Cont: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine (2)

[Klimax]

the fundamental problem of Communism is how information needs to flow - top-down control can only work when bottom-up information is moving swiftly and accurately.
An A.I. system using real-life data could probably manage it.

Chile with help of IBm tried it. System called Cybersyn based on cybernetics/theory of system.

Experiment prematurely terminated by coup.

I would have been against it, but it is looking more and more necessary. Given that the war will slowly grind in Russia's favour towards an inevitable battlefield victory without NATO air power coming to the rescue, I now see it as worth doing.

Also: bonus video of Russian helicopter getting shot down.

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1500038514037202947

Will it? Inevitable? Russians would love your certainty.

Thread continued from here

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=357183

Posted By: jimbob

 

[trustbutverify]

Or:

- NATO says NO because it doesn't want to start a nuclear war.

- NATO says NO because Ukraine was always just a sacrificial pawn in NATO/US geopolitical power games (maintain unipolar global hegemony).

So if NATO provides a no fly zone, it's responsible for starting a nuclear war, and if they don't it's guilty of sacrificing Ukraine for the sake of politics.

I hope someone's paying you to type this drivel.

 

[Michel H]

What you describe there is "make absolutely 100% certain that the territorial integrity of Ukraine will forever be destroyed", which is kinda the precise and exact opposite of "help preserve the territorial integrity of Ukraine".

Protecting the western part of Ukraine doesn't mean renouncing its eastern and southern parts.

It seems to me that, if NATO could have the courage to send troops in the western regions of Ukraine, after a request by the legitimate government, at least, refugees would have somewhere to go, and the Ukrainians would no longer be so desperate.

In 1939, the U.K. and France declared war on Germany because of the invasion of Poland, which was, in my opinion, a terribly counter-productive move (no details here) and an overreaction.

In this situation, when we have a country (Russia) with dictatorial tendencies which attacks its western neighbor, using mostly fake reasons for justification, it is not desirable to declare war on Russia (good that NATO doesn't do it), and NATO is right to not impose a no-fly zone over Ukraine (Zelensky requests it, but this would involve shooting down Russian planes right away and would be very dangerous; in addition, it's not really up to NATO to decide who may or may not fly over Ukraine).

But, there is, in my opinion, much more that NATO can do to help Ukraine, in addition to sending mostly light weapons, which include Stinger anti-aircraft and Javelin anti-tank missiles.

NATO could send quickly a large number of armed drones, used by the U.S. military, warplanes (and provide training for Ukrainian pilots), and send a protection ground force in the west of Ukraine.

On the political side, Ukraine could also renounce Crimea, and the two independent republics of Donbass.

Everyone is baffled as to why Ukraine has not done more to attack the Russian convoy as it is a sitting duck for drone and airstrikes.

There are several possible explanations, Ukraine may be running out of armed drones and its small, outnumbered air force may be wary of being shot down by Russian air defence batteries.

Ben Barry from the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) suggests the Ukrainians may well be safeguarding what resources they do have in readiness to counter-attack when the Russians get closer to Kyiv.

(https://www.bbc.com/news/world-60617145).

 

[angrysoba]

Will it? Inevitable? Russians would love your certainty.

I certainly hope not. I just worry that ultimately they have too much firepower on their side.

While the Russian military is crap, there is just a LOT more of it and with a lot more firepower.

I certainly hope that Ukraine can stave off the Russians, but it would be an amazing feat if accomplished.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

Alina Kabaeva, a woman believed to be Putin's mistress and a gymnast claims the western world is hypocritical :

“I believe that there has never been a more shameful page in the history of world sports. The leadership of many international sports organizations has been engaged in completely unsportsmanlike affairs for a long time and under various pretexts. Now it is no longer hidden. Their “concern” for the world is as hypocritical as the fight for a clean sport. They have not removed from the competition any country that participated in the destruction of hundreds of thousands of civilians in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, Syria. But sports officials were very angry when Russia decided to protect the Donbass and Lugansk from the Nazis, ”she said.

I'm always puzzled if being so close to Putin does she actually believe this propaganda or is she is a willing participant?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Ceasefire roundup


The ceasefire was due to begin at 09:00 local time (07:00 GMT), with the first evacuations starting two hours later

Mariupol's deputy mayor said Russian troops were still shelling the city, and fighting continued on the agreed escape route

Ukraine postponed the evacuation, with civilians in Mariupol being told of the news via loudspeaker

Russia's defence ministry said civilians had not used the escape routes - and accused Ukrainian authorities of preventing people from leaving
It says Ukrainian "nationalists" prevented civilians from leaving the the cities, according to Russia's Ria news agency.
The ministry said that Russian forces came under fire after it had set up humanitarian corridors for civilians to leave the city.

 

[Michel H]

Alina Kabaeva, a woman believed to be Putin's mistress and a gymnast claims the western world is hypocritical :



I'm always puzzled if being so close to Putin does she actually believe this propaganda or is she is a willing participant?

There is some intelligence in her analysis, but it is obvious that what Putin is doing is much more than protecting the two republics of Donbass.

 

[angrysoba]

I'm always puzzled if being so close to Putin does she actually believe this propaganda or is she is a willing participant?

Most Russians apparently completely buy into Russian propaganda.

A friend of mine from Russia, called his dad to talk about this and his dad was saying something like "I am really against this war. If only the Ukrainians were not doing their nazi genocide thing..."

 

[Andy_Ross]

Ukraine said 66,000 men have returned home from abroad to fight

 

[Wildy]

Protecting the western part of Ukraine doesn't mean renouncing its eastern and southern parts.

...

On the political side, Ukraine could also renounce Crimea, and the two independent republics of Donbass.

Hmmmm... These look rather contradictory to me.

 

[acbytesla]

I almost never agree with presitge about anything but I do the "actual philosophy of communisma'.
I don't give a rat's butt about comnunism n the abstract. All I care about is how it worked in the real world, and the real world is has been a total failure at best, and a murder machine as bad as anything the world has seen at it's worst.
I don't see how anybody can make excuses for it.

The problem of course, is it's not communism at that point. Not exactly a surprise that some individuals would wave the noble goals of communism and then do something else. Hitler's party is the National Socialist party. In practice it was never Socialist. It was Hitler's party. Kind of like today's GOP. They wave the American flag but it isn't really about America, it's about Trump.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

Most Russians apparently completely buy into Russian propaganda.

A friend of mine from Russia, called his dad to talk about this and his dad was saying something like "I am really against this war. If only the Ukrainians were not doing their nazi genocide thing..."

I'm not asking about the general population. We're talking about a woman who is as close to Putin as you can get. She is speculated by some as his mistress and by others to actually be his wife (that he divorced his current wife and married her in secret). It is believed he is the father of her children.

So she is someone very close to him - which makes me wonder how much she buys into things or does she know what the heck is going on for real.

 

[Michel H]

Hmmmm... These look rather contradictory to me.

It depends on what you call Ukraine, and on what the Ukrainian borders should be.

I believe Ukraine should renonce Russian-speaking Crimea and the two Russian-speaking republics of Donbass, and should have done it a long time ago to prevent this war.

Making these political concessions could perhaps still save many lives.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Partial 'cease fire' to start this morning.





Time for Russia to take stock and reflect...

Time for Russia to restock, refuel, rearm and regroup, I rather suspect.

 

[Oystein]

It depends on what you call Ukraine, and on what the Ukrainian borders should be...

it's actually pretty easy:
Get out a map of Europe, locate Ukraine, behold its borders.

 

[Wildy]

It depends on what you call Ukraine, and on what the Ukrainian borders should be.

Well in the case of Ukraine they believe the borders should include the parts you believe should belong to Russia. I get that you don't and that's why you don't see it as contradictory.

I believe Ukraine should renonce Russian-speaking Crimea and the two Russian-speaking republics of Donbass, and should have done it a long time ago to prevent this war.

Why should Ukraine give up the entirety of the Donbass and Luhansk regions based on a "referendum" where only the people in the separatist controlled regions voted? Why doesn't the Ukraine controlled part get to decide which country they should belong to? Or do you simply believe that the language people speak automatically determines which country they want to belong to?

Making these political concessions could perhaps still save many lives.

Or it won't do anything because those concessions are meaningless to the actual goal.

 

[Andy_Ross]

CocaCola has announced it is pulling it's products from Russia.

 

[trustbutverify]

I'm not asking about the general population. We're talking about a woman who is as close to Putin as you can get. She is speculated by some as his mistress and by others to actually be his wife (that he divorced his current wife and married her in secret). It is believed he is the father of her children.

So she is someone very close to him - which makes me wonder how much she buys into things or does she know what the heck is going on for real.

Have you read her Wikipedia page? It pretty much answers all questions.

 

[jimbob]

Time for Russia to restock, refuel, rearm and regroup, I rather suspect.

Yup

 

[angrysoba]

I'm not asking about the general population. We're talking about a woman who is as close to Putin as you can get. She is speculated by some as his mistress and by others to actually be his wife (that he divorced his current wife and married her in secret). It is believed he is the father of her children.

So she is someone very close to him - which makes me wonder how much she buys into things or does she know what the heck is going on for real.

If she's Putin's mistress and she supports it, she's a gangster's moll. Frankly I don't really care whether she is a true believer or someone putting on a front. It amounts to the same.