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Destiny and Free will

Leumas said:
People who are born with congenital diseases do not have the same luxury of choosing paths that they cannot follow even if they wanted to follow them and the path was right there presented to them....

If a Spina Bifida child wanted to play in the play ground that she can see all the other children playing in right in front of her eyes... cannot do that despite wanting to do that and choosing to do that.

If you cannot appreciate this ... go visit a children's hospital.
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What made you think that 'free will' means equal opportunities?
In fact, what makes you think the world should be fair?

Hans
 
MRC_Hans said:
What made you think that 'free will' means equal opportunities?
In fact, what makes you think the world should be fair?

Hans
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Leumas's arguments against free will are basically the same as his arguments against God. "The world does not measure up to my standards, therefore [the thing in question] must not exist."

I suspect if everyone suddenly decide to agree with him about free will and God, he will immediately turn those same arguments (only needing to substitute a few words) against something else. Happiness, perhaps. "How can anyone be happy when there are children suffering from congenital birth defects?" "Anyone who is happy despite knowing they're going to die eventually must be a deluded idiot." Or maybe beauty. "You call that woman beautiful but I know she eats dead animals." "How can we call that garden beautiful when all the plants are forced to grow in the foul fetid decomposing wastes and remains of other formerly living things?"

I wish he'd cut to the chase and just tell us that nothing exists because it would all suck too much if it did.
 
MRC_Hans said:
What made you think that 'free will' means equal opportunities?
In fact, what makes you think the world should be fair?

Hans
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Seriously???

Ok let's see...

Two people are faced with a staircase that leads up to a classroom... or an elevator.

One is in a wheelchair ... the other is able to walk.

Both want to take the staircase to the classroom instead of the lift.

Can the wheelchair person exercise their free will to go up the stairs???
 
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Myriad said:
Leumas's arguments against free will are basically the same as his arguments against God. "The world does not measure up to my standards, therefore [the thing in question] must not exist."

I suspect if everyone suddenly decide to agree with him about free will and God, he will immediately turn those same arguments (only needing to substitute a few words) against something else. Happiness, perhaps. "How can anyone be happy when there are children suffering from congenital birth defects?" "Anyone who is happy despite knowing they're going to die eventually must be a deluded idiot." Or maybe beauty. "You call that woman beautiful but I know she eats dead animals." "How can we call that garden beautiful when all the plants are forced to grow in the foul fetid decomposing wastes and remains of other formerly living things?"

I wish he'd cut to the chase and just tell us that nothing exists because it would all suck too much if it did.
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The above is abject ad hominem strawman calumny and perfidy... thanks for that... I expected no less.
 
Leumas said:
Seriously???

Ok let's see...

Two people are faced with a staircase that leads up to a classroom... or an elevator.

One is in a wheelchair ... the other is able to walk.

Both want to take the staircase to the classroom instead of the lift.

Can the wheelchair person exercise their free will to go up the stairs???
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Yes…or at least they can try. They can certainly choose to sit there and fret about how it’s so unfair they can’t use the stairs. They can choose to keep bumping up the first step or two, only for gravity to win. They can try until they fall out of the chair in frustration. Those are all valid exercises of free will.

Just as I can stand next to Lebron James on a basketball court and we both choose to dunk the ball. Only one of us will succeed. But I can try.
 
MRC_Hans said:
In fact, what makes you think the world should be fair?
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I do not think it is ... it is the sky daddy thumpers who say their sky daddy created them and gave them free will and is an all loving deadbeat daddy.

I am not arguing against atheists... if you are not an atheist ... then it is your sky daddy who said so.... if you are an atheist... then why are arguing with me I am arguing with sky daddy thumpers who state that their sky daddy is the one who made them and is an all loving father who loves all his creation equally.... no???
 
xjx388 said:
Yes…or at least they can try. They can certainly choose to sit there and fret about how it’s so unfair they can’t use the stairs. They can choose to keep bumping up the first step or two, only for gravity to win. They can try until they fall out of the chair in frustration. Those are all valid exercises of free will.

Just as I can stand next to Lebron James on a basketball court and we both choose to dunk the ball. Only one of us will succeed. But I can try.
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Thanks for that heart melting compassion and concern and empathy and sympathy you have just not displayed for congenitally disabled people..... I expected nothing less!!!

xjx388 said:
Just as I can stand next to Lebron James on a basketball court and we both choose to dunk the ball. Only one of us will succeed. But I can try.
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I suggest you go visit a children's hospital one day... maybe Lebron James will take you there and explain to you how not being able to dunk a ball is not remotely the same as not being able to walk or or or or because of debilitating congenital diseases.

But thanks for that demonstration of lack understanding of the struggle of disabled people.... well done!!!
 
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Leumas said:
Thanks for that heart melting compassion and concern and empathy and sympathy you have just not displayed for congenitally disabled people..... I expected nothing less!!!
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Oh spare me the sanctimony. I answered your ridiculous question. A wheelchair bound individual can choose to insist upon the stairs and eschew the elevators. It would not end well. Of course, they could ask the other person to help push them up…and that person could choose to help or not. The point is that your little scenario does not disprove the notion of Free Will. In fact we often exercise it to our own detriment. Participating in this charade of a thread for example…
 
You're not describing free will, you're describing free want!
 
Leumas said:
No this proves that you have no appreciation for what REALITY is like for disabled people.

If a child born with no arms wanted to reach out and grab a toy like he wants to do and the toy is right there and he chooses to grab it... he cannot because he has no arms with which to exercise his free will to choose to grab the toy.

If you cannot appreciate that ... then ah well... I do not know hot to make you understand this.
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I get that you are angry because a God supposedly created a world with evil in it (or allowed man to bring evil into the world).

However, that doesn't entitle you to redefine free will just so that you can lump it in with the things you hate about God.
 
psionl0 said:
I get that you are angry because a God supposedly created a world with evil in it (or allowed man to bring evil into the world).
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Nope... I do not believe in any gods... one cannot be angry at nothing.... unlike believers who keep supplicating and groveling and begging and genuflecting to nothing.

psionl0 said:
However, that doesn't entitle you to redefine free will just so that you can lump it in with the things you hate about God.
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No... no... it is the believers who redefine free will to absolve their ABUSIVE BATTERING HUSBAND and tell themselves it is their fault ... if only they kissed his feet more and wiped away their tears off of his feet with their hair or if they just did not look at that other godman... this abusive battering husband would not have battered them... he is really a magnanimous loving husband deep down.

Well... I have news for them... they need to watch that Alfred Hitchcock movie called Psycho...
the tormenting abusive mother ... was... long dead and the abuse and torment was self-inflicted by the guy thinking he is his mother in bouts of schitsophrenic delusions

​




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psionl0 said:
Your constant attempts to convince everybody that this "nothing" is evil suggests otherwise.
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Nope... I also say Professor Moriarty is evil but I still think he is pure fiction... just like your evil deadbeat sky daddy.


psionl0 said:
:jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp
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Yup... indeed... think about it hard and long... that is exactly what believers' arguments for free will along with all apologetics.... nothing more than the same pattern of rationalizations a battered wife does when she refuses to leave her abusive husband.

By the way... if you do not believe me read Jeremiah and Ezekiel


  • Jeremiah 3:1-11 .... thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith YHWH. .... as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness. ... thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

  • Ezekiel 16:15-38 ...play the harlot...pour out thy harlotries on every one that passed by...thou didst take of thy garments...and didst play the harlot... madest for thee images of men, and didst play the harlot with them... all thine abominations and thy harlotries...I will ... uncover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness..... I will bring upon thee the blood of fury and jealousy.
 
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Leumas said:
Yup... indeed... think about it hard and long... that is exactly what believers' arguments for free will along with all apologetics.... nothing more than the same pattern of rationalizations a battered wife does when she refuses to leave her abusive husband.
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I can't believe that you are doubling down on this stupidity.

Is there anybody in the entire universe (other than yourself) who believes that free will means freedom from the consequences of your choices?
 
psionl0 said:
I can't believe that you are doubling down on this stupidity.
Is there anybody in the entire universe (other than yourself) who believes that free will means freedom from the consequences of your choices?
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The above is sordid strawmanning and perfidious misrepresentation.
 
psionl0 said:
Unless you can come up with another reason for linking free will with battered wives, the above is 100% accurate.
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Go read my post again... try to do it slowly and carefully and think about what it says ... if you cannot get it then keep trying... it will come to you eventually.


psionl0 said:
... who believes that free will means freedom from the consequences of your choices?
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But keep in mind that your above statement is still sordid strawmannning and perfidious misrepresentation regardless of whether you get it or not.

This is how reality works... whether you can perceive it or not ... it still remains reality... just because you made up your own version does not make it right.... and if you try again you might eventually perceive the reality you have been misperceiving.
 
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