to illustrate by experiment and example how the brain can perceive what is not there.

Ya mine does that rather a lot. I still have free will.

Yup... you do.

 

[Little 10 Toes]

I notice that you have a signature. No one made you to use that option. No one made you pick quotes. No one made you come to this website 11 years ago. No one has made you post, as of this moment, 5864 times.

I believe that is a quick answer to your free will question.

 

[psionl0]

I agree... and there are no gods or woowoo... you are right!!!

We know how we choose... as a result of neuronal firings in our brains... and those are the result of DNA and environmental factors.

Neither of which is a choice.

So have you stopped arguing that there is no free will because God inflicted all of these debilitating illnesses on humans?

 

[Leumas]

So have you stopped arguing that there is no free will because God inflicted all of these debilitating illnesses on humans?

No... you believe there is a sky daddy... and you believe he gave you free will... despite this sky daddy saying the opposite.

... For the purpose of this thread, we are assuming that God gave us the ability to make choices independently of any other universal factors.

So my argument is with YOUR sky daddy ... I am humoring you and granting you that he is real for the sake of the argument.

So after granting you your claim that there is a sky daddy... I show you that

1. He says with his own words that he did no such thing as give you free will... but on the contrary that you are predestined according to his plans that nothing can thwart
2. Regardless of what he said... the mere fact that he created people negates any free will ... but even worse... he created many with impediments to free will.

So ... he said that he predestined you... and his mere act of creating is negating free will... and his bungled up dismal design failures further negate free will... QED!!!

Moreover... the whole free will canard is a THEODICY apologists use to excuse their abusive husband sky daddy.


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