Destiny and Free will

[psionl0]

However... if one's species is able to do certain things ... and then certain individuals of that species are IMPEDED from doing what the rest of their species can do.. then they are not able to choose freely like the rest of their species can choose.... because they are impeded.

That is a ridiculous definition of free will. Nobody says that every person must be able to choose between the same options.

Under your definition, a rich healthy person has free will but a poor unhealthy person is just a bot.

 

[Leumas]

That is a ridiculous definition of free will. Nobody says that every person must be able to choose between the same options.

Under your definition, a rich healthy person has free will but a poor unhealthy person is just a bot.

The above is addled prattle... but... do you think a person with an IQ of 50 has the same free will as a person with 105?

 

[xjx388]

…do you think a person with an IQ of 50 has the same free will as a person with 105?

Diminished capacity to make choices in specific cases does not negate Free Will in general.

You are actually talking about something else entirely here with all the disabled/low IQ stuff. Privilege? Opportunity?

I don’t know, but it isn’t Free Will.

 

[Leumas]

Diminished capacity to make choices in specific cases does not negate Free Will in general.

You are actually talking about something else entirely here with all the disabled/low IQ stuff. Privilege? Opportunity?

I don’t know, but it isn’t Free Will.

I asked a specific question...

By your definition of Free will... as you understand... does a person with an IQ of 50 have the same free will as a person with 105?

• Yes
• No

Please explain your answer too.. i.e. why or why not... in what way...

Thanks!!!

 

[psionl0]

The above is addled prattle sound reasoning

ftfy.

... but... do you think a person with an IQ of 50 has the same free will as a person with 105?

Free will has nothing to do with IQ.

 

[xjx388]

I asked a specific question...

By your definition of Free will... as you understand... does a person with an IQ of 50 have the same free will as a person with 105?

• Yes
• No

Please explain your answer too.. i.e. why or why not... in what way...

Thanks!!!

I can’t answer that question in the way you want because it doesn’t really address Free Will as I understand it.

Free Will has nothing to do with any one specific individual’s capacity to make choices or limitations in the choices they can make as compared to other individuals.

A low IQ person may not have as many choices as a high-IQ person, but they still have choices. The question for everyone is this: Of the choices available to an individual, is the individual free to select among them or is their course of action pre-determined in some way?

I can go to bed right now. I can listen to music. I can play a video game. I could watch TV. I could call my brother. I can go clean up the kitchen. I can just sit here and chat with you. I’m going to end up doing one of these things (or something else I haven’t thought of yet). Even wheelchair bound or low IQ people have these kinds of choices everyday. Is what we end up doing a choice or are we just destined to do what we end up doing?

I believe in Free Will because that’s what it actually feels like to me. My choices have consequences. The same is true for any other human who is conscious. It’s much more intellectually satisfying than believing I have no choice in anything. The truth is that I can’t actually know the truth.

 

[Leumas]

ftfy.


Free will has nothing to do with IQ.

According to you "free will" is the magic wand with which you can pull the cape over the abject turpitude that is your deadbeat sky daddy and his bungling and ineptness, to allow all his sadistic crimes to drop down the trapdoor... completing the stage magic show of bamboozling the gullible cult members into thinking the legerdemain is real magic.

 

[Leumas]

I believe in Free Will because that’s what it actually feels like to me.

Does it feel like you are spinning at 1000 MPH right now around the center of the earth while also hurtling at a speed of 67,000 MPH in space??

No?? So you must not be doing it???

My choices have consequences. The same is true for any other human who is conscious.

You mean your reactions to the circumstances you have been precipitated into at the moment that you are making a choice... as a culmination of all but countless such instances along your life span.

Do you think that the making of choices is influenced by the brain/mind/psyche???

What influences the brain/mind/psyche???

It’s much more intellectually satisfying than believing I have no choice in anything. The truth is that I can’t actually know the truth.

Yup... and yup...

I can’t answer that question in the way you want because it doesn’t really address Free Will as I understand it.

So... now... in the light of the answers you gave to the above questions... can you answer the IQ question???

Is what we end up doing a choice or are we just destined to do what we end up doing?

Have a look at this video... are the balls making choices along the trajectory of their fall?? Are they predetermined/predestine??? Are they conscious???

So despite not being predestined or predetermined... and despite making choices... going left or right at each juncture... they are not endowed with free will.... are they??

 

[psionl0]

According to you "free will" is the magic wand with which you can pull the cape over the abject turpitude that is your deadbeat sky daddy and his bungling and ineptness to allow all his sadistic crimes drop down the trapdoor completing the stage magic show of bamboozling the gullible cult members into thinking the legerdemain is real magic.

GOTO 132

 

[Leumas]

GOTO 132

Are you familiar with Proverbs 26:11??

 

[psionl0]

Have a look at this video... are the balls making choices along the trajectory of their fall?? Are they predetermined/predestine??? Are they conscious???

You seriously can't tell the difference between a Galton board and and a person with free will?

It's no wonder you are getting so tied up in knots over this. You haven't got the foggiest notion whatsoever about free will and your attempt to tie it in to inanimate objects proves this.

 

[psionl0]

Are you familiar with Proverbs 26:11??

The way you are carrying on, I should be.

 

[Leumas]

GOTO 132

GOTO 132

The way you are carrying on, I should be.

I am not the one who keeps typing Goto back to old posts.

Which have already been demonstrated as nothing but piffle.

I get that you are angry because a God supposedly created a world with evil in it (or allowed man to bring evil into the world).

Nope... I do not believe in any gods... one cannot be angry at nothing.... unlike believers who keep supplicating and groveling and begging and genuflecting to nothing.

However, that doesn't entitle you to redefine free will just so that you can lump it in with the things you hate about God.

No... no... it is the believers who redefine free will to absolve their ABUSIVE BATTERING HUSBAND and tell themselves it is their fault ... if only they kissed his feet more and wiped away their tears off of his feet with their hair or if they just did not look at that other godman... this abusive battering husband would not have battered them... he is really a magnanimous loving husband deep down.

Well... I have news for them... they need to watch that Alfred Hitchcock movie called Psycho...

the tormenting abusive mother ... was... long dead and the abuse and torment was self-inflicted by the guy thinking he is his mother in bouts of schitsophrenic delusions

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_5128262d77f62a279e.jpg[/qimg]​

 

[psionl0]

I am not the one who keeps typing Goto back to old posts.

No, you just repeat your faulty claims even after they have been proven to be "vomit".

 

[Leumas]

You seriously can't tell the difference between a Galton board and and a person with free will?

Your strawmanning aside .... Yes I can ... it is you who cannot fathom the similarity.

 

[psionl0]

Your strawmanning aside .... Yes I can ... it is you everybody in the entire universe except for me who cannot fathom the similarity.

ftfy.

 

[Leumas]

You seriously can't tell the difference between a Galton board and and a person with free will?

Your strawmanning aside .... Yes I can ... it is you who cannot fathom the similarity.

Your strawmanning aside .... Yes I can ... it is you everybody in the entire universe except for me who cannot fathom the similarity.

ftfy.

You mean you defaced my post... and the ftfy stands for... ****** that for you... no???

And... unless you have conducted a survey and taken a poll of "everybody in the entire universe"... then your statement is blatantly an abject perfidy.

Nevertheless... I thank you for that display of fallacious irrationality... because it is only a sample of the fallacious illogic that is the Free Will magic wand which apologists use to absolve the abusive battering husband they call god.

And if you do not believe me see here.




.

 

[psionl0]

Nevertheless... I thank you for that display of fallacious irrationality... because it is only a sample of the fallacious illogic that is the Free Will magic wand which apologists use to absolve the abusive battering husband they call god.[/COLOR]

Free will has got nothing to do with "abusive battering husbands" nor any rationalization of their behaviour.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

My personal 2 cents.

If a truly omnipotent and all knowing deity would exist that created and runs the universe none of us would have free will. Everything would happen as pre-determined.
If such a being is still constrained by the laws of physics, or is not all knowing (and thus only set the start conditions without knowing what will happen later) then we would have free will.

Obviously, if there is/are no god(s), which is my personal conviction, then of course we do have free will.

But I do agree with some of the others here that free will or not has no bearing on whether the world is just.
IMO a truly omnipotent deity would have more in common with a Lovecraftian horror than anything we would understand.

And the deity described in the Abrahamic faiths I would hesitate to call 'good'. It's described as powerful and with a strong 'obey or suffer' slant, but in the various holy books even those that do believe suffer, just less than the non-believers, so I doubt such a being would care about unjust situations in the world.

 

[Leumas]

My personal 2 cents.

If a truly omnipotent and all knowing deity would exist that created and runs the universe none of us would have free will. Everything would happen as pre-determined.
If such a being is still constrained by the laws of physics, or is not all knowing (and thus only set the start conditions without knowing what will happen later) then we would have free will.

Obviously, if there is/are no god(s), which is my personal conviction, then of course we do have free will.

But I do agree with some of the others here that free will or not has no bearing on whether the world is just.
IMO a truly omnipotent deity would have more in common with a Lovecraftian horror than anything we would understand.

And the deity described in the Abrahamic faiths I would hesitate to call 'good'. It's described as powerful and with a strong 'obey or suffer' slant, but in the various holy books even those that do believe suffer, just less than the non-believers, so I doubt such a being would care about unjust situations in the world.

Just a few of questions if you do not mind...

1. Does the brain/mind/psyche have any bearing on making decisions?
2. If you answer yes to the above... can you quantify it... is it 100% of making decisions or 10% or ???
3. Does the environment affect the brain/mind/psyche?
4. Do genes have effects on the brain/mind/psyche
5. If you answered yes to the above two questions ... what percentage you think is environment and what percent is genetic