Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Marras]

I haven't had time to search for the one you want but there is a good article 10 September 1918, no. 4137, analysing what happened in West Finland during the Red Uprising. As you know, Turku was pretty red. I assume you are actually interested.

ETA if you look on page 4 of the above - nr. 4137 - you will find an account of how someone on a journey to church was ambushed by a bunch of reds, taken to a forest and shot. This happened 7 Feb 1918. The headline is: 'Maanwiljelia Kärjen murha kirkkomatkalla'. (NB: 'v' was written as 'w' then.)

I was interested in searching for that particular article. Like I said, I found articles about Red atrocities, but couldn't find the correct search terms for finding a murder happening on Härkätie. Part of the reason why I was interested in it was that the name Härkätie fell out of active use already a couple of centuries ago and it was very curious that someone would still use it in 1918 to refer to contemporary events.

But anyway, don't spend time trying to search for that one. That a Finnish White newspaper would report about atrocities (both real and imagined) committed by Reds is not an extraordinary claim needing special proof.

What is extraordinary is your claim that Times published accounts based on information sent by spies embedded into German armed forces. Spend your time searching those articles.

I don't believe that you will ever give us an accurate reference for that. I believe that you misremembered what you read long time ago and now your ego prevents you from admitting that.

[Edited to add something completely irrelevant to Estonia, just a tangent for the Härkätie tangent: doing a bit more searching in digitaaliarkisto I noticed that the name 'Härkätie' was in active use at Somero in the early 20th century. So it is plausible that someone discussing a murder happening at Somero (a few Whites were murdered there) could use it in a newspaper report. I couldn't find printed references to the name in a non-historical context from any other place.]

 

[zooterkin]

These are some more of my questions you er, "missed" Vixen.

Incidentally, would you like to provide the page reference for your claim that the WG was a hospital ship, or that hospital ships were painted a distinctive grey colour during WWII? Remember, you claimed it was in that book I own.

She did finally admit she was wrong about that:

OK, so I erred.

 

[JesseCuster]

If that was a ship carrying highly sensitive Russian/Soviet stuff as ordered by KSI/CIA and escorted by a Swedish submarine accordingly, then being halted so dramatically in the middle of its journey will obviously raise suspicions of an inside job and I am afraid the captain and his officers would be prime suspects as it is the captain's job to ensure all rules and regulations have been followed.

Ok.

And what does this have to do with the Stockholm police chief?

Remember this is a response as to why the Stockholm police chief would be itching to interview the officers.

How did he know about the smuggling of Russian stuff? How did he know the ship sank because if sabotage? How did he know the officers had anything to do with it?

Is the sinking of Estonian passenger liners in international waters in his jurisdiction to investigate?

Why were the crew disappeared on CIA rendition flights to black sites to be put on secret trial if they were apprehended because the Stockholm police chief was itching to interview them? Did he interrogate them at a CIA black site?

What the **** are you rambling about?

 

[Marras]

The guys told to bring in the senior officers will have been appraised in advance who they are looking for, together with photos and personal details.

If someone can't talk, you send him to hospital and wait until he is better.

Remember, you are claiming that the secret helicopter flight took of in 15 minutes after the alert.

You are now claiming that in that 15 minutes they could get a special-operations guy, brief him about the mission with photos and personal details, and to get him in the helicopter to execute the mission.

 

[JesseCuster]

The fact Svensson openly chatted to reporters at Berga, shows he would not have known what was planned for the people he rescued.

Why was Secret Agent Frogman Y64 Svensson openly chatting to reporters about his mission? Bad secret agent. Probably why he needed bribing with medals.

 

[Vixen]

And if there are people on the lifeboats you weren't expecting, what do you do? Throw them back in? Apologize for the inconvenience and leave to look for the lifeboat you want?

They disappear as well.

 

[Vixen]

Better question is why would they go to the trouble of rescuing them, and then killing them, but not returning their bodies to the wreck to be "found" by the divers?

Seems like a no-brainer in this mythical spy-world you live in.

They have to rescue them to arrest them.

 

[Vixen]

And the Swedish do this? Often?

Can you post a link to the last time they did anything close to what you're alleging here?

The two Egyptian fellows it disappeared, contrary to the Rome 1998 convention.

 

[Vixen]

And their job was to rescue people in the water, a few if which were Swedes.

At that stage they do not know whether it is a terrorist attack.

 

[Vixen]

1. A ship sinking is not necessarily a crime.
2. SOME police are suspicious. While researching stuff for this ridiculous thread I've learned that Swedish police tend to be forward-thinking folks who are constantly initiating new programs so they can do their jobs better, AND support prison/rehabilitation reforms in order to keep crime from being committed in the first place.

3. As a result on #2, Sweden has really good police from the streets to their investigative arms. If there was a crime behind the sinking of Estonia they would have found it.

As I said, I am 100% sure Bildt knew exactly what the cause of the accident was.

Ask yourself, who would be above the law in this case? (Hint: someone not democratically elected.)

 

[LondonJohn]

The two Egyptian fellows it disappeared, contrary to the Rome 1998 convention.

No, Vixen. We've been through this numerous times now.

Sweden didn't "disappear" those two men. It deported them. What Egypt did with the men once they arrived back in Cairo.... is a totally separate matter from what Sweden did or did not do.

 

[Vixen]

Is that why Vixen keeps mistaking him for a helicopter?

A helicopter winch and a whole helicopter crew to bring him to safety should danger strike, he heroically saved seven or eight persons. However, how is this worth more in terms of a medal than a solider in Afghanistan surrounded by road bombs, mortar shell and snipers, who only got silver?

 

[LondonJohn]

As I said, I am 100% sure Bildt knew exactly what the cause of the accident was.

Ask yourself, who would be above the law in this case? (Hint: someone not democratically elected.)

Contrary to your ludicrous hyperbole about being "100% sure", this is of course an entirely worthless (and entirely baseless*) claim. As per usual.


* Call it a wild hunch, but I'm guessing you don't have any actual evidence to support your ridiculous expression of certitude on this matter?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The two Egyptian fellows it disappeared, contrary to the Rome 1998 convention.

The Egyptians they sent back to Egypt? So they sent the ship's officers back to Estonia. We should look for them there.

 

[LondonJohn]

A helicopter winch and a whole helicopter crew to bring him to safety should danger strike, he heroically saved seven or eight persons. However, how is this worth more in terms of a medal than a solider in Afghanistan surrounded by road bombs, mortar shell and snipers, who only got silver?

Oooh, oooh, I know the answer to this one!

It's as follows: you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

They have to rescue them to arrest them.

But you don't have to arrest them to disappear them. You arrest them if you intend to detain them lawfully. You do keep deliberately muddling these concepts up.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

At that stage they do not know whether it is a terrorist attack.

So they didn't know it was the officers wot dunnit. No rush for mission impossible. Just rescue everyone you can, detain them and see who you've got.

 

[LondonJohn]

But you don't have to arrest them to disappear them. You arrest them if you intend to detain them lawfully. You do keep deliberately muddling these concepts up.

Yes - I'm pretty sure that when James Bond captured Mr White by shooting him in the leg, bundling him into the boot of the Aston Martin, and driving him across international borders into Italy... he didn't bother to arrest Mr White in the process.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

As I said, I am 100% sure Bildt knew exactly what the cause of the accident was.

As we said, you have no credible evidence to suggest he did.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

A helicopter winch and a whole helicopter crew to bring him to safety should danger strike, he heroically saved seven or eight persons. However, how is this worth more in terms of a medal than a solider in Afghanistan surrounded by road bombs, mortar shell and snipers, who only got silver?

He did his duty. When a colleague was injured he stepped in and took over his duties.