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Destiny and Free will

Lukraak_Sisser said:
...
And the deity described in the Abrahamic faiths I would hesitate to call 'good'. It's described as powerful and with a strong 'obey or suffer' slant, but in the various holy books even those that do believe suffer, just less than the non-believers, so I doubt such a being would care about unjust situations in the world.
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Here are some "slants" from the various "holy books"... and see here for more "slants"
  • Isaiah 14:26-27 ... For YHWH of hosts hath purposed, and who shall thwart it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
  • Psalm 139:13-16 ... all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
  • Proverbs 16:4 YHWH has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.
  • Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things.
  • Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and YHWH hath not done it?
  • Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I YHWH have deceived that prophet...
  • Exodus 7:3-5 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt... that I may lay my hand upon Egypt... and the Egyptians shall know that I am YHWH
  • Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate , them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
  • Ephesians 1:4-5 ... In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
  • Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
  • Romans 9:11-13 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth...
  • Romans 9:15-16 ... So then it is not of him that willeth , nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
  • Romans 9:21-23 Hath not the potter power over the clay , of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour ? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory ...
 
Thermal said:
I've come to the conclusion that the hiliting is entirely random.
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So... thanks for demonstrating how your conclusions are flawed....

But ... what conclusions do you have regarding these questions...
  1. Does the brain/mind/psyche have any bearing on making decisions?
  2. If you answer yes to the above... can you quantify it... is it 100% of making decisions or 10% or ???
  3. Does the environment affect the brain/mind/psyche?
  4. Do genes have effects on the brain/mind/psyche
  5. If you answered yes to the above two questions ... what percentage you think is environment and what percent is genetic
 
Leumas said:
Does it feel like you are spinning at 1000 MPH right now around the center of the earth while also hurtling at a speed of 67,000 MPH in space??

No?? So you must not be doing it???
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The fact that I'm doing all that is confirmed by science. Doesn't matter what it feels like to me, reality is reality and I understand what is actually happening.

Determinism vs Free Will is not and cannot be confirmed by science. It's a philosophical exercise. So what it feels like to me is pretty important in determining what I think about it.

You mean your reactions to the circumstances you have been precipitated into at the moment that you are making a choice... as a culmination of all but countless such instances along your life span.
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Uh, sure. That's a convoluted way of putting it, but sure.

Do you think that the making of choices is influenced by the brain/mind/psyche???
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Everything I think and feel isn't just "influenced" by my brain, it originates from my brain.

What influences the brain/mind/psyche???
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That's a weirdly posed question. Assuming you mean "brain development," my environment and my genes influenced the development of my brain. Other than that, there isn't some "soul" or other external force that influences my brain.

Yup... and yup...

So... now... in the light of the answers you gave to the above questions... can you answer the IQ question???
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I answered the question as best I could according to my understanding of Free Will. I guess the answer is: Yes, they have the same Free Will because Free Will has nothing to do with a particular individual's capacity to choose or the range of available choices as compared to other individuals.




Have a look at this video... are the balls making choices along the trajectory of their fall?? Are they predetermined/predestine??? Are they conscious???

So despite not being predestined or predetermined... and despite making choices... going left or right at each juncture... they are not endowed with free will.... are they??
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I understand the larger point you are attempting to make. I said it myself earlier. I cannot rule out the idea that there is no Free Will. That we are like those balls, essentially subject to randomness and physics, bouncing along until we end up where we end up with absolutely no choices to make about the matter.

That just doesn't feel right to me. And since it isn't at all possible to know the actual truth, I will choose Free Will.
 
xjx388 said:
The fact that I'm doing all that is confirmed by science. Doesn't matter what it feels like to me, reality is reality and I understand what is actually happening.

Determinism vs Free Will is not and cannot be confirmed by science. It's a philosophical exercise. So what it feels like to me is pretty important in determining what I think about it.

Uh, sure. That's a convoluted way of putting it, but sure.

Everything I think and feel isn't just "influenced" by my brain, it originates from my brain.

That's a weirdly posed question. Assuming you mean "brain development," my environment and my genes influenced the development of my brain. Other than that, there isn't some "soul" or other external force that influences my brain.

I answered the question as best I could according to my understanding of Free Will. I guess the answer is: Yes, they have the same Free Will because Free Will has nothing to do with a particular individual's capacity to choose or the range of available choices as compared to other individuals.

I understand the larger point you are attempting to make. I said it myself earlier. I cannot rule out the idea that there is no Free Will. That we are like those balls, essentially subject to randomness and physics, bouncing along until we end up where we end up with absolutely no choices to make about the matter.

That just doesn't feel right to me. And since it isn't at all possible to know the actual truth, I will choose Free Will.
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Thanks for the honest and intellectual answers.


 
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Leumas said:
Just a few of questions if you do not mind...
  1. Does the brain/mind/psyche have any bearing on making decisions?
  2. If you answer yes to the above... can you quantify it... is it 100% of making decisions or 10% or ???
  3. Does the environment affect the brain/mind/psyche?
  4. Do genes have effects on the brain/mind/psyche
  5. If you answered yes to the above two questions ... what percentage you think is environment and what percent is genetic
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This is just my personal view of course.
1. Yes, decisions are made in the brain (or maybe the extended neural system)
2. 100%
3. Yes
4. Yes
5 We don't know yet. In fact we have barely scratched the surface of how our brains work and what makes us intelligent.
 
Leumas said:
Nope... I do not believe in any gods... one cannot be angry at nothing.... unlike believers who keep supplicating and groveling and begging and genuflecting to nothing.




No... no... it is the believers who redefine free will to absolve their ABUSIVE BATTERING HUSBAND and tell themselves it is their fault ... if only they kissed his feet more and wiped away their tears off of his feet with their hair or if they just did not look at that other godman... this abusive battering husband would not have battered them... he is really a magnanimous loving husband deep down.

Well... I have news for them... they need to watch that Alfred Hitchcock movie called Psycho...
the tormenting abusive mother ... was... long dead and the abuse and torment was self-inflicted by the guy thinking he is his mother in bouts of schitsophrenic delusions





.
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Okay, yes. It sucks the sweat from dead monkey balls but the battered spouse is free to choose that course. Are you seriously suggesting that your (well deserved) disdain for that choice somehow means that person does not have free will because they made it? The defining feature of free will is that people can choose to do things we don't like.
 
Lukraak_Sisser said:
This is just my personal view of course.
1. Yes, decisions are made in the brain (or maybe the extended neural system)
2. 100%
3. Yes
4. Yes
5 We don't know yet. In fact we have barely scratched the surface of how our brains work and what makes us intelligent.
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Great....
:th:


Now.... can you answer these questions in the light of your above answers...
  1. If a person's brain is the source of their decisions... and if the environment and genetics have effects on one's brains... do you think that one's genetics and environment influence one's decisions??
  2. And since 100% of the decision is a brain process then 100% of the decision making process is influenced by the genetics and environment.... no??
  3. What % genetics and what environment is not known... but definitely X% Genes and Y% environment where X+Y = 100... you agree??
 
Leumas said:
So... thanks for demonstrating how your conclusions are flawed....

[snip]
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Kettle, meet pot.

Leumas said:
You mean you defaced my post... and the ftfy stands for... ****** that for you... no???

And... unless you have conducted a survey and taken a poll of "everybody in the entire universe"... then your statement is blatantly an abject perfidy.

Nevertheless... I thank you for that display of fallacious irrationality... because it is only a sample of the fallacious illogic that is the Free Will magic wand which apologists use to absolve the abusive battering husband they call god.

And if you do not believe me see here.
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Let's follow that "see here" link.


Leumas said:
Nope... I also say Professor Moriarty is evil but I still think he is pure fiction... just like your evil deadbeat sky daddy.

Yup... indeed... think about it hard and long... that is exactly what believers' arguments for free will along with all apologetics.... nothing more than the same pattern of rationalizations a battered wife does when she refuses to leave her abusive husband.

By the way... if you do not believe me read Jeremiah and Ezekiel


  • Jeremiah 3:1-11 .... thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith YHWH. .... as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness. ... thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

  • Ezekiel 16:15-38 ...play the harlot...pour out thy harlotries on every one that passed by...thou didst take of thy garments...and didst play the harlot... madest for thee images of men, and didst play the harlot with them... all thine abominations and thy harlotries...I will ... uncover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness..... I will bring upon thee the blood of fury and jealousy.
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I don't believe you about your claims or your Bible quotes since you have "interesting" habits.

Here's your quote from Jeremiah 3:1-11 ".... thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith YHWH. .... as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness. ... thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed."

Here's my cite https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah 3:1-11&version=NIV and here's the quote:
1 “If a man divorces his wife and she leaves him and marries another man, should he return to her again? Would not the land be completely defiled? But you have lived as a prostitute with many lovers— would you now return to me?” declares the Lord.
2 “Look up to the barren heights and see. Is there any place where you have not been ravished? By the roadside you sat waiting for lovers, sat like a nomad in the desert. You have defiled the land with your prostitution and wickedness.
3 Therefore the showers have been withheld, and no spring rains have fallen. Yet you have the brazen look of a prostitute; you refuse to blush with shame.
4 Have you not just called to me: ‘My Father, my friend from my youth,
5 will you always be angry? Will your wrath continue forever?’ This is how you talk, but you do all the evil you can.”
6 During the reign of King Josiah, the Lord said to me, “Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there.
7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it.
8 I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery.
9 Because Israel’s immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood.
10 In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense,” declares the Lord.
11 The Lord said to me, “Faithless Israel is more righteous than unfaithful Judah.
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Where's the battered wife / abusing husband stuff?

Edit: and what's up with picking on the victim? Are you saying that the abusing husband has no free will to beat the crud out of his wife?
 
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Thermal said:
Agreed. The language is notoriously imprecise for clinically defining the intangible.



Neurologists, psychologists, even philosophers and theologians. Neurologists on the most rank, though.



Thanks for clarifying. "Sensible" can be a slippery one, sometimes, and I've been bit before.



Tough one. Libset (sp?) ran a famous experiment, though widely discredited. Our current state of knowledge is likely insufficient to falsify or prove. Conceivably, we could trace down the neural billiard balls determining immediate thought processes, but back at the zygote stage, we'd be looking at the Butterfly effect writ large. But does being unable to mechanically test, given our current limitations, render the premise unfalsifyable? I think exceptions can be made when poking around frontiers blind. As in, we don't even know enough yet to know If the premise is falsifiable, so the null may be suspended while we explore?
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I guess I'm coming from the viewpoint of methodical naturalism, so my assumption about humans is that everything they do, including the decisions they make, is part of a causal chain. Often, when free will is invoked, it's somehow supposed to occur outside of that chain. It seems like it has to be metaphysical. Or quantum? but what does that get us?



Not following you. Learning enough to determine whether or not we have free will is central to understanding ourselves, and other frontiers such as AI



Flipping it: people generally think they make choices. They think about them. This is a subtle acknowledgement that the null is in fact free will existing, rather than something that needs demonstrating. We wouldn't have words like "choice" or "responsibility" without the implicit assumption of free will.
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Yeah, it feels like somewhere in our minds is a Command Central. I think, because of that, our language is loaded to reinforce that concept. Maybe that is why when people imagine gods, they imagine an uncaused cause, an unmoved mover. But what does it even mean? What would be the consequence if we were to (define and) disprove free will? What would we actually be missing out on?

I'm talking about libertarian free will, here. Compatibilist free will can be a bit vague and slippery, too, but it has uses and meaning.
 
psionl0 said:
Do we really need an ironclad definition of "free will"?

This is not a thread about determinism or probabilism. For the purpose of this thread, we are assuming that God gave us the ability to make choices independently of any other universal factors.
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Of course we need to define our terms if we're going to have a serious discussion. If you're just spitballing, that's cool. We're an online community, after all.

For the purposes of this thread, what I find interesting is 1) the whole idea of free will in the first place, and 2) how a theoretical omniscient observer could possibly change our decisions, whether free or, um, constrained.

To toss the community spitball around, I don't see how being observed changes anything. Let's say someone catches you on video freely making some decisions. Then they send that video back in time and someone watches you. When someone in the past attains foreknowledge of your decision, does that render it unfree? I don't think so. And neither would the observation of an observer that can see all points in time. Magic is fun!
 
psionl0 said:
You seriously can't tell the difference between a Galton board and and a person with free will?

It's no wonder you are getting so tied up in knots over this. You haven't got the foggiest notion whatsoever about free will and your attempt to tie it in to inanimate objects proves this.
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A biological system is made up of "inanimate" matter. Tell me, what is the fundamental difference between an inanimate system making decisions and a biological system making decisions?
 
Here's a thought experiment:

Imagine a man in a free-will universe (whatever that means for you). He makes 100 free-will decisions in 100 minutes.

Then imagine that the universe is rewound back a 100 minutes. Would you expect that man to make the exact same 100 decisions in the next 100 minutes, assuming he has free-will? Or would you expect him to make different decisions?

For me: I'd expect him to make the exact same decisions.

What do you think?
 
porch said:
For the purposes of this thread, what I find interesting is 1) the whole idea of free will in the first place, and 2) how a theoretical omniscient observer could possibly change our decisions, whether free or, um, constrained.
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porch said:
A biological system is made up of "inanimate" matter. Tell me, what is the fundamental difference between an inanimate system making decisions and a biological system making decisions?
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You are arguing that free will is impossible (which it may be in a deterministic universe).

That is completely different to what is being discussed in this thread. The OP seems to be arguing that God did not give anybody free will because he isn't fair or some people make evil choices or something.

Whether free will is something within our construction or it comes from some external factor is not relevant to this particular discussion.
 
psionl0 said:
You are arguing that free will is impossible (which it may be in a deterministic universe).
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What is that??? And what is our universe???

Why does it have to be deterministic to negate free will???

Can't random chance also result in no free will just like throwing dice... do the dice have free will ... yet the way they fall is random and indeterministic.


psionl0 said:
That is completely different to what is being discussed in this thread. The OP seems to be arguing that God did not give anybody free will because he isn't fair or some people make evil choices or something.
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Aha... so you are talking about a fairy tale universe not the real one.

In the real universe there are no gods.

But ... if the god you are talking about is your god of the bible... then even he said himself that this is a deterministic universe and there is no free will.... because he is the script writer the stage maker and the puppet master of the Punch and Judy show.


psionl0 said:
Whether free will is something within our construction or it comes from some external factor is not relevant to this particular discussion.
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WOW.... so Free Will is a thing that comes from outside of human existence?????

I know you think that we have souls that are not part of our bodies that are driving our bodies like we drive cars.... is that what you mean???


psionl0 said:
Whether free will is something within our construction or it comes from some external factor is not relevant to this particular discussion.
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What does that mean??? Do you mean that our brains produce free will??

Again you are talking about it as if it is some kind of a magical entity???

If you are saying that our decisions (i.e. choices) are made by our brains... then BINGO!!!

And if our brains are the effectors of our decisions ... then... I have bad news for you...

Whether you like it or not the brains everyone ends up with are not chosen.

And the neuronal firings within them that produce actions and reactions ... are not chosen but a result of both the DNA that they are made of as well as the net sum of the environmental trajectory they have gone through since they started firing.

I suggest you watch this video again...



.
 
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Leumas said:
Great....
:th:


Now.... can you answer these questions in the light of your above answers...
  1. If a person's brain is the source of their decisions... and if the environment and genetics have effects on one's brains... do you think that one's genetics and environment influence one's decisions??
  2. And since 100% of the decision is a brain process then 100% of the decision making process is influenced by the genetics and environment.... no??
  3. What % genetics and what environment is not known... but definitely X% Genes and Y% environment where X+Y = 100... you agree??
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I don't see where you are going with this, but I''ll try
1: Yes, of course the interplay between a brain and the environment influences ones decisions. That's the bit we can even simulate with basic AI's
2: I really do not understand this one, to me it is just a repeat of question 1. The decisions are made by the brain, based upon the environment. How our brain works is determined by genetics.
3: Why would you separate this? We have a very vague idea on how a biological neural network forms and, as far as I know, no idea yet why at some point this creates consciousness and intelligence. But this is formed by an interplay of genetics and environment.
We know that if you damage a brain via trauma this can alter a person's self, even though the genetics are the same.
We also know that a person that grows up in a similar environment with a difference in genetics (XXY syndrome) will never have the same intellectual capacities as someone with only XX or XY.
We also know that two persons with the exact same genetic basis (identical twins) who grow up in a similar environment still become different persons.

However, just because we do not know *how* it works does not mean at any point supernatural intervention is needed. And imo only a supernatural intervention can stop us having free will.
We have the ability to choose, even if we do not know how we choose.

But that does not mean all choices to all people will be equal. I can choose to try and outrun a train. That doesn't mean it will work.
I had the ability to choose to learn a different language when I grew up. But when I was a child my parents chose not to speak any language but our own so that never happened.
People in impoverished countries have the ability to choose not to drink water infested with parasites, but it does mean they will die of dehydration.
People in the west have the ability to choose to eradicate said parasites, but that means paying taxes for no direct gain ourselves and thus we choose not to so.

The fact that free will exists in no point ensures the world is fair.
I'd even turn it around. The unfairness of the world in general would indicate free will exists. A god that pre-determines everything and is powerful enough to create a universe would have things running better.
 
Lukraak_Sisser said:
I don't see where you are going with this, but I''ll try
1: Yes, of course the interplay between a brain and the environment influences ones decisions. That's the bit we can even simulate with basic AI's
2: I really do not understand this one, to me it is just a repeat of question 1. The decisions are made by the brain, based upon the environment. How our brain works is determined by genetics.
3: Why would you separate this? We have a very vague idea on how a biological neural network forms and, as far as I know, no idea yet why at some point this creates consciousness and intelligence. But this is formed by an interplay of genetics and environment.
We know that if you damage a brain via trauma this can alter a person's self, even though the genetics are the same.
We also know that a person that grows up in a similar environment with a difference in genetics (XXY syndrome) will never have the same intellectual capacities as someone with only XX or XY.
We also know that two persons with the exact same genetic basis (identical twins) who grow up in a similar environment still become different persons.

However, just because we do not know *how* it works does not mean at any point supernatural intervention is needed. And imo only a supernatural intervention can stop us having free will.
We have the ability to choose, even if we do not know how we choose.

But that does not mean all choices to all people will be equal. I can choose to try and outrun a train. That doesn't mean it will work.
I had the ability to choose to learn a different language when I grew up. But when I was a child my parents chose not to speak any language but our own so that never happened.
People in impoverished countries have the ability to choose not to drink water infested with parasites, but it does mean they will die of dehydration.
People in the west have the ability to choose to eradicate said parasites, but that means paying taxes for no direct gain ourselves and thus we choose not to so.

The fact that free will exists in no point ensures the world is fair.
I'd even turn it around. The unfairness of the world in general would indicate free will exists. A god that pre-determines everything and is powerful enough to create a universe would have things running better.
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The brain is where decisions are made.
The brain is affected by the environment
The brain is affected and effected by the DNA

Ergo... decisions are affected by the environment and affected and effected by the genes

One's genes are not willed
One's environment in any instance X is the net sum of the trajectory of paths taken as a result of the effects of numerous decisions and circumstances in numerous instances prior to the instance X since one's conception.

Where one is born to whom and when and with what genes are not willed
One's decisions are the result of one's genes and environment

Ergo... one's decisions are not willed.

One may be deluded that one decides... just like one is deluded that they are not hurtling through space at 67,000 MPH while spinning at 1000 MPH.
 
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