The Russian Invasion of the Ukraine.

[lobosrul5]

If you want to be cynical - sent to Siberia. But no, so they will be protected under the Geneva conventions. And, if not, then command responsibility will mean Putin can be tried for war crimes.

How many war crimes did he commit in Chechnya? His punishment sure seems ... nonexistent.

 

[jimbob]

I was referring to ISF tankies.

Indeed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie

According to The Independent, after the Prague Spring, "In Communist Party circles, including those of the British CP, the term 'tankie' was subsequently used to describe those party members who supported the crushing of the Prague Spring by force of arms."[2] According to Christina Petterson, "Politically speaking, tankies regard past and current socialist systems as legitimate attempts at creating communism, and thus have not distanced themselves from Stalin, China, etc."[3]

According to The Guardian, "tankie" has re-emerged as internet slang for Stalinists, used by other leftist Marxists.[4] According to Vice, the contemporary expression is particularly popular among young democratic socialists.[5] Modern tankies generally do not get along with non-Marxist–Leninist segments of the left and many of those who oppose tankies also consider themselves leftists.[6]

 

[theprestige]

I wonder if this business will encourage the RN to, you know, actually get antiship missiles?

A credible naval opponent that called for an immediate interim missile program, rather than just waiting for the next-gen missiles to be developed, would encourage the RN to continue development of an interim anti-ship missile.

Right now, the navies that could potentially require a next-gen anti-ship missile probably won't be ready for a next gen conflict until the next gen missiles are already available anyway.

 

[Jimbo07]

A credible naval opponent that called for an immediate interim missile program, rather than just waiting for the next-gen missiles to be developed, would encourage the RN to continue development of an interim anti-ship missile.

Old antiship missiles can be quite potent against older targets, especially when the opponent overwhelms the ability of your submarines to sink old garbage. It's the long-standing thing in the West to have expensive, high-tech gear at the expense of numbers.

Right now, the navies that could potentially require a next-gen anti-ship missile probably won't be ready for a next gen conflict until the next gen missiles are already available anyway.

That just means that there will always be a marketplace for researching/selling/buying the next weapon!

 

[jimbob]

How many war crimes did he commit in Chechnya? His punishment sure seems ... nonexistent.

Indeed, which is what that comment was.

I've got a good deal on some cash from a Nigerian prince, just give me £10k and I can release a billion old Zimbabwae dollars for you.

Hell, using WMDs with little care in the UK was another. Plenty of crimes like that.


As an aside - my brother asked what Putin would do if he'd been told that he'd had 6 months to live? It made me wonder about his bloated appearance recently.

 

[Andy_Ross]

deleted

 

[theprestige]

And, if not, then command responsibility will mean Putin can be tried for war crimes.

Aw, bless. I cannot even begin to imagine the color of the sky in this fantasy dreamland where anyone will ever put Putin on trial for war crimes.

 

[Jimbo07]

Aw, bless. I cannot even begin to imagine the color of the sky in this fantasy dreamland where anyone will ever put Putin on trial for war crimes.

Nor a U.S. president, for that matter.

That's not a statement of culpability, nor equivalence. Instead, it's a statement on the likelihood of either country extraditing a leader to the ICC.

Speaking of, does anybody with a better knowledge of history than I have know of any efforts to quantify the deterrent effect of previous warcrimes trials on the current commission of warcrimes?

 

[Planigale]

Why do you think any insurgents captured in a firefight with Russian troops will survive to be 'prosecuted under the Geneva conventions'?

Do you think the Russian troops or Putin will care?

I think you deliberately misunderstand my post? If Ukrainians are part of a well organised militia and mistreated then Putin will have command responsibility and be liable for prosecution. If they are civilians as the Ukrainian president seems to be promoting then they will not have the protection of the Geneva conventions.

My personal opinion is that informal resistors to invaders are entitled to protection under the Geneva conventions, but the US has opposed that view.

 

[Planigale]

Aw, bless. I cannot even begin to imagine the color of the sky in this fantasy dreamland where anyone will ever put Putin on trial for war crimes.

Strangely you are not the first person to say this about me!

I am not totally living in a fantasy world, I think the chances of Putin actually being punished is slim. But Russia cannot veto the ICJ bringing a case for war crimes against Putin, and who knows Putin's successor may find it convenient to extradite him?

 

[Tero]

They also threatened Sweden over Nato membership.
Anybody who doubts that Russia, under Putin, has become a thug nation is indulging in wilful ignorance.

Sweden has no border with Russia. Yet.

 

[jimbob]

Strangely you are not the first person to say this about me!

I am not totally living in a fantasy world, I think the chances of Putin actually being punished is slim. But Russia cannot veto the ICJ bringing a case for war crimes against Putin, and who knows Putin's successor may find it convenient to extradite him?

How?

Putin would be too influential for any successor to leave alive.

Putin knows that he is dead when he relinquishes power.

 

[Jimbo07]

Putin knows that he is dead when he relinquishes power.

You miswrote:

Putin knows he will relinquish power when he is dead!

 

[Andy_Ross]

I think you deliberately misunderstand my post? If Ukrainians are part of a well organised militia and mistreated then Putin will have command responsibility and be liable for prosecution. If they are civilians as the Ukrainian president seems to be promoting then they will not have the protection of the Geneva conventions.

My personal opinion is that informal resistors to invaders are entitled to protection under the Geneva conventions, but the US has opposed that view.

Putin doesn't care.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Ukrainian forces appear to have halted Russian advances in the Donbass region.
That’s where Ukraine has its best troops.
It could be that the Russians are using the Donbass front to fix these troops whilst they make a dash for Kiev.

 

[Meadmaker]

If you want to be cynical - sent to Siberia. But no, so they will be protected under the Geneva conventions. And, if not, then command responsibility will mean Putin can be tried for war crimes.

Waging a war of aggression is already a war crime if you go back to Nuremburg as precedent.


The problem is that in order to prosecute, they first have to lose the war, and lose it badly enough that you capture the leader (i.e. Putin) or upset his own people enough that there is a coup and they turn him over.

I don't see either one happening.

 

[Vixen]

There is a bit of a shift. The strange situation is that Finnish nationalists/racists are pro-Russia.

The left has taken a slight shift to the Nato side. So has center, Niinistö. See tweets:
https://mobile.twitter.com/jmkorhon...8DpmxIQI4j4cu9FJ1RiVq1Sb0UhU1qVVB9QZ9oR7k8RiA

I haven't noticed that. Former Perussuomalaiset (Basic Finns)* leader, Jussi Halla-Aho and academic, has been tweeting even before the invasion that Finland should be sending arms and military equipment to the Ukraine.
The Kokomus (Coalition [Conservative]) are all for strong 'sanctions', together with the RKP (ruotsinkielinen Swedish Speakers), but stops short at that so far. It is the SDP (Social Democratic) ruling party (Prime Minister Sanna Marin) who is hesitating about ditching the Fennovoima (joint nuclear energy) project with Russia, instead settling for a 'wait and see' delayed response. It is now suspended for now but not cancelled.

The Left (Vasemmisto - socialist) are a minority although Li Andersson is enormously popular, as Education Minister, and Foreign Office, Pekka Haavisto, Green Party. It used to be in the old days that the Communist Party ran 'friendship' schemes with Russia and exchange trips but they hardly exist at all any more.

It is not my perception that Finland's 'far right' or even 'far left' have much affinity with Russia.

*The PS - perse for short [the Finnish slang for backside) - are not really far Far Right, more just right of Centre, a bit like UKIP, rather than Britain First or whatever.

The Centre (Keskusta) traditionally represents the agricultural sector and although leftish, is anti-Communist in its constitution, as with the Centre Party in other nordic countries.

President Niinisto did already say he wanted to apply to NATO in his new years day message but didn't specify a date.

It is not so that the PS are in favour of Russia at all AFAICS.

 

[Vixen]

There is some speculation that the troops being sent in first are the new recruits, as cannon fodder and the better units are being kept in reserve.

I saw some of these on television, before the invasion. They looked like kids. Had been waiting around for days, cold, hungry, bored.

Some mothers will be weeping tonight.

 

[Vixen]

More threats against Finland:

This Russian foreign ministry spokesman Maria Zakharova, together with Putin and all of his government must be brought to justice for war crimes. In the interim, Ms Zaharova must be banned from ever setting foot on Finnish soil. All Russian property and assets in Finland should be frozen or confiscated. They have been buying up summer dachas in great numbers as Finland is a popular retreat. Yet, they want to rape the country and steal our freedom and happiness.

When I first heard this I laughed out loud but then I was shaking with ice cold anger or fear. Now I am in a state of shock.


On personality tests I usually score in the 'peace maker' category, introvert, laid back, but I cannot begin to express how much I despise and loathe Maria Zakharova. I am having to restrain myself from telling you what I really think of this abominable piece of slime.

 

[Vixen]

Yeah this is starting to look like a major domestic policy misstep from Putin. Possibly his first major domestic policy misstep. If Ukrainians are Russians, and Putin is willing to bomb Russians, what are other Russians supposed to conclude from that, other than Putin is willing to bomb them too?

The thing is, the Russian people have always been treated as little more than lowly serfs by their masters. Time for them to revolt again!