Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Vixen]

"If". With no evidence of smuggling on that voyage and obviously none of a pointless submarine escort, that's a very shaky "if".

What "if" the Russians had already threatened to sink it as you like to speculate? Takes the heat off an inside job, doesn't it?

Nothing about it explains "disappearing" the officers.

The Russians (or whoever it was) cannot do it without insider help or to knowledge that something was 'irregular'.

The Captain rang Stockholm ahead during the journey to say there was an extra consignment on board (=lorry). The Customs guys want to know this in advance, not in the middle of the journey.


If the Russians were 'tipped off' then that too, is insider knowledge.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Vixen, please answer my questions.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The Russians (or whoever it was) cannot do it without insider help or to knowledge that something was 'irregular'.

The Captain rang Stockholm ahead during the journey to say there was an extra consignment on board (=lorry). The Customs guys want to know this in advance, not in the middle of the journey.


If the Russians were 'tipped off' then that too, is insider knowledge.

So if they weren't tipped off until after the ship sailed, how did they get the assassins/saboteurs aboard or a submarine in to position to fire torpedoes?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The Russians (or whoever it was) cannot do it without insider help or to knowledge that something was 'irregular'.

The Captain rang Stockholm ahead during the journey to say there was an extra consignment on board (=lorry). The Customs guys want to know this in advance, not in the middle of the journey.


If the Russians were 'tipped off' then that too, is insider knowledge.

The spetsnaz don't need no stinkin' inside help. They just strike like the Spanish Inquisition. What help would they need? Where to place their explosives to sabotage something? They're trained for that and ferry crew are not.

So the captain told the Swedish customs there was an extra lorry? Aside from wondering if that actually happened, I can't see any problem there. He did his job. Even if it was more smuggling, the customs people would be primed to just let it through anyway, right? No reason the captain was in on anything.

No hint any Russians did anything so no hint anyone tipped anyone off.

A house of cards, most of which are imaginary.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

A helicopter rescue man is not a border guard.

Border guard, pilot, commander, winchman, Stockholm police deputy. That guy Svensson wore a lot of hats, one of them apparently a very lifelike propeller beanie.

Indeed, Vixen is willing to believe he wore every hat except that of substitute rescue man for Y 74.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

"If". With no evidence of smuggling on that voyage and obviously none of a pointless submarine escort, that's a very shaky "if".

If my grandmother made tracks, she'd be a minisub.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

How many "posh" lifeboats were there? What is the probability that all the officers and only the officers would be in one? What is the probability that's the first one you find? What's the probability someone else finds it before you?

Why does if matter who finds them?

And if there are people on the lifeboats you weren't expecting, what do you do? Throw them back in? Apologize for the inconvenience and leave to look for the lifeboat you want?

 

[Axxman300]

What happened to the senior crew of Estonia who were originally listed as 'survivors'?

Better question is why would they go to the trouble of rescuing them, and then killing them, but not returning their bodies to the wreck to be "found" by the divers?

Seems like a no-brainer in this mythical spy-world you live in.

 

[Axxman300]

I don't know if it was, 'an atrocity committed by Russia'. However, I do know Sweden immediately covered it up.

Cool, please point out that paperwork using Wikileaks:

https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:Sweden

I'm sure it's in there somewhere...if it was covered up...

 

[Axxman300]

The thing is, Vixen, that I’ve just searched the forum for posts by Axxman300 that include the word “covered”. None of them includes your quotation.

I strongly suspect that you are lying again.

I didn't.

I pointed out that there were better examples of wartime censorship to use instead of quoting what Nazi Germany said, or didn't say about the sinking of a troop ship.

I probably should point out that Tianamen Square is yet another stupid example as the whole world knew what happened, saw what happened, and still knows what happened. Chinese censorship is internal, and in that case is mostly a pipe-dream.

A quick look at how Sweden handles this kind of thing shows they tend to keep things close to the vest. To me it seems to be a social habit for them. Even our NTSB has a pattern of issuing an initial statement with a general outline of the event, and a few months later they'll release an update on the investigation, and then later the final report is released. If it's a big event they'll have a press conference.

Vixen is blowing smoke with her web of unrelated tangents.

 

[Axxman300]

Holy crap. Y64 was not a person. Y64 was a helicopter.

I'm close to concluding that you must - by now - be doing this on purpose. Because even a child, once they'd read a few of the relevant posts in this thread, would easily have figured out that "Y64", "Y74", etc refer to helicopters and not to specific human beings (nor even specific groups of human beings).

"64...Y64..."

 

[Axxman300]

There are elite 'trident' teams of frogmen who are trained to do exactly all of that stuff, you know.

I'd really, really, really love to hear how they train for that.

Lady, you're really putting the "BS" in SBS.

 

[Axxman300]

The Defence Forces work on a 'need to know' basis so if you tell 'Agent Y64' to bring in the senior crew, that is all he needs to know. It will not be for him to know anything about other plans, such as prosecution, classification or disappearance. The fact Svensson openly chatted to reporters at Berga, shows he would not have known what was planned for the people he rescued.

And the Swedish do this? Often?

Can you post a link to the last time they did anything close to what you're alleging here?

 

[Axxman300]

KSI officers are allowed to set up front companies and join criminal gangs, if it is in the course of their work.

Why the KSI and not the SAPO?

https://www.sakerhetspolisen.se/en/swedish-security-service.html

Judging from their incredibly bland website they seem to be competent.

The KSI page has a nice dog on it, so I like them already. But I don't see Swedish intelligence, military or civilian involved in the recovery, or the sinking, or anything which followed.

 

[Axxman300]

I think that he should have had his report taken seriously. The JAIC is presumed neutral, so why shouldn't it have listened to the shipbuilder's views from an independent academic expert in his field.

I want to hear from:

The guy who designed it.

The guys who built it.

The guys who maintained it.

The guys who physically inspected the bow visor after the sinking.

I don't need to hear from some "academic" because the JAIC was already utilizing a few in the investigation.

Fun Fact: You can find an academic to support any hypothesis in existence (Bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster, Nuclear Weapons never existed).

 

[Axxman300]

It is very simple. First you rescue people and then you identify them by asking their name and date of birth.

Why would you need elite "trident frogmen" to do this? Your average Red Cross volunteer does this every day.

 

[Axxman300]

If you were Stockholm's Police Chief, you would be aching to interview the ship's officers.

Stop feigning naivete.

That was Björn Eriksson, who was also Vice President of Interpol at the time.

The problem here is that you have to explain why he would want to talk to anyone until there is evidence of a crime being committed. As of yet, there is still no evidence of a crime in relation to the sinking of MS Estonia.

 

[Axxman300]

They are members of the armed forces who are guarding their country.

The ones from Berga are navy guys.

And their job was to rescue people in the water, a few if which were Swedes.

 

[Axxman300]

Police are suspicious. It is their job to be suspicious. If a passenger ferry sinks in half an hour to the bottom of the sea, you should be very very suspicious. If you are a good detective you will already be determined that the culprits will not get away by hook or by crook.

Sillaste was brought into Turku in handcuffs.

1. A ship sinking is not necessarily a crime.
2. SOME police are suspicious. While researching stuff for this ridiculous thread I've learned that Swedish police tend to be forward-thinking folks who are constantly initiating new programs so they can do their jobs better, AND support prison/rehabilitation reforms in order to keep crime from being committed in the first place.

3. As a result on #2, Sweden has really good police from the streets to their investigative arms. If there was a crime behind the sinking of Estonia they would have found it.

 

[Mojo]

Border guard, pilot, commander, winchman, Stockholm police deputy. That guy Svensson wore a lot of hats, one of them apparently a very lifelike propeller beanie.

Is that why Vixen keeps mistaking him for a helicopter?